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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Location: Montana
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Nice post DHLF. Very reasonable.

I, personally, don't think setting one record makes one season better than another by default. Some of you are arguing that, if AD gained .565 more yards per game, his season would then be better than CJ's. I don't think, considering his average and TDs, he needs that.

That was never the argument. You try to make it into that so you have a point. But you don't.

You lose.

Go home.


Just give up. They are using dumb logic after another really. Comparing K to WR and now using drops for RB versus WR. They are reaching with unworthy comparison after another.

Not worth the time anymore when debates stoop to grasping at straws and making weak comparisons
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Nice post DHLF. Very reasonable.

I, personally, don't think setting one record makes one season better than another by default. Some of you are arguing that, if AD gained .565 more yards per game, his season would then be better than CJ's. I don't think, considering his average and TDs, he needs that.

That was never the argument. You try to make it into that so you have a point. But you don't.

You lose.

Go home.


Just give up. They are using dumb logic after another really. Comparing K to WR and now using drops for RB versus WR. They are reaching with unworthy comparison after another.

Not worth the time anymore when debates stoop to grasping at straws and making weak comparisons

Wait. Didn't you argue that CJ's 2012 season is better than Peyton Manning's 2004 season? Yep, you did.
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BlackandBlue


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
Its interesting whenever there are debates about who the greatest is, winning is a large part of the equation except that seems to have zero weight in this discussion.

For reference, and we have had this discussion in person before, to this day I fully believe Marino was the best QB to ever play the game. I am fortunate to have seen most the QBs that are in that discussion and to me he was clearly just the best of them all. Now I do believe winning can have a place in a discussion when it is close or the eye test tells you otherwise they are very even. But in no way should it be the only deciding factor when comparing personal accomplishments within a team sport.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that TLs skewed comparison is a good example at all. We are not talking about a player that barely missed a record and one that barely beat one. We are talking about a player that completely shattered a record and overshadowed anyone in his position to ever play the game leaving very little doubt. Just an absolutely dominating performance in which TLs example downplays completely.


How bad would Calvin's statistics in other categories had to have been for you to place AP over him, hypothetically?

Like, say:

1,964 yards

0 TDs

12 yards per catch (with the corresponding increase in receptions to achieve the same yardage total)

Would you still say he had a better year than AP?

Because I feel like you're arguing that the yardage totals matter to the exclusion of any other objective measure of play. I might be incorrect in this assumption, so I'm just making sure.

Peterson was the most prolific runner in football, he was the most efficient runner in football, and he scored the third most touchdowns of any RBs in football (the other two RBs ahead of him, Arian Foster and Alfred Morris, were on two of the best offenses in the league last year. Their teams got near the end zone a LOT more than the Vikings did). He was the best or close to the best at everything you could ask from someone carrying the ball.

Mind you, I spent five pages arguing in the MVP thread in NFL News that AP was NOT the MVP (I still don't think he was). But his year was better than Calvin's.
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
Its interesting whenever there are debates about who the greatest is, winning is a large part of the equation except that seems to have zero weight in this discussion.

For reference, and we have had this discussion in person before, to this day I fully believe Marino was the best QB to ever play the game. I am fortunate to have seen most the QBs that are in that discussion and to me he was clearly just the best of them all. Now I do believe winning can have a place in a discussion when it is close or the eye test tells you otherwise they are very even. But in no way should it be the only deciding factor when comparing personal accomplishments within a team sport.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that TLs skewed comparison is a good example at all. We are not talking about a player that barely missed a record and one that barely beat one. We are talking about a player that completely shattered a record and overshadowed anyone in his position to ever play the game leaving very little doubt. Just an absolutely dominating performance in which TLs example downplays completely.


How bad would Calvin's statistics in other categories had to have been for you to place AP over him, hypothetically?

Like, say:

1,964 yards

0 TDs

12 yards per catch (with the corresponding increase in receptions to achieve the same yardage total)

Would you still say he had a better year than AP?

Because I feel like you're arguing that the yardage totals matter to the exclusion of any other objective measure of play. I might be incorrect in this assumption, so I'm just making sure.

