Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

lawrence vickers released
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Cleveland Browns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 31368
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppl are complaining about the issues at FB, when FB is the least important position in the NFL
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ether wrote:
yeah but I'm pretty sure you're just trolling Entropy, Vickers executed on a couple plays? haha really? this thread should be locked.


Ok, so you're like dropkick and think people that disagree with you are trolling.

And you're opinion that Vickers was more than a FB that had little impact on the team while he was here is based on 'haha really' and 'this thread should be locked'?

I mean, you are able to read where I said that my opinion is that Vickers had little impact on the team while he was here, right? And then you characterize that opinion as 'a guy who executed on a couple plays' instead of showing how he had a greater impact.

It is so strange how people have such strong opinions about a FB and continue to have them even when the passage of time suggests those opinions were in error.

And really, its perfectly fine to disagree with my opinions. But why the comments about trolling and locking threads? That's not rhetorical, by the way. Anybody?

Don't want to talk about FBs? Then why respond? Again, not rhetorical.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Estonianzulu


Moderator
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 26344
Location: Middle of Nowhere VA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about we just leave calling out trolls to the mods. If you feel you're being trolled, tell us.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
Entropy wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
Entropy wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
At the time it was a mistake to cut/ not resign Vickers. Having said that I would not sign him at this point.


Why was it a mistake at the time horny?

And it seems like you're saying he should have played for 2 more years and then be cut in favor of who we have now. Is that what you mean to say?


Because at the time I thought he was still playing well. Which would of meant we could of done far better with that 4th round pick we used on a FB who is horrible. He is still a better FB than Owen likely ever will be but is now two years older.
I think we should give Smelley sometime there and see how he goes.


I get ya. I just don't think I can agree with Vickers playing 'well' in 2010 (or really any season). Vickers had a handful of plays that he executed 'well' enough that they stuck out, in my opinion. But overall, he had little impact (good or bad) on the team during his time here. He's a freakin' fullback, lol.

I think Hillis played 'well' in 2010.

I really would like to see MalcolmBrown hit on his prediction about Smelley though.

But who knows, maybe Marecic comes to camp as a completely different player. I did hear reports that he was spending a lot of time working on his receiving after practice.

He might surprise everyone and blow Le'Ron McClain's 42 yards rushing and 29 yards receiving out of the water next year.

Very Happy


Unless Marecic takes a pill to give him the athletic ability to play FB in the NFL I honestly think expecting anything out of him to be wishful thinking. I loved him in college, and was okay with the selection, but from the 1st time I saw him in pads I couldn't shake the feeling that he just doesn't belong. If he caught the ball well he may be a servicable player, but even that would be a stretch. I hope he proves me wrong though, or someone else takes hold of the position.


See, I think people are overstating his bad play. I think the fact that he's still on the team supports my opinion too. Actually, it may be why I have my opinion.

I mean, I wanted the guy to disappear off the team every time a pass bounced off of his hands. I think that happened four times, by the way.

But then I wondered why he didn't seem to drop passes in 2011. I thought about why I didn't want Little cut after his 2011 season.

Then I remembered that Marecic is a traditional isolation lead-blocker for a power running game. And he seems to actually be decent at that. And that is the type of running game that Turner prefers.

So it may just be that he needs to work more on his receiving (which he has been doing) and he can have a good chance to make this team.

Meanwhile, Vickers is a guy working on his 4th team in 4 seasons.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5838
Location: WV
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
Entropy wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
Entropy wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
At the time it was a mistake to cut/ not resign Vickers. Having said that I would not sign him at this point.


Why was it a mistake at the time horny?

And it seems like you're saying he should have played for 2 more years and then be cut in favor of who we have now. Is that what you mean to say?


Because at the time I thought he was still playing well. Which would of meant we could of done far better with that 4th round pick we used on a FB who is horrible. He is still a better FB than Owen likely ever will be but is now two years older.
I think we should give Smelley sometime there and see how he goes.


I get ya. I just don't think I can agree with Vickers playing 'well' in 2010 (or really any season). Vickers had a handful of plays that he executed 'well' enough that they stuck out, in my opinion. But overall, he had little impact (good or bad) on the team during his time here. He's a freakin' fullback, lol.

I think Hillis played 'well' in 2010.

