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NFL Network's Top 100: Calvin Johnson
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
Posts: 1062
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:

And Trout ranked above Cabrera in a lot of stats and advance stats yet was trumped due to Triple Crown. The RECORD does the same.


So I ask again: So if AP had gained ten more yards, his year would have been superior to CJ's?


No. Had he beaten the record by what CJ broke record then yes


CJ's season was the best season ever for a WR, AP's was, maybe, the 2nd best season ever

So having the (maybe) 2nd best season ever for your position is better then someone who had the best season ever for their position?

What? CJ's season was NOT the best season ever for a WR. He gained the most yards. That's it. He scored only 5 TDs and fumbled 3 times. No... don't confuse setting a record with having the best season for a WR in NFL history.

What criteria are you using to determine how "good" a season is?


a mixture of relevant stats (yards, TDs, YPC, etc.) as well as the eye test.

You're going to tell me that CJ's 2012 was better than Moss's season in 2007? He set a record as well.

You're taking our argument and trying to apply it much more broadly to try and disprove it. You can't really use the argument we are using to apply to seasons from different years because there are too many confounds in place (such as rules, era, ect.). You're trying to hard, man.

What CJ did is unprecedented, what AP did has a precedent. That fact you cannot argue (other then trying to say it doesn't matter), and that is the crux of our argument. A pretty strong one, I might add Wink
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detfan782004 wrote:

Cruz is one of best WR in the game


detfan782004 wrote:

(Eli) Manning has a new look offense and he has looked really good in it.


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BlackandBlue


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2055
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:

And Trout ranked above Cabrera in a lot of stats and advance stats yet was trumped due to Triple Crown. The RECORD does the same.


So I ask again: So if AP had gained ten more yards, his year would have been superior to CJ's?


No. Had he beaten the record by what CJ broke record then yes


CJ's season was the best season ever for a WR, AP's was, maybe, the 2nd best season ever

So having the (maybe) 2nd best season ever for your position is better then someone who had the best season ever for their position?

What? CJ's season was NOT the best season ever for a WR. He gained the most yards. That's it. He scored only 5 TDs and fumbled 3 times. No... don't confuse setting a record with having the best season for a WR in NFL history.

What criteria are you using to determine how "good" a season is?


a mixture of relevant stats (yards, TDs, YPC, etc.) as well as the eye test.

You're going to tell me that CJ's 2012 was better than Moss's season in 2007? He set a record as well.

You're taking our argument and trying to apply it much more broadly to try and disprove it. You can't really use the argument we are using to apply to seasons from different years because there are too many confounds in place (such as rules, era, ect.). You're trying to hard, man.

What CJ did is unprecedented, what AP did has a precedent. That fact you cannot argue (other then trying to say it doesn't matter), and that is the crux of our argument. A pretty strong one, I might add Wink


That's exactly what you're doing with AP's season though.

I'll ask you too: if AP had gained ten more yards, you would place his season above CJ's?
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detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.


Last edited by BlackandBlue on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BlackandBlue


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2055
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
It literally AMAZES me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding bulk yards in this high a regard. How much good did bulk yards do us last year?


HIs yards have nothing to do with ST allowing TDs, Stafford sucking it up, or no running game.

It literally Amazes me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding the losses against Calvin


The best WR in the league- and CJ is, in my opinion, far and way the best WR in the league- should score more than 5 TDs in a year. Was it ALL on him? No. But a lot of it was. He struggled with end zone and goal line coverage he dominated against last year.
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detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 49812
Location: Montana
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
It literally AMAZES me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding bulk yards in this high a regard. How much good did bulk yards do us last year?


HIs yards have nothing to do with ST allowing TDs, Stafford sucking it up, or no running game.

It literally Amazes me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding the losses against Calvin


The best WR in the league- and CJ is, in my opinion, far and way the best WR in the league- should score more than 5 TDs in a year. Was it ALL on him? No. But a lot of it was. He struggled with end zone and goal line coverage he dominated against last year.


I agree if he was not missing Burleson, Young, Broyles, Pettigrew missed time.

His #2 WR was a practice squad guy Durham for several games.

No run game.