Peterson was the most prolific runner in football, he was the most efficient runner in football, and he scored the third most touchdowns of any RBs in football (the other two RBs ahead of him, Arian Foster and Alfred Morris, were on two of the best offenses in the league last year. Their teams got near the end zone a LOT more than the Vikings did). He was the best or close to the best at everything you could ask from someone carrying the ball.

Mind you, I spent five pages arguing in the MVP thread in NFL News that AP was NOT the MVP (I still don't think he was). But his year was better than Calvin's.

I tired long ago of this debate. It seemed like every time I said something it was turned into something else. Makes it real hard to argue a point that was never mine in the first place. Which, I suppose could just be in my mind, much like you said it could be in yours.

That said this seems like a completely reasonable post and I feel obligated to try to give the best answer I can. Same reason I answered a couple of DHLF's posts.

Your example is a very hard one to answer for me. Because you are still saying he didn't just beat the record, he smashed it. And regardless of the 0TDs, it is hard to rack up near 2k without your team having some benefit of scoring from it. Heck, there may even be unknown factors with such an odd stat line. Did the coaches ask him to try to let younger players get involved in the scoring to get them fired up for the overall good of the team? I mean, there is just a million things that could go into such an odd line, not even going to continue to speculate, you get the idea I hope.

And now to the avg/catch. Which again makes it really hard. While the 12/per is less than impressive and would significantly downgrade the performance...164 receptions would be 21 more than anyone else ever had. Which overall probably makes it more impressive.

Just for reference, CJs receptions last year ties for 3rd all time. So that should be taken into consideration as well.

I believe overall I would probably still lean CJs way due to the receptions. But I would see it as alot closer without a doubt and see an argument for AP much more reasonable.

I know it isn't much of an answer, but hopefully it is enough to answer your question.
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:

And Trout ranked above Cabrera in a lot of stats and advance stats yet was trumped due to Triple Crown. The RECORD does the same.


So I ask again: So if AP had gained ten more yards, his year would have been superior to CJ's?


No. Had he beaten the record by what CJ broke record then yes


CJ's season was the best season ever for a WR, AP's was, maybe, the 2nd best season ever

So having the (maybe) 2nd best season ever for your position is better then someone who had the best season ever for their position?

What? CJ's season was NOT the best season ever for a WR. He gained the most yards. That's it. He scored only 5 TDs and fumbled 3 times. No... don't confuse setting a record with having the best season for a WR in NFL history.

What criteria are you using to determine how "good" a season is?


a mixture of relevant stats (yards, TDs, YPC, etc.) as well as the eye test.

You're going to tell me that CJ's 2012 was better than Moss's season in 2007? He set a record as well.

You're taking our argument and trying to apply it much more broadly to try and disprove it. You can't really use the argument we are using to apply to seasons from different years because there are too many confounds in place (such as rules, era, ect.). You're trying to hard, man.

What CJ did is unprecedented, what AP did has a precedent. That fact you cannot argue (other then trying to say it doesn't matter), and that is the crux of our argument. A pretty strong one, I might add Wink


That's exactly what you're doing with AP's season though.

I'll ask you too: if AP had gained ten more yards, you would place his season above CJ's?

That's not at all what I'm doing. I'm not taking your guys argument and try to disprove it by comparing it to past years.

No, considering CJ crushed the record; but that conversation is a hypothetical, irrelevant angle at the argument. I see where you're going with it though, you're using the "CJ set the record" stance and flipping it around on us because AP was only 9 yards away, so if he "broke the record" they would have both broken records thus AP's season would be better. That highlights how dumb it is to argue over 9 yards.

That would certainly ruin the "he broke a record" argument, but then the argument would be "CJ crushed the record with a game to go"
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(Eli) Manning has a new look offense and he has looked really good in it.


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BlackandBlue


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:

And Trout ranked above Cabrera in a lot of stats and advance stats yet was trumped due to Triple Crown. The RECORD does the same.


So I ask again: So if AP had gained ten more yards, his year would have been superior to CJ's?


No. Had he beaten the record by what CJ broke record then yes


CJ's season was the best season ever for a WR, AP's was, maybe, the 2nd best season ever

So having the (maybe) 2nd best season ever for your position is better then someone who had the best season ever for their position?