I really would like to see MalcolmBrown hit on his prediction about Smelley though.

But who knows, maybe Marecic comes to camp as a completely different player. I did hear reports that he was spending a lot of time working on his receiving after practice.

He might surprise everyone and blow Le'Ron McClain's 42 yards rushing and 29 yards receiving out of the water next year.

Very Happy


Unless Marecic takes a pill to give him the athletic ability to play FB in the NFL I honestly think expecting anything out of him to be wishful thinking. I loved him in college, and was okay with the selection, but from the 1st time I saw him in pads I couldn't shake the feeling that he just doesn't belong. If he caught the ball well he may be a servicable player, but even that would be a stretch. I hope he proves me wrong though, or someone else takes hold of the position.


See, I think people are overstating his bad play. I think the fact that he's still on the team supports my opinion too. Actually, it may be why I have my opinion.

I mean, I wanted the guy to disappear off the team every time a pass bounced off of his hands. I think that happened four times, by the way.

But then I wondered why he didn't seem to drop passes in 2011. I thought about why I didn't want Little cut after his 2011 season.

Then I remembered that Marecic is a traditional isolation lead-blocker for a power running game. And he seems to actually be decent at that. And that is the type of running game that Turner prefers.

So it may just be that he needs to work more on his receiving (which he has been doing) and he can have a good chance to make this team.

Meanwhile, Vickers is a guy working on his 4th team in 4 seasons.


I'm not going to argue who is better now between Marecic and Vickers because it doesn't matter much. If we sign Vickers, we will get to see them compete head to head, but honestly I don't think either would be a great fit here.

I hope Marecic proves me wrong and he can play at this level, he is only 24 years old and has a lot of years left in him.

I am not overly concerned if Marecic is good at receiving or not, that would just be icing on the cake. What I didn't like about watching him was that he didn't seem to have the mobility to get on defenders straight up. He seemed to be avoided too easily by them on their way to make the tackle, and that was my observation over both years. I don't remember him being a good pass catcher in 2011, but my memory isn't that good so I'll trust you.

The previous regime drafted Maecic in the 4th round and they deactivated him for almost half of the season last year. That is not a good sign, but at least they didn't cut him, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Alex Smith was playing FB because they thought he was better than Marecic, which is sad, but possibly true.

If Marecic doesn't make the Browns team this year, he will wish he could be on 4 teams in 4 years like Vickers has, because I think he will be completely out of the league in 2.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:
Entropy wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
Entropy wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
Entropy wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
At the time it was a mistake to cut/ not resign Vickers. Having said that I would not sign him at this point.


Why was it a mistake at the time horny?

And it seems like you're saying he should have played for 2 more years and then be cut in favor of who we have now. Is that what you mean to say?


Because at the time I thought he was still playing well. Which would of meant we could of done far better with that 4th round pick we used on a FB who is horrible. He is still a better FB than Owen likely ever will be but is now two years older.
I think we should give Smelley sometime there and see how he goes.


I get ya. I just don't think I can agree with Vickers playing 'well' in 2010 (or really any season). Vickers had a handful of plays that he executed 'well' enough that they stuck out, in my opinion. But overall, he had little impact (good or bad) on the team during his time here. He's a freakin' fullback, lol.

I think Hillis played 'well' in 2010.

I really would like to see MalcolmBrown hit on his prediction about Smelley though.

But who knows, maybe Marecic comes to camp as a completely different player. I did hear reports that he was spending a lot of time working on his receiving after practice.

He might surprise everyone and blow Le'Ron McClain's 42 yards rushing and 29 yards receiving out of the water next year.

Very Happy


Unless Marecic takes a pill to give him the athletic ability to play FB in the NFL I honestly think expecting anything out of him to be wishful thinking. I loved him in college, and was okay with the selection, but from the 1st time I saw him in pads I couldn't shake the feeling that he just doesn't belong. If he caught the ball well he may be a servicable player, but even that would be a stretch. I hope he proves me wrong though, or someone else takes hold of the position.


See, I think people are overstating his bad play. I think the fact that he's still on the team supports my opinion too. Actually, it may be why I have my opinion.

I mean, I wanted the guy to disappear off the team every time a pass bounced off of his hands. I think that happened four times, by the way.