Once again penalizing Calvin for facing triple coverage which he did not see as much of in 2011 when he had others to help him
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BlackandBlue


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2055
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
It literally AMAZES me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding bulk yards in this high a regard. How much good did bulk yards do us last year?


HIs yards have nothing to do with ST allowing TDs, Stafford sucking it up, or no running game.

It literally Amazes me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding the losses against Calvin


The best WR in the league- and CJ is, in my opinion, far and way the best WR in the league- should score more than 5 TDs in a year. Was it ALL on him? No. But a lot of it was. He struggled with end zone and goal line coverage he dominated against last year.


I agree if he was not missing Burleson, Young, Broyles, Pettigrew missed time.

His #2 WR was a practice squad guy Durham for several games.

No run game.

Once again penalizing Calvin for facing triple coverage which he did not see as much of in 2011 when he had others to help him


He faced the same kind of coverage in 2011. The screencaps posted earlier in this thread are from the first half of 2011. The saints basically attached two defenders to his hip the entire game in the playoffs and he still got 2 TDs.
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detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 49812
Location: Montana
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
It literally AMAZES me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding bulk yards in this high a regard. How much good did bulk yards do us last year?


HIs yards have nothing to do with ST allowing TDs, Stafford sucking it up, or no running game.

It literally Amazes me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding the losses against Calvin


The best WR in the league- and CJ is, in my opinion, far and way the best WR in the league- should score more than 5 TDs in a year. Was it ALL on him? No. But a lot of it was. He struggled with end zone and goal line coverage he dominated against last year.


I agree if he was not missing Burleson, Young, Broyles, Pettigrew missed time.

His #2 WR was a practice squad guy Durham for several games.

No run game.

Once again penalizing Calvin for facing triple coverage which he did not see as much of in 2011 when he had others to help him


He faced the same kind of coverage in 2011. The screencaps posted earlier in this thread are from the first half of 2011. The saints basically attached two defenders to his hip the entire game in the playoffs and he still got 2 TDs.


Limited in 2011. Pretty much all the time in 2012 because there was NO OTHER threat.

Comparing his 2011 to 2012 is a fail without taking notice that Kris freaking Durham was the #2 defenses had to focus on

Real quality there Rolling Eyes
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BlackandBlue


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2055
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
It literally AMAZES me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding bulk yards in this high a regard. How much good did bulk yards do us last year?


HIs yards have nothing to do with ST allowing TDs, Stafford sucking it up, or no running game.

It literally Amazes me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding the losses against Calvin


The best WR in the league- and CJ is, in my opinion, far and way the best WR in the league- should score more than 5 TDs in a year. Was it ALL on him? No. But a lot of it was. He struggled with end zone and goal line coverage he dominated against last year.


I agree if he was not missing Burleson, Young, Broyles, Pettigrew missed time.

His #2 WR was a practice squad guy Durham for several games.

No run game.

Once again penalizing Calvin for facing triple coverage which he did not see as much of in 2011 when he had others to help him


He faced the same kind of coverage in 2011. The screencaps posted earlier in this thread are from the first half of 2011. The saints basically attached two defenders to his hip the entire game in the playoffs and he still got 2 TDs.


Limited in 2011. Pretty much all the time in 2012 because there was NO OTHER threat.

Comparing his 2011 to 2012 is a fail without taking notice that Kris freaking Durham was the #2 defenses had to focus on

Real quality there Rolling Eyes


Calvin scored 4 of his five touchdowns AFTER Burleson was injured.

Your argument isn't backed up by actual facts, at all.
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detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 49812
Location: Montana
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
It literally AMAZES me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding bulk yards in this high a regard. How much good did bulk yards do us last year?


HIs yards have nothing to do with ST allowing TDs, Stafford sucking it up, or no running game.

It literally Amazes me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding the losses against Calvin


The best WR in the league- and CJ is, in my opinion, far and way the best WR in the league- should score more than 5 TDs in a year. Was it ALL on him? No. But a lot of it was. He struggled with end zone and goal line coverage he dominated against last year.


I agree if he was not missing Burleson, Young, Broyles, Pettigrew missed time.

His #2 WR was a practice squad guy Durham for several games.

No run game.

