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4-3 defense coming soon?
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iwentundrafted


Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 3285
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:05 am    Post subject: 4-3 defense coming soon? Reply with quote

I know Oldman likes the sound of this.

I asked during a Q&A about Dorsey being effective at the nose and ESPN scout Matt Williamson responded with this.

Quote:
Matt Williamson ‏@WilliamsonNFL 50m
.@NFLosophy @BIGGEST49erfan & SF will incorporate more 4-3 and let Dorsey penetrate...new wrinkle coming


followed by these

Quote:
Matt Williamson ‏@WilliamsonNFL 48m
Was just saying, as evidenced by their offseason personnel moves, I expect much more 4-3 this yr from the #49ers


Quote:
Matt Williamson ‏@WilliamsonNFL 43m
Brooks to SLB, Willis at MLB, Bowman at WLB, J Smith at SDE, A Smith at WDE, McDonald at 3T, Dorsey at 1T #49ers


Quote:
Matt Williamson ‏@WilliamsonNFL 43m
N Bowman would be a mad man as a 4-3 WLB


Quote:
Matt Williamson ‏@WilliamsonNFL 38m
And Yes @BRForrester49, 4-3 is WAY better fit for Tank Carradine...teams tell us their intentions with offseason personnel moves


If true I honestly don't like a base 4-3 over a base 3-4. Why fix something that isnt broken? I know a lot of you might not care since we pretty much run a nickle based defense anyways but its slow around here and im bored.
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Kikuchiyo


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, he's just connecting dots that aren't really there. Dorsey has played in a 34 his entire NFL career, but that doesn't mean he hasn't played with four down linemen. As everyone here already knows, once you go into the nickel formation the difference between the 34 and the 43 is mitigated. I also disagree about his evaluation of Tank. Not many people thought Justin Smith fit in the 34 when we signed him, and now he's one of the best 34 ends in the game (I'd call him the outright best if JJ Watt didn't go crazy last year).
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rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't really matter how we appear to line up. It's what the players do when the ball is snapped. We could line up in a 3-4 that effectively plays like a 4-3, or line up in a 4-3 that effectively plays like a 3-4, or a 3-4 that plays like a 3-4, or a 4-3 that plays like a 4-3. Whatever front we show the other team, we have the ability to play any which way, in my opinion. A pure 4-3 teams wouldn't be able to show credible 3-4 fronts, but we can. What's important is that we can throw anything at the other team, and that gives us an advantage.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll add this: we've been playing a 3-4 because that's what our personnel dictated. As we progressively add better and better players, we don't have to pigeonhole ourselves as a 3-4 team. That's not Harbaugh's way, and not even Fangio's way, who was more of a 4-3 guy in the years prior to his hire at Stanford. They went with the 3-4 because of the personnel. With time, they're allowed to add new wrinkles, new formations, new plays. That's what happened and will continue to happen with the offense. Why shouldn't we do it with the defense as well?

It made sense to pigeonhole yourself as a 3-4 team back when only 2-3 teams were playing the 3-4, because it gave you an advantage, personnel-wise. Not anymore. Nowadays, you have to be multiple.
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oldman9er


Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: 4-3 defense coming soon? Reply with quote

iwentundrafted wrote:
I know Oldman likes the sound of this.


Not getting my hopes up, but YES!



Not much left to say until it actually happens.. which.. it won't so I won't waste my energies. Sad
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Gore Whore 21


Joined: 15 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rudy has the right idea, the more diverse we are the harder it will be for our opposition to try and attack our weaknesses.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soap only played about a third of the snaps last year. So it's not like we were playing our base 3-4 a lot anyway. That said I always thought one of McDonald's strengths was his quickness off the snap and ability to penetrate. Haven't seen much of Dorsey but I think his game is a lot like that too. So having two guys in the middle that can penetrate and disrupt running plays, and maybe bring some pressure up the middle on passing downs would be nice.

The more the NFL becomes a pass-happy league the more important it is for a defense to shut down the passing game and NTs just don't help very much with that.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just an added thought, Tank might well be better suited to 4-3 DE than 3-4 DE. Who knows? Lemonier might be capable of turning into one of those smallish, but super quick, 4-3 DEs that terrorize QBs. Cameron Wake, Chris Clemons, Elvis Dumervil, Jared Allen, Robert Quinn, Chris Long - all listed as DEs and all roughly Lemonier's size.

Lots of options now that we've added Dorsey, Carradine and Lemonier.
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Psychlone


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No mention as to what role Brooks would play in this scenerio Question
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oldman9er


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psychlone wrote:
No mention as to what role Brooks would play in this scenerio Question


One of the above quotes suggested Brooks @ SLB. That much, I agree with, but preferably in a 4-3 Under role.

