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Mongo


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Tony Moeaki anyone? Reply with quote

Sorry for your loss of Dennis Pitta. I see youíve signed Vinny Schancoe. I think heís washed up. I was curious if youíd be interested in Tony Moeaki from KC? He doesnít really fit in KCís long term plans. They drafted Travis Kelce and signed Anthony Fasano.

Moeaki has been hampered throughout his pro and college career by injuries. Last year was unimpressive coming off of an ACL. He flashed as a rookie.

For a conditional R4 pick, I bet KC would give him up. The conditions being 40 catches. If you get that out of him heís well worth an R4. If he doesnít catch 40, then itís an R5.

His salary is not too bad and the beauty is his contract is up at the end of the year.

What do you say? Rent Tony Moeaki for a year at the price of R4/5?
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Tony Moeaki anyone? Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
Sorry for your loss of Dennis Pitta. I see youíve signed Vinny Schancoe. I think heís washed up. I was curious if youíd be interested in Tony Moeaki from KC? He doesnít really fit in KCís long term plans. They drafted Travis Kelce and signed Anthony Fasano.

Moeaki has been hampered throughout his pro and college career by injuries. Last year was unimpressive coming off of an ACL. He flashed as a rookie.

For a conditional R4 pick, I bet KC would give him up. The conditions being 40 catches. If you get that out of him heís well worth an R4. If he doesnít catch 40, then itís an R5.

His salary is not too bad and the beauty is his contract is up at the end of the year.

What do you say? Rent Tony Moeaki for a year at the price of R4/5?


How is it a beauty that his contract is up after this year? If anything, that's terrible. We already have Pitta to sign long-term (assuming it's not career threatening) and at worst, Moeaki is a later move from Dickson considering Moeaki can't even stay healthy.

Trading a conditional 4th round pick for a year rental of an oft-injured player would never happen. Unless, of course, he decided to sign an extension for very low money which is incentive laden, but that won't happen either.

No thanks.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand why any team would pay that much for an injury prone player that has torn an ACL and at best simply flashed talent. Ed Dickson was drafted in the 3rd round and has also "flashed" talent.

If anything Moeaki is probably worth a 6th, maybe a conditional 5th but it would require something more like 55+ catches. This isn't the NBA, expiring contracts aren't a good thing when you're talking about a guy you're trading for. What's the point of wasting a high pick on him when you can pickup a decent TE in the mid-rounds that you can keep for a few years on a really cheap deal as opposed to just a one year rental? Just doesn't make sense. It's got to be right player, right price.

Even if Dickson goes down *knock on wood* I still would be against paying something that egregious and would prefer sticking with our guys. But I'd be down for this if like I said, it were a 6th I'd be all for it.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
I don't understand why any team would pay that much for an injury prone player that has torn an ACL and at best simply flashed talent. Ed Dickson was drafted in the 3rd round and has also "flashed" talent.

If anything Moeaki is probably worth a 6th, maybe a conditional 5th but it would require something more like 55+ catches. This isn't the NBA, expiring contracts aren't a good thing when you're talking about a guy you're trading for. What's the point of wasting a high pick on him when you can pickup a decent TE in the mid-rounds that you can keep for a few years on a really cheap deal as opposed to just a one year rental? Just doesn't make sense. It's got to be right player, right price.

Even if Dickson goes down *knock on wood* I still would be against paying something that egregious and would prefer sticking with our guys. But I'd be down for this if like I said, it were a 6th I'd be all for it.


Well, in fairness one "value" of his deal expiring is (A) we wouldn't be on the hook for any salary long-term with Pitta ostensibly being resigned next season and (B) Ozzie could let him walk and receive some form of comp pick if he performs reasonably well (a subject I have spoken about particularly due to the new "salary floors" to be enforced in the near future).

I don't really want him, but thought that I would point that out. On a side note, I unfairly just really dont like him, primarily due to the endless pimping by KC fans proclaiming their team the most talented team of all teams to ever exist as teams with talent (TBF its a certain subset of KC fans).
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Thomas5737


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
I don't understand why any team would pay that much for an injury prone player that has torn an ACL and at best simply flashed talent. Ed Dickson was drafted in the 3rd round and has also "flashed" talent.

If anything Moeaki is probably worth a 6th, maybe a conditional 5th but it would require something more like 55+ catches. This isn't the NBA, expiring contracts aren't a good thing when you're talking about a guy you're trading for. What's the point of wasting a high pick on him when you can pickup a decent TE in the mid-rounds that you can keep for a few years on a really cheap deal as opposed to just a one year rental? Just doesn't make sense. It's got to be right player, right price.