Once again penalizing Calvin for facing triple coverage which he did not see as much of in 2011 when he had others to help him


He faced the same kind of coverage in 2011. The screencaps posted earlier in this thread are from the first half of 2011. The saints basically attached two defenders to his hip the entire game in the playoffs and he still got 2 TDs.


Limited in 2011. Pretty much all the time in 2012 because there was NO OTHER threat.

Comparing his 2011 to 2012 is a fail without taking notice that Kris freaking Durham was the #2 defenses had to focus on

Real quality there Rolling Eyes


Calvin scored 4 of his five touchdowns AFTER Burleson was injured.

Your argument isn't backed up by actual facts, at all.


Looking at opponents it is easy to see why. He played worse passing D

Looking at stats fail. Done arguing this. You simply are not looking at the entire picture but I guess that is not possible by watching 8 min clips.

Peace
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BlackandBlue


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2055
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
It literally AMAZES me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding bulk yards in this high a regard. How much good did bulk yards do us last year?


HIs yards have nothing to do with ST allowing TDs, Stafford sucking it up, or no running game.

It literally Amazes me that any Lions fan who watched our season last year can be holding the losses against Calvin


The best WR in the league- and CJ is, in my opinion, far and way the best WR in the league- should score more than 5 TDs in a year. Was it ALL on him? No. But a lot of it was. He struggled with end zone and goal line coverage he dominated against last year.


I agree if he was not missing Burleson, Young, Broyles, Pettigrew missed time.

His #2 WR was a practice squad guy Durham for several games.

No run game.

Once again penalizing Calvin for facing triple coverage which he did not see as much of in 2011 when he had others to help him


He faced the same kind of coverage in 2011. The screencaps posted earlier in this thread are from the first half of 2011. The saints basically attached two defenders to his hip the entire game in the playoffs and he still got 2 TDs.


Limited in 2011. Pretty much all the time in 2012 because there was NO OTHER threat.

Comparing his 2011 to 2012 is a fail without taking notice that Kris freaking Durham was the #2 defenses had to focus on

Real quality there Rolling Eyes


Calvin scored 4 of his five touchdowns AFTER Burleson was injured.

Your argument isn't backed up by actual facts, at all.


Looking at opponents it is easy to see why. He played worse passing D

Looking at stats fail. Done arguing this. You simply are not looking at the entire picture but I guess that is not possible by watching 8 min clips.

Peace


says the guy that thinks breaking the yardage record makes a season de facto the greatest ever.

I watched every Lions game the past two years. Calvin was not as effective in the end zone. I don't need stats to see that with my own eyes.

And for the record, looking at stats and highlight clips is better than literally making up stuff.
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detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 25782
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:

And Trout ranked above Cabrera in a lot of stats and advance stats yet was trumped due to Triple Crown. The RECORD does the same.


So I ask again: So if AP had gained ten more yards, his year would have been superior to CJ's?


No. Had he beaten the record by what CJ broke record then yes


CJ's season was the best season ever for a WR, AP's was, maybe, the 2nd best season ever

So having the (maybe) 2nd best season ever for your position is better then someone who had the best season ever for their position?

What? CJ's season was NOT the best season ever for a WR. He gained the most yards. That's it. He scored only 5 TDs and fumbled 3 times. No... don't confuse setting a record with having the best season for a WR in NFL history.

What criteria are you using to determine how "good" a season is?


a mixture of relevant stats (yards, TDs, YPC, etc.) as well as the eye test.

You're going to tell me that CJ's 2012 was better than Moss's season in 2007? He set a record as well.

You're taking our argument and trying to apply it much more broadly to try and disprove it. You can't really use the argument we are using to apply to seasons from different years because there are too many confounds in place (such as rules, era, ect.). You're trying to hard, man.

What CJ did is unprecedented, what AP did has a precedent. That fact you cannot argue (other then trying to say it doesn't matter), and that is the crux of our argument. A pretty strong one, I might add Wink

So then, tell me which is a better season for a WR: 1,975 yards, 5 TDs, 15 drops and 3 lost fumbles or 1,900 yards, 20 TDs, 2 drops and 0 fumbles. One sets the yardage record, while the other is undeniably better.

Which is why the record isn't, and shouldn't be, a main factor.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:

And Trout ranked above Cabrera in a lot of stats and advance stats yet was trumped due to Triple Crown. The RECORD does the same.