But then I wondered why he didn't seem to drop passes in 2011. I thought about why I didn't want Little cut after his 2011 season.

Then I remembered that Marecic is a traditional isolation lead-blocker for a power running game. And he seems to actually be decent at that. And that is the type of running game that Turner prefers.

So it may just be that he needs to work more on his receiving (which he has been doing) and he can have a good chance to make this team.

Meanwhile, Vickers is a guy working on his 4th team in 4 seasons.


I'm not going to argue who is better now between Marecic and Vickers because it doesn't matter much. If we sign Vickers, we will get to see them compete head to head, but honestly I don't think either would be a great fit here.

I hope Marecic proves me wrong and he can play at this level, he is only 24 years old and has a lot of years left in him.

I am not overly concerned if Marecic is good at receiving or not, that would just be icing on the cake. What I didn't like about watching him was that he didn't seem to have the mobility to get on defenders straight up. He seemed to be avoided too easily by them on their way to make the tackle, and that was my observation over both years. I don't remember him being a good pass catcher in 2011, but my memory isn't that good so I'll trust you.

The previous regime drafted Maecic in the 4th round and they deactivated him for almost half of the season last year. That is not a good sign, but at least they didn't cut him, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Alex Smith was playing FB because they thought he was better than Marecic, which is sad, but possibly true.

If Marecic doesn't make the Browns team this year, he will wish he could be on 4 teams in 4 years like Vickers has, because I think he will be completely out of the league in 2.


Marecic played in 10 games last year and started 2. Smith played in 11 games and started 2. The current regime cut Smith and kept Marecic because they thought he was better, which is true and maybe sad.

Marecic did this in 2011...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEY8lveBzyY

This was not all-pro worthy, but it's also hardly worthy of all the 'maybe he takes a pill and can magically play FB' and 'Marecic sucks' kind of talk.

Last year he dropped four passes, which happened to be all of the targets he had all season. I can't find any video to post except for this, but I've watched every game more than once (as you may have as well) and I don't recall much more than those 4 dropped passes and maybe a missed blocking assignment (which every blocking player was guilty of at least a few times last year) to really criticize him about. And that means for both of his pro seasons.

Marecic, in my opinion, is a fan's choice of a scapegoat for a bad season (or two) that was really a result of extreme inexperience and/or a team lacking talent.

In addition, I believe that Marecic was benched in favor of Smith solely because of pass-catching ability--which is a staple of the WCO. Not that it doesn't help all FBs to be able to catch passes, but Marecic was having a terrible time with that last year--which was surprising considering what he had done previously.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas5737


Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 5838
Location: WV
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
Entropy wrote:
Thomas5737 wrote:
Entropy wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
Entropy wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
At the time it was a mistake to cut/ not resign Vickers. Having said that I would not sign him at this point.


Why was it a mistake at the time horny?

And it seems like you're saying he should have played for 2 more years and then be cut in favor of who we have now. Is that what you mean to say?


Because at the time I thought he was still playing well. Which would of meant we could of done far better with that 4th round pick we used on a FB who is horrible. He is still a better FB than Owen likely ever will be but is now two years older.
I think we should give Smelley sometime there and see how he goes.


I get ya. I just don't think I can agree with Vickers playing 'well' in 2010 (or really any season). Vickers had a handful of plays that he executed 'well' enough that they stuck out, in my opinion. But overall, he had little impact (good or bad) on the team during his time here. He's a freakin' fullback, lol.

I think Hillis played 'well' in 2010.

I really would like to see MalcolmBrown hit on his prediction about Smelley though.

But who knows, maybe Marecic comes to camp as a completely different player. I did hear reports that he was spending a lot of time working on his receiving after practice.

He might surprise everyone and blow Le'Ron McClain's 42 yards rushing and 29 yards receiving out of the water next year.

Very Happy


Unless Marecic takes a pill to give him the athletic ability to play FB in the NFL I honestly think expecting anything out of him to be wishful thinking. I loved him in college, and was okay with the selection, but from the 1st time I saw him in pads I couldn't shake the feeling that he just doesn't belong. If he caught the ball well he may be a servicable player, but even that would be a stretch. I hope he proves me wrong though, or someone else takes hold of the position.


See, I think people are overstating his bad play. I think the fact that he's still on the team supports my opinion too. Actually, it may be why I have my opinion.