What? CJ's season was NOT the best season ever for a WR. He gained the most yards. That's it. He scored only 5 TDs and fumbled 3 times. No... don't confuse setting a record with having the best season for a WR in NFL history.

What criteria are you using to determine how "good" a season is?


a mixture of relevant stats (yards, TDs, YPC, etc.) as well as the eye test.

You're going to tell me that CJ's 2012 was better than Moss's season in 2007? He set a record as well.

You're taking our argument and trying to apply it much more broadly to try and disprove it. You can't really use the argument we are using to apply to seasons from different years because there are too many confounds in place (such as rules, era, ect.). You're trying to hard, man.

What CJ did is unprecedented, what AP did has a precedent. That fact you cannot argue (other then trying to say it doesn't matter), and that is the crux of our argument. A pretty strong one, I might add Wink


That's exactly what you're doing with AP's season though.

I'll ask you too: if AP had gained ten more yards, you would place his season above CJ's?

That's not at all what I'm doing. I'm not taking your guys argument and try to disprove it by comparing it to past years.

No, considering CJ crushed the record; but that conversation is a hypothetical, irrelevant angle at the argument. I see where you're going with it though, you're using the "CJ set the record" stance and flipping it around on us because AP was only 9 yards away, so if he "broke the record" they would have both broken records thus AP's season would be better. That highlights how dumb it is to argue over 9 yards.

That would certainly ruin the "he broke a record" argument, but then the argument would be "CJ crushed the record with a game to go"


What could AP have done sort of "crushing the record" to have put him over Calvin? Nothing?
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Rockcity


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me I think Calvin had a better year then peterson. Peterson had a great year but I just feel how thing played out for both teams was a big factor. Calvin did was once in a lifetime on a depleted team... I personally wasn't that impressed with ap year.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcity wrote:
For me I think Calvin had a better year then peterson. Peterson had a great year but I just feel how thing played out for both teams was a big factor. Calvin did was once in a lifetime on a depleted team... I personally wasn't that impressed with ap year.

You weren't impressed with a RB recovering from an ACL to average 6.1 YPC, fall a mere 9 yards short of the rushing record and lead a lesser roster to the playoffs?!
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Rockcity wrote:
For me I think Calvin had a better year then peterson. Peterson had a great year but I just feel how thing played out for both teams was a big factor. Calvin did was once in a lifetime on a depleted team... I personally wasn't that impressed with ap year.

You weren't impressed with a RB recovering from an ACL to average 6.1 YPC, fall a mere 9 yards short of the rushing record and lead a lesser roster to the playoffs?!

Lesser roster?

You must have been watching in a parallel universe. The Lions were epicly bad. Vikings, without question, had a better overall team.

APs recovered ACL wasn't as impressive as breaking a catching record with 3 broken fingers.

CJ was leading a lesser roster.

CJ didn't fall short, he CRUSHED his record while dependent on a QB that couldn't throw his way out of a paper bag last year.

So all-in-all, everything you said was 100% bula.
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Rockcity


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Rockcity wrote:
For me I think Calvin had a better year then peterson. Peterson had a great year but I just feel how thing played out for both teams was a big factor. Calvin did was once in a lifetime on a depleted team... I personally wasn't that impressed with ap year.

You weren't impressed with a RB recovering from an ACL to average 6.1 YPC, fall a mere 9 yards short of the rushing record and lead a lesser roster to the playoffs?!
idk how bad his knee really was. And didn't we have a couple guys get 6 yards a carry this year. Weseen him flirt with 2000. You don't see many wrs flirt with 2000. He did have a couple of great games. But to me it seem a lot harder to do what cj did.

Your not impressed that some one actually breaks a record of the goat??
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YlionsY


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcity wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Rockcity wrote:
For me I think Calvin had a better year then peterson. Peterson had a great year but I just feel how thing played out for both teams was a big factor. Calvin did was once in a lifetime on a depleted team... I personally wasn't that impressed with ap year.