So I ask again: So if AP had gained ten more yards, his year would have been superior to CJ's?


No. Had he beaten the record by what CJ broke record then yes


CJ's season was the best season ever for a WR, AP's was, maybe, the 2nd best season ever

So having the (maybe) 2nd best season ever for your position is better then someone who had the best season ever for their position?

What? CJ's season was NOT the best season ever for a WR. He gained the most yards. That's it. He scored only 5 TDs and fumbled 3 times. No... don't confuse setting a record with having the best season for a WR in NFL history.

What criteria are you using to determine how "good" a season is?


a mixture of relevant stats (yards, TDs, YPC, etc.) as well as the eye test.

You're going to tell me that CJ's 2012 was better than Moss's season in 2007? He set a record as well.

You're taking our argument and trying to apply it much more broadly to try and disprove it. You can't really use the argument we are using to apply to seasons from different years because there are too many confounds in place (such as rules, era, ect.). You're trying to hard, man.

What CJ did is unprecedented, what AP did has a precedent. That fact you cannot argue (other then trying to say it doesn't matter), and that is the crux of our argument. A pretty strong one, I might add Wink

So then, tell me which is a better season for a WR: 1,975 yards, 5 TDs, 15 drops and 3 lost fumbles or 1,900 yards, 20 TDs, 2 drops and 0 fumbles. One sets the yardage record, while the other is undeniably better.

Which is why the record isn't, and shouldn't be, a main factor.


That's a really good example TL.

I understand there are different opinions on it and I can see everyone's point of view.

I think it all depends where a fan places their priorities. CJ had a great season but AP had an equally amazing season but also had the scoring and YPC which to me pushes him over the top.

Its interesting whenever there are debates about who the greatest is, winning is a large part of the equation except that seems to have zero weight in this discussion.

The argument can even carry over to Stafford. Is he the best because of his passing yards the last two seasons? I don't think anyone would answer yes because we all know there is so much more to the equation than yards.

I'm simply not one that can overlook AP's season because he fell short of a yardage record while CJ gained yards but his season was lacking in other areas.

I'm not going to look it up but I don't believe CJ was even in consideration for MVP or OPOY. AP won and Peyton Manning was second.

AP having a great season doesn't detract from CJ's accomplishment in the slightest. He had a great season for a WR.
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
Its interesting whenever there are debates about who the greatest is, winning is a large part of the equation except that seems to have zero weight in this discussion.

For reference, and we have had this discussion in person before, to this day I fully believe Marino was the best QB to ever play the game. I am fortunate to have seen most the QBs that are in that discussion and to me he was clearly just the best of them all. Now I do believe winning can have a place in a discussion when it is close or the eye test tells you otherwise they are very even. But in no way should it be the only deciding factor when comparing personal accomplishments within a team sport.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that TLs skewed comparison is a good example at all. We are not talking about a player that barely missed a record and one that barely beat one. We are talking about a player that completely shattered a record and overshadowed anyone in his position to ever play the game leaving very little doubt. Just an absolutely dominating performance in which TLs example downplays completely.
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Draft_FanAddict wrote:
If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head?


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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post DHLF. Very reasonable.

I, personally, don't think setting one record makes one season better than another by default. Some of you are arguing that, if AD gained .565 more yards per game, his season would then be better than CJ's. I don't think, considering his average and TDs, he needs that.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Nice post DHLF. Very reasonable.

I, personally, don't think setting one record makes one season better than another by default. Some of you are arguing that, if AD gained .565 more yards per game, his season would then be better than CJ's. I don't think, considering his average and TDs, he needs that.

That was never the argument. You try to make it into that so you have a point. But you don't.

You lose.

Go home.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Nice post DHLF. Very reasonable.

I, personally, don't think setting one record makes one season better than another by default. Some of you are arguing that, if AD gained .565 more yards per game, his season would then be better than CJ's. I don't think, considering his average and TDs, he needs that.

That was never the argument. You try to make it into that so you have a point. But you don't.

You lose.

Go home.

But it was, though. "Calvin set a record. AD didn't. Therefore, Calvin's season was clearly better". That line of reasoning has been used numerous times in this thread.

But keep arguing with class.
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