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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Calvin was stopped - what - six times at the 1 yard line? Is that poor coaching?

Not scoring from there is. Absolutely. Great example, thanks.

Is it? If a running play fails to gain 1 yard, is that the coaches fault? I don't believe it is.

If the coach has done his homework and knows his players and his opponent, I think their decision making can make all the difference in the world. So yes, I feel that is very heavily the coaches fault if the play he calls for the player he chooses fails to accrue a single yard for the score.

If players fail to gain one yard, they failed to execute.

Not if the coach didn't put the player in the position to execute. And if the coach has done his homework, then the player will not only be in a position, but he will execute.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Calvin was stopped - what - six times at the 1 yard line? Is that poor coaching?

Not scoring from there is. Absolutely. Great example, thanks.

Is it? If a running play fails to gain 1 yard, is that the coaches fault? I don't believe it is.

If the coach has done his homework and knows his players and his opponent, I think their decision making can make all the difference in the world. So yes, I feel that is very heavily the coaches fault if the play he calls for the player he chooses fails to accrue a single yard for the score.


What about dropped passes, missed tackles, and running the wrong routes, missing game winning field goals in overtime? That's definitely execution, and was cause for a few losses.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Calvin was stopped - what - six times at the 1 yard line? Is that poor coaching?

Not scoring from there is. Absolutely. Great example, thanks.

Is it? If a running play fails to gain 1 yard, is that the coaches fault? I don't believe it is.

If the coach has done his homework and knows his players and his opponent, I think their decision making can make all the difference in the world. So yes, I feel that is very heavily the coaches fault if the play he calls for the player he chooses fails to accrue a single yard for the score.


What about dropped passes, missed tackles, and running the wrong routes, missing game winning field goals in overtime? That's definitely execution, and was cause for a few losses.

Again, it is on the coach to know his players, know his opponent, and put his players in a position in which they will execute. Yhat is all 100% coaching. Obviously no coach has been 100% in this aspect, but theoretically it would be possible except that we are human and humans are imperfect(thank goodness Smile )
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1King


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
1King wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
1King wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
What? As if all teams don't have the same 'coaching disability'?

Both coach and player decisions lead to a team's record. Schwartz is young, stubborn and hot headed, but I don't believe he was any bigger a reason for our record than lacking execution.

And I feel that teams don't have the same coaching disability. There is not coaching parity in the NFL. There is player parity due to the CB agreement though.

I guess we just don't agree on this issue. How surprising.


There is TEAM parity in the NFL, trying to isolate it to player parity or coaching parity is to dismiss relevant information/circumstances and ultimately provides an inaccurate/incomplete conclusion.

And how exactly is it that they regulate parity within the coaches?

I didn't dismiss any relevant information whatever. Rather you did by not thinking about how it is regulated. The only regulating chip is the CB agreement. Which through draft picks, FA allowances, salary cap, and other things regulates the amount of talent each team can acquire.

Coaches however...not regulated whatsoever.

No, I didn't dismiss any relevant information.


Yes, you did.

Yeah the rules of the CBA make the playing field level by making sure people abide by the same rules, but that doesnt result in talent level parity.

Coaching isnt regulated the same way/as much, but there are some regulations.

You are also discounting other influences on the outcome of a game/season such as injuries, suspensions, scheduling, weather, etc. and the role a front office can have.

No, coaching really isn't regulated. It is so little it is inconsequential. Suspensions, injuries and suck all even out. Like it or not, the natural law of averages work that out.

However take a team with Bill Belichek as coach and they will get several more wins than the same team with Schwartz at the helm.

Ask DHLF, when I did an all-time draft, I got the 3 best coaches of all time early for my HC, OC, DC. Because the talent is so close it makes very little difference, but what a good coach does with that talent can make a huge difference.


So the law of averages work out players talent and execution, injuries, suspensions, and everything else but not coaching?