Even if Dickson goes down *knock on wood* I still would be against paying something that egregious and would prefer sticking with our guys. But I'd be down for this if like I said, it were a 6th I'd be all for it.


Well, in fairness one "value" of his deal expiring is (A) we wouldn't be on the hook for any salary long-term with Pitta ostensibly being resigned next season and (B) Ozzie could let him walk and receive some form of comp pick if he performs reasonably well (a subject I have spoken about particularly due to the new "salary floors" to be enforced in the near future).

I don't really want him, but thought that I would point that out. On a side note, I unfairly just really dont like him, primarily due to the endless pimping by KC fans proclaiming their team the most talented team of all teams to ever exist as teams with talent (TBF its a certain subset of KC fans).


A traded player can be cut at any time without a cap hit anyway, correct? It would help the team trading him that they didn't have to eat any guaranteed money, I don't think that benefits the team he is traded to in any way.
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Mongo


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
I don't understand why any team would pay that much for an injury prone player that has torn an ACL and at best simply flashed talent. Ed Dickson was drafted in the 3rd round and has also "flashed" talent.

If anything Moeaki is probably worth a 6th, maybe a conditional 5th but it would require something more like 55+ catches. This isn't the NBA, expiring contracts aren't a good thing when you're talking about a guy you're trading for. What's the point of wasting a high pick on him when you can pickup a decent TE in the mid-rounds that you can keep for a few years on a really cheap deal as opposed to just a one year rental? Just doesn't make sense. It's got to be right player, right price.

Even if Dickson goes down *knock on wood* I still would be against paying something that egregious and would prefer sticking with our guys. But I'd be down for this if like I said, it were a 6th I'd be all for it.
He's worth more to KC than an R6. BAL has legitimate Super Bowl aspirations, but the WR/TE corp is in disarray. Jacoby Jones is not a legitimate WR2. Pitta was going to be the go to guy.

Vinnie Schiancoe is not the answer. Not that Moeaki replaces Pitta, but he's a far better option than VS. Moeki caught 47 balls his rookie year and 33 last year in a "rehab" season. Schiancoe will be lucky to make your team, yet alone catch 20 balls.

The Ravens need help if they are to repeat. That's why you trade for someone, even Tony Moeaki. Legitimate Super Bowl runs don't come every year.

Besides, since when is an R4 a high pick? If Moeaki catches 40 balls as TE2, the Ravens will be in the Super Bowl hunt. A conditional R4 would fall at the end of the round. It's a pittance.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
I don't understand why any team would pay that much for an injury prone player that has torn an ACL and at best simply flashed talent. Ed Dickson was drafted in the 3rd round and has also "flashed" talent.

If anything Moeaki is probably worth a 6th, maybe a conditional 5th but it would require something more like 55+ catches. This isn't the NBA, expiring contracts aren't a good thing when you're talking about a guy you're trading for. What's the point of wasting a high pick on him when you can pickup a decent TE in the mid-rounds that you can keep for a few years on a really cheap deal as opposed to just a one year rental? Just doesn't make sense. It's got to be right player, right price.

Even if Dickson goes down *knock on wood* I still would be against paying something that egregious and would prefer sticking with our guys. But I'd be down for this if like I said, it were a 6th I'd be all for it.
He's worth more to KC than an R6. BAL has legitimate Super Bowl aspirations, but the WR/TE corp is in disarray. Jacoby Jones is not a legitimate WR2. Pitta was going to be the go to guy.

Vinnie Schiancoe is not the answer. Not that Moeaki replaces Pitta, but he's a far better option than VS. Moeki caught 47 balls his rookie year and 33 last year in a "rehab" season. Schiancoe will be lucky to make your team, yet alone catch 20 balls.

The Ravens need help if they are to repeat. That's why you trade for someone, even Tony Moeaki. Legitimate Super Bowl runs don't come every year.

Besides, since when is an R4 a high pick? If Moeaki catches 40 balls as TE2, the Ravens will be in the Super Bowl hunt. A conditional R4 would fall at the end of the round. It's a pittance.

1) And...

Every team in the NFL should have Super Bowl aspirations at the start of the season. Every team should aspire to be the best. Ozzie proved this offseason and the last few offseasons and has even stated as much that he's not going to sell out for a Super Bowl. He's going to stick to his same approach. Every team has a weakness/Achilles heal.

And our WR/TE situation might be a concern. But our options haven't proven to be bad. They are simply not experienced in game situations. And really though, this team has made it to AFCCG with no receiver cracking the 1k mark the past two years. We've made an AFCCG with less receiving talent than we have now. Also you act like the Ravens didn't just spend a 4th round pick on an H-back that can make plays in the passing game. So we're not in some sort of desperate need for a TE simply because Pitta went down with injury. We have solutions for the TE problem.