You weren't impressed with a RB recovering from an ACL to average 6.1 YPC, fall a mere 9 yards short of the rushing record and lead a lesser roster to the playoffs?!
idk how bad his knee really was. And didn't we have a couple guys get 6 yards a carry this year. Weseen him flirt with 2000. You don't see many wrs flirt with 2000. He did have a couple of great games. But to me it seem a lot harder to do what cj did.

Your not impressed that some one actually breaks a record of the goat??


Only Spiller was 6 as well but with 101 less carries. Lynch was next with 5.0.

Torn ACL/MCL for Peterson in December which is an injury some players never come back from. He was in MVP form throughout season.

9 yards from passing Dickerson's record all time. 9 yards.

Coming back from that injury, carrying team, missing record by 9 yards, and posting one of (if not best) rushing years ever > broken fingers/breaking record

I think its Peterson for me. CJ's arguments are valid and I could see why he would be top. There are arguments for both players.

I simply see it as an easy choice but others disagree. I can't blame them for picking Megatron. I feel like its a homer pick really especially going against a Viking but they do have a valid argument. Not strong but valid.

But thats my OPINION. There are facts to both sides of the case and looking at the facts you have to decide which one you find more impressive.

Anyways.

Two of the most impressive seasons by either player for their respective positions, two of the best players at their positions, and just fun to watch either of them.

I don't think either side of this debate is going to convince the other. Just re hashing stuff and spinning things.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Rockcity wrote:
For me I think Calvin had a better year then peterson. Peterson had a great year but I just feel how thing played out for both teams was a big factor. Calvin did was once in a lifetime on a depleted team... I personally wasn't that impressed with ap year.

You weren't impressed with a RB recovering from an ACL to average 6.1 YPC, fall a mere 9 yards short of the rushing record and lead a lesser roster to the playoffs?!

Lesser roster?

You must have been watching in a parallel universe. The Lions were epicly bad. Vikings, without question, had a better overall team.

APs recovered ACL wasn't as impressive as breaking a catching record with 3 broken fingers.

CJ was leading a lesser roster.

CJ didn't fall short, he CRUSHED his record while dependent on a QB that couldn't throw his way out of a paper bag last year.

So all-in-all, everything you said was 100% bula.

Of course. When you desperately need to defend your argument, you'll say anything to help support your point. Because, after all, you said this after we played them during week 10 in 2012:
FootballPhreak wrote:
Outside of AP/Jared Allen I don't see much on the Minny roster. And watching the game Sun really only made that perception even worse.

And...
FootballPhreak wrote:
I don't want to be that guy but.....am I the only one that watched this game and the whole time was just looking at Minny and thinking "Geez they're bad" ?

I mean seriously, how do those guys have a winning record? The '07 Lions looked better. Which is odd because Ponder looks alot like Orlovsky out there.

Terrible, just terrible. Confused

But, no. Now the argument for them being good supports your argument for CJ having a better season, so you'll flip your "opinion" in a heartbeat to give this perception that you actually have a valid point. But you don't. Ever.

The best part about you posting here is the fact that you talk a lot.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't ever lose your sense of humor. I am sure you can clearly see those comments about an opponent just before we played them have absolutely no bearing on the conversation at hand. So it was just a real lame attempt at humor.

Regardless, with the gift of hindsight, the Lions 2012 roster was epicly bad. Just horrible. Whether underperforming players or just flat untalented players, I am sure it is clear to anyone that looks at it reasonably the Lions were far worse.

EDIT: why don't you go position by position trying to compare, I am sure we could all get a good kick out of watching you try to spin that Laughing
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Don't ever lose your sense of humor. I am sure you can clearly see those comments about an opponent just before we played them have absolutely no bearing on the conversation at hand. So it was just a real lame attempt at humor.

Actually, you made those comments after they beat us. And, yes, I find it hilarious: they're roster is void of talent when you aren't struggling to make an argument.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
Don't ever lose your sense of humor. I am sure you can clearly see those comments about an opponent just before we played them have absolutely no bearing on the conversation at hand. So it was just a real lame attempt at humor.

Actually, you made those comments after they beat us. And, yes, I find it hilarious: they're roster is void of talent when you aren't struggling to make an argument.

It is always interesting to see what you leave out of quotes. Always what proves your ideas silly. Real neat study in human nature.

GL with second place Cool
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