Bold = I agree that Belichek is clearly the superior coach, but the underline portion is an assumption because that could never actually happen to test the theory and it also is an oversimplification that doesnt account for fit, familiarity with players and coaching staff, consistency/cohesion, structure, culture, etc.

I dont dispute that great coaching is extremely important. But even great coaches can only do so much, they arent playing the games.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Calvin was stopped - what - six times at the 1 yard line? Is that poor coaching?

Not scoring from there is. Absolutely. Great example, thanks.

Is it? If a running play fails to gain 1 yard, is that the coaches fault? I don't believe it is.

If the coach has done his homework and knows his players and his opponent, I think their decision making can make all the difference in the world. So yes, I feel that is very heavily the coaches fault if the play he calls for the player he chooses fails to accrue a single yard for the score.


What about dropped passes, missed tackles, and running the wrong routes, missing game winning field goals in overtime? That's definitely execution, and was cause for a few losses.

Again, it is on the coach to know his players, know his opponent, and put his players in a position in which they will execute. Yhat is all 100% coaching. Obviously no coach has been 100% in this aspect, but theoretically it would be possible except that we are human and humans are imperfect(thank goodness Smile )


You means humans are imperfect and even when in the right position, might not execute. We expect Calvin to catch TD's, when he drops a ball, it's not on the coaches. When Stafford mis reads a play or overthrows a WR, it doesn't mean he was in the wrong position, he just didn't execute.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Calvin was stopped - what - six times at the 1 yard line? Is that poor coaching?

Not scoring from there is. Absolutely. Great example, thanks.

Is it? If a running play fails to gain 1 yard, is that the coaches fault? I don't believe it is.

If the coach has done his homework and knows his players and his opponent, I think their decision making can make all the difference in the world. So yes, I feel that is very heavily the coaches fault if the play he calls for the player he chooses fails to accrue a single yard for the score.


What about dropped passes, missed tackles, and running the wrong routes, missing game winning field goals in overtime? That's definitely execution, and was cause for a few losses.

Again, it is on the coach to know his players, know his opponent, and put his players in a position in which they will execute. Yhat is all 100% coaching. Obviously no coach has been 100% in this aspect, but theoretically it would be possible except that we are human and humans are imperfect(thank goodness Smile )


You means humans are imperfect and even when in the right position, might not execute. We expect Calvin to catch TD's, when he drops a ball, it's not on the coaches. When Stafford mis reads a play or overthrows a WR, it doesn't mean he was in the wrong position, he just didn't execute.

I simply disagree. An excellent coach knows his opponent and knows his roster and makes the call that results in a completion. It is not CJ's or Staffords' fault they were not put in the proper position in which they would have executed.
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1King


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Calvin was stopped - what - six times at the 1 yard line? Is that poor coaching?

Not scoring from there is. Absolutely. Great example, thanks.

Is it? If a running play fails to gain 1 yard, is that the coaches fault? I don't believe it is.

If the coach has done his homework and knows his players and his opponent, I think their decision making can make all the difference in the world. So yes, I feel that is very heavily the coaches fault if the play he calls for the player he chooses fails to accrue a single yard for the score.


What about dropped passes, missed tackles, and running the wrong routes, missing game winning field goals in overtime? That's definitely execution, and was cause for a few losses.

Again, it is on the coach to know his players, know his opponent, and put his players in a position in which they will execute. Yhat is all 100% coaching. Obviously no coach has been 100% in this aspect, but theoretically it would be possible except that we are human and humans are imperfect(thank goodness Smile )


You means humans are imperfect and even when in the right position, might not execute. We expect Calvin to catch TD's, when he drops a ball, it's not on the coaches. When Stafford mis reads a play or overthrows a WR, it doesn't mean he was in the wrong position, he just didn't execute.

I simply disagree. An excellent coach knows his opponent and knows his roster and makes the call that results in a completion. It is not CJ's or Staffords' fault they were not put in the proper position in which they would have executed.


Let's say the coaches call a play where CJ is the #1 option on the play and he is running a post route.