2) We have a strong team largely because we build this team through the draft. Clearly you have no idea of Ozzies track record if you think a 4th round pick isn't a significant team resource. In fact, the irony of your statement... Dennis Pitta, the guy who went down and inspired you to make this thread... Was taken in the 4th round of the draft... But hey, pittance right?
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
I don't understand why any team would pay that much for an injury prone player that has torn an ACL and at best simply flashed talent. Ed Dickson was drafted in the 3rd round and has also "flashed" talent.

If anything Moeaki is probably worth a 6th, maybe a conditional 5th but it would require something more like 55+ catches. This isn't the NBA, expiring contracts aren't a good thing when you're talking about a guy you're trading for. What's the point of wasting a high pick on him when you can pickup a decent TE in the mid-rounds that you can keep for a few years on a really cheap deal as opposed to just a one year rental? Just doesn't make sense. It's got to be right player, right price.

Even if Dickson goes down *knock on wood* I still would be against paying something that egregious and would prefer sticking with our guys. But I'd be down for this if like I said, it were a 6th I'd be all for it.
He's worth more to KC than an R6. BAL has legitimate Super Bowl aspirations, but the WR/TE corp is in disarray. Jacoby Jones is not a legitimate WR2. Pitta was going to be the go to guy.

Vinnie Schiancoe is not the answer. Not that Moeaki replaces Pitta, but he's a far better option than VS. Moeki caught 47 balls his rookie year and 33 last year in a "rehab" season. Schiancoe will be lucky to make your team, yet alone catch 20 balls.

The Ravens need help if they are to repeat. That's why you trade for someone, even Tony Moeaki. Legitimate Super Bowl runs don't come every year.

Besides, since when is an R4 a high pick? If Moeaki catches 40 balls as TE2, the Ravens will be in the Super Bowl hunt. A conditional R4 would fall at the end of the round. It's a pittance.


The Ravens are built for long-term success. Trading a 4th round pick just to replace a guy for a single year (despite having a 3rd round pick TE stepping in) is not a long-term move. That's a short-sighted move, something that Ozzie doesn't do. If we were interested in simply repeating this year, we wouldn't have let 9 starters walk. We are more concerned about being in position to win for the next 5 years, not just this year. There is 0 reason to trade a 4th round pick (which is valuable to us as we hit a good amount in the later rounds) for a TE for one year who has very similar stats to the guy who is already filling in for Pitta.

Moeaki Career Stats: 80 catches, 1009 yards, 4 TDs
Dickson Career Stats: 86 catches, 905 yards, 6 TDs

In Dickson's one year as the top TE (2011), he had a better year than Moeaki has ever had. Dickson certainly is no slouch, he's just not as well rounded as Pitta. In a Caldwell offense, though, an athletic TE is a big piece and Dickson has the flexibility to play in-line, as an H-back, or even split out wide.

Bottom line: There is no need for Moeaki really, especially for a mid-round pick. That's not how perennial contenders are built.
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Mongo


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
Mongo wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
I don't understand why any team would pay that much for an injury prone player that has torn an ACL and at best simply flashed talent. Ed Dickson was drafted in the 3rd round and has also "flashed" talent.

If anything Moeaki is probably worth a 6th, maybe a conditional 5th but it would require something more like 55+ catches. This isn't the NBA, expiring contracts aren't a good thing when you're talking about a guy you're trading for. What's the point of wasting a high pick on him when you can pickup a decent TE in the mid-rounds that you can keep for a few years on a really cheap deal as opposed to just a one year rental? Just doesn't make sense. It's got to be right player, right price.

Even if Dickson goes down *knock on wood* I still would be against paying something that egregious and would prefer sticking with our guys. But I'd be down for this if like I said, it were a 6th I'd be all for it.
He's worth more to KC than an R6. BAL has legitimate Super Bowl aspirations, but the WR/TE corp is in disarray. Jacoby Jones is not a legitimate WR2. Pitta was going to be the go to guy.

Vinnie Schiancoe is not the answer. Not that Moeaki replaces Pitta, but he's a far better option than VS. Moeki caught 47 balls his rookie year and 33 last year in a "rehab" season. Schiancoe will be lucky to make your team, yet alone catch 20 balls.

The Ravens need help if they are to repeat. That's why you trade for someone, even Tony Moeaki. Legitimate Super Bowl runs don't come every year.