I mean, I wanted the guy to disappear off the team every time a pass bounced off of his hands. I think that happened four times, by the way.

But then I wondered why he didn't seem to drop passes in 2011. I thought about why I didn't want Little cut after his 2011 season.

Then I remembered that Marecic is a traditional isolation lead-blocker for a power running game. And he seems to actually be decent at that. And that is the type of running game that Turner prefers.

So it may just be that he needs to work more on his receiving (which he has been doing) and he can have a good chance to make this team.

Meanwhile, Vickers is a guy working on his 4th team in 4 seasons.


I'm not going to argue who is better now between Marecic and Vickers because it doesn't matter much. If we sign Vickers, we will get to see them compete head to head, but honestly I don't think either would be a great fit here.

I hope Marecic proves me wrong and he can play at this level, he is only 24 years old and has a lot of years left in him.

I am not overly concerned if Marecic is good at receiving or not, that would just be icing on the cake. What I didn't like about watching him was that he didn't seem to have the mobility to get on defenders straight up. He seemed to be avoided too easily by them on their way to make the tackle, and that was my observation over both years. I don't remember him being a good pass catcher in 2011, but my memory isn't that good so I'll trust you.

The previous regime drafted Maecic in the 4th round and they deactivated him for almost half of the season last year. That is not a good sign, but at least they didn't cut him, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Alex Smith was playing FB because they thought he was better than Marecic, which is sad, but possibly true.

If Marecic doesn't make the Browns team this year, he will wish he could be on 4 teams in 4 years like Vickers has, because I think he will be completely out of the league in 2.


Marecic played in 10 games last year and started 2. Smith played in 11 games and started 2. The current regime cut Smith and kept Marecic because they thought he was better, which is true and maybe sad.

Marecic did this in 2011...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEY8lveBzyY

This was not all-pro worthy, but it's also hardly worthy of all the 'maybe he takes a pill and can magically play FB' and 'Marecic sucks' kind of talk.

Last year he dropped four passes, which happened to be all of the targets he had all season. I can't find any video to post except for this, but I've watched every game more than once (as you may have as well) and I don't recall much more than those 4 dropped passes and maybe a missed blocking assignment (which every blocking player was guilty of at least a few times last year) to really criticize him about. And that means for both of his pro seasons.

Marecic, in my opinion, is a fan's choice of a scapegoat for a bad season (or two) that was really a result of extreme inexperience and/or a team lacking talent.

In addition, I believe that Marecic was benched in favor of Smith solely because of pass-catching ability--which is a staple of the WCO. Not that it doesn't help all FBs to be able to catch passes, but Marecic was having a terrible time with that last year--which was surprising considering what he had done previously.


I don't think Marecic is being used as a scapegoat, I personally don't think he has factored in on any wins or losses since he has been here. I am just trying to evaluate the player, and catching the football doesn't mean much to me at his position. I am more interested in his ability to make the right decisions on the fly and put himself in a position to make the block and successfully execute that block on a good percentage.

I haven't seen that yet. He doesn't look the part to me when he is on the field, and I think it has something to do with his lack of agility. He seems to have the motivation and desire to play the part, just maybe not the physical tools.

Maybe if he improves his technique and gets comfortable working with T-Rich he can overcome those obstacles, I hope he does, even though I lack the faith that he will.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas5737 wrote:


I don't think Marecic is being used as a scapegoat, I personally don't think he has factored in on any wins or losses since he has been here. I am just trying to evaluate the player, and catching the football doesn't mean much to me at his position. I am more interested in his ability to make the right decisions on the fly and put himself in a position to make the block and successfully execute that block on a good percentage.

I haven't seen that yet. He doesn't look the part to me when he is on the field, and I think it has something to do with his lack of agility. He seems to have the motivation and desire to play the part, just maybe not the physical tools.

Maybe if he improves his technique and gets comfortable working with T-Rich he can overcome those obstacles, I hope he does, even though I lack the faith that he will.


I don't think you are using him as a scapegoat. But surely you have seen many other fans doing that--as have I.

Well, I can't say that I've seen him have that much of an impact on either season he's played either.

But I will say that if you watch the clips I posted, you will see what you just asked to see. What I don't know is if he did it for a good percentage of the other plays he played. But I honestly don't recall him blocking poorly. Also, based on those receptions in his rookie season and his ability to both seal and chip--I don't see why you question his agility.