The play is called, the blocking is executed giving Stafford time to throw the ball and CJ runs the route to get open.

Questions:

1) Stafford overthrows CJ by a half step and its incomplete, that is the coaches fault?

2) Stafford hits CJ in stride but CJ drops it, that is the coaches fault?

3) Stafford hits CJ in stride and CJ is in the process of catching the ball and securing the ball, but before the ball is secured he gets lit up by a DB who makes a great play on the ball and the pass is incomplete, that is the coaches fault?

Is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding you?
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1King wrote:
Is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding you?

Well, I might answer, but you honestly have me lost now. Gee, that was tough Laughing

Anyhow, if the play does not result in a completion, I absolutely believe there was a different play that would have. The better the coach, the better they know the factors that lead to the result, the more often they call that correct play.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly think that is the most ridiculous statement about football I have ever heard. Players play, coaches coach. They have to work together to equal success. To completely disregard human error on the players, but accept it from the coaches is hypocritical. I doubt there is another person that will agree with your stance, anywhere. Even players who have failed to execute. Plenty of times the coach calls the right play, but a throw being slightly off or a blocker slipping or a bad read by the QB makes it not work. I really don't see any counter to that that makes any sense.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
I honestly think that is the most ridiculous statement about football I have ever heard. Players play, coaches coach. They have to work together to equal success. To completely disregard human error on the players, but accept it from the coaches is hypocritical. I doubt there is another person that will agree with your stance, anywhere. Even players who have failed to execute. Plenty of times the coach calls the right play, but a throw being slightly off or a blocker slipping or a bad read by the QB makes it not work. I really don't see any counter to that that makes any sense.

Again, you are missing a good chunk of what was said. I never said players don't fail. What I said is that they do so at ~the same rate overall. And with all else being equal, the difference lies in coaching. I doubt you would find a single person analyzing the numbers wholly that would disagree with me TBH.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
I honestly think that is the most ridiculous statement about football I have ever heard. Players play, coaches coach. They have to work together to equal success. To completely disregard human error on the players, but accept it from the coaches is hypocritical. I doubt there is another person that will agree with your stance, anywhere. Even players who have failed to execute. Plenty of times the coach calls the right play, but a throw being slightly off or a blocker slipping or a bad read by the QB makes it not work. I really don't see any counter to that that makes any sense.

I strongly agree. As if a missed 20 yard FG in OT by a career 96% FG kicker is the wrong call by the coach, and not a failure to execute by the player.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
I honestly think that is the most ridiculous statement about football I have ever heard. Players play, coaches coach. They have to work together to equal success. To completely disregard human error on the players, but accept it from the coaches is hypocritical. I doubt there is another person that will agree with your stance, anywhere. Even players who have failed to execute. Plenty of times the coach calls the right play, but a throw being slightly off or a blocker slipping or a bad read by the QB makes it not work. I really don't see any counter to that that makes any sense.

Again, you are missing a good chunk of what was said. I never said players don't fail. What I said is that they do so at ~the same rate overall. And with all else being equal, the difference lies in coaching. I doubt you would find a single person analyzing the numbers wholly that would disagree with me TBH.


But they don't always fail at the same rate, or at the same time, or in the same situations. You said it yourself, humans have human error. That doesn't mean that we all have human error at the same rate. That's ridiculous to think. If that was the case we would all be robots, no need for jails, no need to play the games. I don't get how coaches get a pass and don't error at the same rate in your mind but players do. I just doesn't make sense.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
I honestly think that is the most ridiculous statement about football I have ever heard. Players play, coaches coach. They have to work together to equal success. To completely disregard human error on the players, but accept it from the coaches is hypocritical. I doubt there is another person that will agree with your stance, anywhere. Even players who have failed to execute. Plenty of times the coach calls the right play, but a throw being slightly off or a blocker slipping or a bad read by the QB makes it not work. I really don't see any counter to that that makes any sense.