Besides, since when is an R4 a high pick? If Moeaki catches 40 balls as TE2, the Ravens will be in the Super Bowl hunt. A conditional R4 would fall at the end of the round. It's a pittance.


The Ravens are built for long-term success. Trading a 4th round pick just to replace a guy for a single year (despite having a 3rd round pick TE stepping in) is not a long-term move. That's a short-sighted move, something that Ozzie doesn't do. If we were interested in simply repeating this year, we wouldn't have let 9 starters walk. We are more concerned about being in position to win for the next 5 years, not just this year. There is 0 reason to trade a 4th round pick (which is valuable to us as we hit a good amount in the later rounds) for a TE for one year who has very similar stats to the guy who is already filling in for Pitta.

Moeaki Career Stats: 80 catches, 1009 yards, 4 TDs
Dickson Career Stats: 86 catches, 905 yards, 6 TDs

In Dickson's one year as the top TE (2011), he had a better year than Moeaki has ever had. Dickson certainly is no slouch, he's just not as well rounded as Pitta. In a Caldwell offense, though, an athletic TE is a big piece and Dickson has the flexibility to play in-line, as an H-back, or even split out wide.

Bottom line: There is no need for Moeaki really, especially for a mid-round pick. That's not how perennial contenders are built.

If Dickson replaces Pitta, who replaces Dickson? Sciancoe? Good luck with that.
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Mongo


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:

1) And...

Every team in the NFL should have Super Bowl aspirations at the start of the season. Every team should aspire to be the best. Ozzie proved this offseason and the last few offseasons and has even stated as much that he's not going to sell out for a Super Bowl. He's going to stick to his same approach. Every team has a weakness/Achilles heal.

And our WR/TE situation might be a concern. But our options haven't proven to be bad. They are simply not experienced in game situations. And really though, this team has made it to AFCCG with no receiver cracking the 1k mark the past two years. We've made an AFCCG with less receiving talent than we have now. Also you act like the Ravens didn't just spend a 4th round pick on an H-back that can make plays in the passing game. So we're not in some sort of desperate need for a TE simply because Pitta went down with injury. We have solutions for the TE problem.

2) We have a strong team largely because we build this team through the draft. Clearly you have no idea of Ozzies track record if you think a 4th round pick isn't a significant team resource. In fact, the irony of your statement... Dennis Pitta, the guy who went down and inspired you to make this thread... Was taken in the 4th round of the draft... But hey, pittance right?

Oh I have the utmost respect for the Ravens franchise and how they've been built. I'm a fan, having lived in Harrisburg PA (90 mins north). I've been to BAL many times. Great city!

While every team publicly will say they have Super Bowl aspirations, there are some who simply don't have a realistic chance. The Ravens are not one of those teams.

The Ravens success is attributed to astute drafting. And their success in R4 is impressive. But for every Dennis Pitta, Le'Ron McClain or Jarrett Johnson, there's a Demetrius Williams or Marcus Smith. So, yes, a late R4 is a pittance and in no way compromises BAL's draft-first methodology.

As an outsider looking in, as is, I don't see this team having the horses to defeat Cincinnati in it's own division, yet alone win a Super Bowl. But then again, I never thought they'd get one last year. We'll see.

Good luck with this season and enjoy!
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gooselovechild


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick question: if Moeaki is going to be marginalized by a rookie and a journeyman TE, why would anyone trade for him at all?

It would be more prudent to wait the Chiefs out and just claim him when he gets cut, or buy low on him at the end of camp with a conditional 7th if he meets certain game or performance measurables.

But quite frankly, I don't see any reason to believe that Moeaki would be anything better than what we have in Furstenburg, and he doesnt have a bad knee. Its wishful thinking to believe that the Chiefs could finagle a conditional 4th for him at this point.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
Mongo wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
I don't understand why any team would pay that much for an injury prone player that has torn an ACL and at best simply flashed talent. Ed Dickson was drafted in the 3rd round and has also "flashed" talent.

If anything Moeaki is probably worth a 6th, maybe a conditional 5th but it would require something more like 55+ catches. This isn't the NBA, expiring contracts aren't a good thing when you're talking about a guy you're trading for. What's the point of wasting a high pick on him when you can pickup a decent TE in the mid-rounds that you can keep for a few years on a really cheap deal as opposed to just a one year rental? Just doesn't make sense. It's got to be right player, right price.

Even if Dickson goes down *knock on wood* I still would be against paying something that egregious and would prefer sticking with our guys. But I'd be down for this if like I said, it were a 6th I'd be all for it.
He's worth more to KC than an R6. BAL has legitimate Super Bowl aspirations, but the WR/TE corp is in disarray. Jacoby Jones is not a legitimate WR2. Pitta was going to be the go to guy.