Now, I think we will both be happy if just someone can fill the FB role to your criteria, no matter who that is.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hornbybrown


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 15895
Location: 1600 Pennyslvania Ave
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
ppl are complaining about the issues at FB, when FB is the least important position in the NFL


FB cost us at least one game last year.

That's worth complaining about.
_________________


Adopt a Brown 2014
Miles Austin 16 Recs 169 Yds 2 TD's
Pierre Desir
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Estonianzulu


Moderator
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 26344
Location: Middle of Nowhere VA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ppl are complaining about the issues at FB, when FB is the least important position in the NFL


FB cost us at least one game last year.

That's worth complaining about.


If you are in a position where a fullback can cost you the game, you have bigger problems then the fullback.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hornbybrown


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 15895
Location: 1600 Pennyslvania Ave
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estonianzulu wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ppl are complaining about the issues at FB, when FB is the least important position in the NFL


FB cost us at least one game last year.

That's worth complaining about.


If you are in a position where a fullback can cost you the game, you have bigger problems then the fullback.


When he drops a sure fire first down that's on him and him alone. I would rather have a FB that can catch than one that cant. IIRC he was passed to four times for four drops. Most of them were easy catches to.
_________________


Adopt a Brown 2014
Miles Austin 16 Recs 169 Yds 2 TD's
Pierre Desir
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Estonianzulu


Moderator
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 26344
Location: Middle of Nowhere VA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ppl are complaining about the issues at FB, when FB is the least important position in the NFL


FB cost us at least one game last year.

That's worth complaining about.


If you are in a position where a fullback can cost you the game, you have bigger problems then the fullback.


When he drops a sure fire first down that's on him and him alone. I would rather have a FB that can catch than one that cant. IIRC he was passed to four times for four drops. Most of them were easy catches to.


I'm not defending Marecic, he failed. Just saying that we were in trouble to need that one play
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
buno67


Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 31368
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hornbybrown wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ppl are complaining about the issues at FB, when FB is the least important position in the NFL


FB cost us at least one game last year.

That's worth complaining about.


If you are in a position where a fullback can cost you the game, you have bigger problems then the fullback.


When he drops a sure fire first down that's on him and him alone. I would rather have a FB that can catch than one that cant. IIRC he was passed to four times for four drops. Most of them were easy catches to.


when the fate of a football game comes down to our 1st or 2nd year FB, its not his fault and not fully on him. It means his teams and coaches made plenty of mistakes to put the team in that situation. If weeden was playing perfect, if Shurmur was calling a great game, we wouldnt need him to make a big play
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
MalcolmBrown


Joined: 26 Jul 2011
Posts: 656
Location: 2014 Adopt a Brownie: Jim Dray: 7 Receptions, 91 Yards (13.0 ypc), 1 TD
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
hornbybrown wrote:
buno67 wrote:
ppl are complaining about the issues at FB, when FB is the least important position in the NFL


FB cost us at least one game last year.

That's worth complaining about.


If you are in a position where a fullback can cost you the game, you have bigger problems then the fullback.


When he drops a sure fire first down that's on him and him alone. I would rather have a FB that can catch than one that cant. IIRC he was passed to four times for four drops. Most of them were easy catches to.




when the fate of a football game comes down to our 1st or 2nd year FB, its not his fault and not fully on him. It means his teams and coaches made plenty of mistakes to put the team in that situation. If weeden was playing perfect, if Shurmur was calling a great game, we wouldnt need him to make a big play


I hear what you're saying, but the play called was executed properly until the dropped pass. I'm not saying O.Marecic should take all the blame, but the coaching staff was able to get the team in that position to be able to go to the open fullback, and player execution was the downfall. So call it mistakes to get them there, or call it right where we wanted them. Marecic, dropped an easy one.
_________________
"You mean...this ain't Malcolm Browns car...? ...Damn...my bad..."

Reppin in Athens, Ohio AKA South Cleveland
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dawgpoun8017


Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 12301
Location: Waterloo,NY
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lawrence Vickers wasn't necessarily known for his hands...... just sayin
_________________
2013 Joe Blackburn HOF Award Recipient
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Cleveland Browns All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group