Again, you are missing a good chunk of what was said. I never said players don't fail. What I said is that they do so at ~the same rate overall. And with all else being equal, the difference lies in coaching. I doubt you would find a single person analyzing the numbers wholly that would disagree with me TBH.


But they don't always fail at the same rate, or at the same time, or in the same situations. You said it yourself, humans have human error. That doesn't mean that we all have human error at the same rate. That's ridiculous to think. If that was the case we would all be robots, no need for jails, no need to play the games. I don't get how coaches get a pass and don't error at the same rate in your mind but players do. I just doesn't make sense.

The only thing ridiculous here is your inability to recognize the law of averages. To somehow think our players screwed us more than players on other teams did their teams is the only thing that doesn't make sense here. Typical homerism and doesn't look at a much broader picture that is the NFL.

The only reason another team MIGHT appear to have less human error is because they have a coach that put them in the position that they would succeed more often. That's it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
I honestly think that is the most ridiculous statement about football I have ever heard. Players play, coaches coach. They have to work together to equal success. To completely disregard human error on the players, but accept it from the coaches is hypocritical. I doubt there is another person that will agree with your stance, anywhere. Even players who have failed to execute. Plenty of times the coach calls the right play, but a throw being slightly off or a blocker slipping or a bad read by the QB makes it not work. I really don't see any counter to that that makes any sense.

Again, you are missing a good chunk of what was said. I never said players don't fail. What I said is that they do so at ~the same rate overall. And with all else being equal, the difference lies in coaching. I doubt you would find a single person analyzing the numbers wholly that would disagree with me TBH.


But they don't always fail at the same rate, or at the same time, or in the same situations. You said it yourself, humans have human error. That doesn't mean that we all have human error at the same rate. That's ridiculous to think. If that was the case we would all be robots, no need for jails, no need to play the games. I don't get how coaches get a pass and don't error at the same rate in your mind but players do. I just doesn't make sense.

The only thing ridiculous here is your inability to recognize the law of averages. To somehow think our players screwed us more than players on other teams did their teams is the only thing that doesn't make sense here. Typical homerism and doesn't look at a much broader picture that is the NFL.



Couldn't you also say the same thing about coaching?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
I honestly think that is the most ridiculous statement about football I have ever heard. Players play, coaches coach. They have to work together to equal success. To completely disregard human error on the players, but accept it from the coaches is hypocritical. I doubt there is another person that will agree with your stance, anywhere. Even players who have failed to execute. Plenty of times the coach calls the right play, but a throw being slightly off or a blocker slipping or a bad read by the QB makes it not work. I really don't see any counter to that that makes any sense.

Again, you are missing a good chunk of what was said. I never said players don't fail. What I said is that they do so at ~the same rate overall. And with all else being equal, the difference lies in coaching. I doubt you would find a single person analyzing the numbers wholly that would disagree with me TBH.


But they don't always fail at the same rate, or at the same time, or in the same situations. You said it yourself, humans have human error. That doesn't mean that we all have human error at the same rate. That's ridiculous to think. If that was the case we would all be robots, no need for jails, no need to play the games. I don't get how coaches get a pass and don't error at the same rate in your mind but players do. I just doesn't make sense.

The only thing ridiculous here is your inability to recognize the law of averages. To somehow think our players screwed us more than players on other teams did their teams is the only thing that doesn't make sense here. Typical homerism and doesn't look at a much broader picture that is the NFL.

The only reason another team MIGHT appear to have less human error is because they have a coach that put them in the position that they would succeed more often. That's it.


How is it homerism? I'm not even talking about just us but football in general. I get law of averages, but that doesn't mean it's the exact same at al. Times in all situations. The averages are that our players will fail to execute multiple times a game. We just hope those players aren't involved with the main action of the play. In general, in football, players failing to execute is the main reason a team will not win. Wether it be due to skill level (some players fail to execute more than others as well as some fail less and cover for others mistakes), coaching, or just a simple lapse on that play. Coaches don't kick field goals, they don't drop balls they should catch, and they don't miss a roaming safety and throw a pick, the players do.
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