I do agree with others that it doesn't make a big difference, since we run so much 1-gap 3-4 and Nickel D. I just like the 4-3 Under and especially with our personnel.
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Kikuchiyo


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Just an added thought, Tank might well be better suited to 4-3 DE than 3-4 DE. Who knows? Lemonier might be capable of turning into one of those smallish, but super quick, 4-3 DEs that terrorize QBs. Cameron Wake, Chris Clemons, Elvis Dumervil, Jared Allen, Robert Quinn, Chris Long - all listed as DEs and all roughly Lemonier's size.

Lots of options now that we've added Dorsey, Carradine and Lemonier.


I really don't think it matter what scheme we run. If Carradine and Lemonier can play they can play. Talent is talent. I remember when we signed Justin Smith and nobody thought he was a good fit in the 34. Now he's one of the best at his position and arguably the most important player on defense.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kikuchiyo wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Just an added thought, Tank might well be better suited to 4-3 DE than 3-4 DE. Who knows? Lemonier might be capable of turning into one of those smallish, but super quick, 4-3 DEs that terrorize QBs. Cameron Wake, Chris Clemons, Elvis Dumervil, Jared Allen, Robert Quinn, Chris Long - all listed as DEs and all roughly Lemonier's size.

Lots of options now that we've added Dorsey, Carradine and Lemonier.


I really don't think it matter what scheme we run. If Carradine and Lemonier can play they can play. Talent is talent. I remember when we signed Justin Smith and nobody thought he was a good fit in the 34. Now he's one of the best at his position and arguably the most important player on defense.


Understood. But there's been talk about having Tank bulk up another 15 - 20 pounds to play 3-4 DE. Problem is he's already not very fast and that additional weight will slow him down even more. At 4-3 DE he can play at 270 instead of 290 and hopefully be more athlectic at that weight - and more productive. Just my thoughts on how he would fit in.
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Kikuchiyo


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Kikuchiyo wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Just an added thought, Tank might well be better suited to 4-3 DE than 3-4 DE. Who knows? Lemonier might be capable of turning into one of those smallish, but super quick, 4-3 DEs that terrorize QBs. Cameron Wake, Chris Clemons, Elvis Dumervil, Jared Allen, Robert Quinn, Chris Long - all listed as DEs and all roughly Lemonier's size.

Lots of options now that we've added Dorsey, Carradine and Lemonier.


I really don't think it matter what scheme we run. If Carradine and Lemonier can play they can play. Talent is talent. I remember when we signed Justin Smith and nobody thought he was a good fit in the 34. Now he's one of the best at his position and arguably the most important player on defense.


Understood. But there's been talk about having Tank bulk up another 15 - 20 pounds to play 3-4 DE. Problem is he's already not very fast and that additional weight will slow him down even more. At 4-3 DE he can play at 270 instead of 290 and hopefully be more athlectic at that weight - and more productive. Just my thoughts on how he would fit in.


Where'd you get this idea? Tank ran a 4.75 40 a few months after a torn ACL at 270 lbs. Carradine's a great athlete.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kikuchiyo wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Kikuchiyo wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Just an added thought, Tank might well be better suited to 4-3 DE than 3-4 DE. Who knows? Lemonier might be capable of turning into one of those smallish, but super quick, 4-3 DEs that terrorize QBs. Cameron Wake, Chris Clemons, Elvis Dumervil, Jared Allen, Robert Quinn, Chris Long - all listed as DEs and all roughly Lemonier's size.

Lots of options now that we've added Dorsey, Carradine and Lemonier.


I really don't think it matter what scheme we run. If Carradine and Lemonier can play they can play. Talent is talent. I remember when we signed Justin Smith and nobody thought he was a good fit in the 34. Now he's one of the best at his position and arguably the most important player on defense.


Understood. But there's been talk about having Tank bulk up another 15 - 20 pounds to play 3-4 DE. Problem is he's already not very fast and that additional weight will slow him down even more. At 4-3 DE he can play at 270 instead of 290 and hopefully be more athlectic at that weight - and more productive. Just my thoughts on how he would fit in.


Where'd you get this idea? Tank ran a 4.75 40 a few months after a torn ACL at 270 lbs. Carradine's a great athlete.


If so that's good news. The CBS sports web site had him listed at 4.9 and I saw a write up of his pro day saying he was timed between 4.75 and 4.85. But pretty much everyone's pro day is faster than the combine times so adjusting up a bit the 4.9 seems about right. Who cares at this point. Like you said, if he can play, he can play.
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Kikuchiyo


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
If so that's good news. The CBS sports web site had him listed at 4.9 and I saw a write up of his pro day saying he was timed between 4.75 and 4.85. But pretty much everyone's pro day is faster than the combine times so adjusting up a bit the 4.9 seems about right. Who cares at this point. Like you said, if he can play, he can play.


You also have to take into account the torn ACL. Usually people don't come back at full strength from a torn ACL for at least a full year. Carradine ran those times 3 or 4 months after his injury. 40 times can only tell you so much though. If you really want a good judgement of his speed put on the tape. Tank plays way faster than his teammate Werner who was a first round pick and will be moved to OLB with the Colts.
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