Vinnie Schiancoe is not the answer. Not that Moeaki replaces Pitta, but he's a far better option than VS. Moeki caught 47 balls his rookie year and 33 last year in a "rehab" season. Schiancoe will be lucky to make your team, yet alone catch 20 balls.

The Ravens need help if they are to repeat. That's why you trade for someone, even Tony Moeaki. Legitimate Super Bowl runs don't come every year.

Besides, since when is an R4 a high pick? If Moeaki catches 40 balls as TE2, the Ravens will be in the Super Bowl hunt. A conditional R4 would fall at the end of the round. It's a pittance.


The Ravens are built for long-term success. Trading a 4th round pick just to replace a guy for a single year (despite having a 3rd round pick TE stepping in) is not a long-term move. That's a short-sighted move, something that Ozzie doesn't do. If we were interested in simply repeating this year, we wouldn't have let 9 starters walk. We are more concerned about being in position to win for the next 5 years, not just this year. There is 0 reason to trade a 4th round pick (which is valuable to us as we hit a good amount in the later rounds) for a TE for one year who has very similar stats to the guy who is already filling in for Pitta.

Moeaki Career Stats: 80 catches, 1009 yards, 4 TDs
Dickson Career Stats: 86 catches, 905 yards, 6 TDs

In Dickson's one year as the top TE (2011), he had a better year than Moeaki has ever had. Dickson certainly is no slouch, he's just not as well rounded as Pitta. In a Caldwell offense, though, an athletic TE is a big piece and Dickson has the flexibility to play in-line, as an H-back, or even split out wide.

Bottom line: There is no need for Moeaki really, especially for a mid-round pick. That's not how perennial contenders are built.

If Dickson replaces Pitta, who replaces Dickson? Sciancoe? Good luck with that.


Juicecheck will replace Dickson's role.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gooselovechild wrote:
Quick question: if Moeaki is going to be marginalized by a rookie and a journeyman TE, why would anyone trade for him at all?

It would be more prudent to wait the Chiefs out and just claim him when he gets cut, or buy low on him at the end of camp with a conditional 7th if he meets certain game or performance measurables.

But quite frankly, I don't see any reason to believe that Moeaki would be anything better than what we have in Furstenburg, and he doesnt have a bad knee. Its wishful thinking to believe that the Chiefs could finagle a conditional 4th for him at this point.
His contract is up at the end of the year and the Chiefs have other fish to fry.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mongo wrote:
gooselovechild wrote:
Quick question: if Moeaki is going to be marginalized by a rookie and a journeyman TE, why would anyone trade for him at all?

It would be more prudent to wait the Chiefs out and just claim him when he gets cut, or buy low on him at the end of camp with a conditional 7th if he meets certain game or performance measurables.

But quite frankly, I don't see any reason to believe that Moeaki would be anything better than what we have in Furstenburg, and he doesnt have a bad knee. Its wishful thinking to believe that the Chiefs could finagle a conditional 4th for him at this point.
His contract is up at the end of the year and the Chiefs have other fish to fry.


And the contract up at the end of the year is precisely why his value is lower than a 4th. You may have been able to get a 4th if he still had 2-3 years left. The fact that he only has one before he's due an extension is what lowers his value.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
Mongo wrote:
gooselovechild wrote:
Quick question: if Moeaki is going to be marginalized by a rookie and a journeyman TE, why would anyone trade for him at all?

It would be more prudent to wait the Chiefs out and just claim him when he gets cut, or buy low on him at the end of camp with a conditional 7th if he meets certain game or performance measurables.

But quite frankly, I don't see any reason to believe that Moeaki would be anything better than what we have in Furstenburg, and he doesnt have a bad knee. Its wishful thinking to believe that the Chiefs could finagle a conditional 4th for him at this point.
His contract is up at the end of the year and the Chiefs have other fish to fry.


And the contract up at the end of the year is precisely why his value is lower than a 4th. You may have been able to get a 4th if he still had 2-3 years left. The fact that he only has one before he's due an extension is what lowers his value.

Normally I'd agree with you, but I don't see it that way. This is a unique situation. Pretend you need a TE. The best FA option out there was Schiancoe. A trade is your best option for getting someone productive. A one year rental is not that bad an alternative.

Besides, his contract status gives the Ravens options at the end of the year. Suppose he out-performs Dickson. You'd likely have first crack at extending him. If he busts you let him walk no questions asked.

To me, its a no lose situation for BAL. Remember Moeaki must perform at an agreed upon level to warrant the R4.
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