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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25119
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got back from Toronto and a couple days watching the Jays and Yankees play.

I got to see the last pitches Mariano Rivera threw in Canada as he earned the save in the Yankees 4-3 win Wednesday night. Its such an interesting thing to see. A-Rod was booed every time he went to the plate. When Rivera exited the bull pen the crowd gave him a standing ovation until he reached the mound and started throwing. At the completion of the game the fans again acknowledged Rivera's excellence and contributions to the game.

It seems whenever I go to watch the Jays play something out of the ordinary happens. The last visit Verlander pitched a no hitter.
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stylish313


Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 15019
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebodies acting as if they've never used PFF rankings to support their position. When they rated Gosder highly, and had him registered for only 4 sacks their ratings were great.

When they registered Pettigrew with onky 6 drops in 2011, and had his drop rate on par with many of the more touted TEs around the league, it was fine to bring up PFF stats. It's a clear, convenient double standard. It happens.

I began reciting PFF stats because I got bored with the same old arguments being raked over the coals. We've done every angle, especially pertaining to Lion's players, ten times over. We've all watched every minute of every game, so the context argument is a joke- we all have context in mind when we're talking about the Lion's- we just don't agree on the context.

I saw Gosder getting pushed deep into the backfield consistently, disrupting the flow of the Lion's offense. PFF saw 4 sacks allowed and graded him as the top pass blocking RT in the NFL. TL loved it because it supported his view of Gosder. I accepted their view as neutral and unbiased, and reported their findings never really debating them.

In 2011 PFF found that Pettigrew onky dropped 6 passes on 117 targets. Many posters disputed that because they watched every game, and saw many more than 6 passes hit Pettigrew in the hands only to end incomplete. Obviously, PFF took "contact drops" into consideration. TL loved PFF for registering Pettigrew with a 6.74 drop rate, lower than many of the more touted TEs such as Gronk, Finley, and Vernon. It conveniently supported his stance.

DHLF I understand your viewpoint on the merits of these compiled stats. But even saying so, over the years you've recited stats to support your viewpoints the same as the rest of us. Each and every one of us call foul when someone uses stats that pose opposite findings from our own opinions and viewspoints. TL throws around "context" as if he's the only one using it. In the hundreds of pages of bickering ushered by you TL, there has been abundance of context you've ignored only to find some retarded arse sematical point to focus on.
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stylish313


Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 15019
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Very true DHLF. Great post.


I find the PFF ratings very interesting.

In 2010 Brady threw 4 interceptions versus 36 TD's, had a rating of 111, was a unanimous MVP yet PFF knocks him down because of a lack of spectacular plays.

This is exactly the kind of thing that frustrates me with all these sites compiling statistics. They've decided that spectacular plays are important in grading QB rankings. It makes me wonder how many other non traditional items are included throughout the grades they assign.
You know, those three stats you just presented are bulk stats- they don't tell a lot about the games either.

You don't find it intriguing that points were awarded for completing passes in double coverage? Game winning drives? Scrambling away from pressure and throwing for 1st downs and TDs? I mean, the Patriots were blowing everyone out that season. Their overall talent was unmatched, and their offensive system was pristine. Not to take anything away from Brady, but he was afforded many luxuries other QBs weren't. Who's to say a guy like Brees wouldn't have done even better if he were afforded those same luxuries that season? Rivers?

I don't have a problem with PFFs QB ratings at all. I especially love their accuracy percentage stat. But to each their own. Still not gonna pay any attention to some fool acting as if I can't watch games and come to my own conclusions. I'm a football fan first and foremost, I've been rating players since I was 10 years old. And I never needed PFF to do so. Pettigrew would be garbage if they never rated a snap, and his $3.4M cap hit is reason enough to cut his arse- we could pay Heller less than a third that amount to drop passes and allow 185 lb DBs to snatch the balls out of his hands and run the other way for TDs.
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DrRay11


Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Posts: 3284
Location: Chicago, IL
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I can hardly read this forum anymore. Same garbage in every thread. it's clear whose viewpoints are whose... Some people will value statistics, some value their own eyeballs, some value nothing at all while others will value the coaches' opinion.

OF COURSE, the forums are here, partially for debate. But do we really have to turn every thread of ours ugly??
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TL-TwoWinsAway


Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
Somebodies acting as if they've never used PFF rankings to support their position. When they rated Gosder highly, and had him registered for only 4 sacks their ratings were great.

... I never used PFF's ratings to support Gosder. I used FootballOutsiders and NFL.com statistics with context: sacks allowed, run-blocking statistics and penalties, followed by reasons as to why those numbers existed.

I know you're thinking that there's this great contradiction here, but there isn't.
stylish313 wrote:
Still not gonna pay any attention to some fool acting as if I can't watch games and come to my own conclusions.

Classy.
stylish313 wrote:
Pettigrew would be garbage if they never rated a snap, and his $3.4M cap hit is reason enough to cut his arse-

Eh, $1.2M of that is from his signing bonus. It's not like we'd be saving the full $3.4M by releasing him.
diehardlionfan wrote:
In 2010 Brady threw 4 interceptions versus 36 TD's, had a rating of 111, was a unanimous MVP yet PFF knocks him down because of a lack of spectacular plays.

This is exactly the kind of thing that frustrates me with all these sites compiling statistics. They've decided that spectacular plays are important in grading QB rankings. It makes me wonder how many other non traditional items are included throughout the grades they assign.

It's very interesting, for sure. He was almost downgraded for reading the field, finding the best option and making the throw. To have a season like that, and be ranked that low... it's interesting.
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stylish313


Joined: 17 Jan 2009
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Location: Flat Rock, Mi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrRay11 wrote:
Man, I can hardly read this forum anymore. Same garbage in every thread. it's clear whose viewpoints are whose... Some people will value statistics, some value their own eyeballs, some value nothing at all while others will value the coaches' opinion.

OF COURSE, the forums are here, partially for debate. But do we really have to turn every thread of ours ugly??
Yes, I'll stop. Enough is enough, and I'm better than that.
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Jrugges


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 9009
Location: White Lake, Mi.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Woah. Calm down champ... this had nothing to do with Pettigrew. You think you're part of the majority on Pettigrew, but you're wrong: most don't want him released right now.

PFF is just another reference site, but has considerable flaws: a player who is consistently "good" will rank below a player who is inconsistently "pretty good". Many people don't understand that about the rankings, and it's something important to note.

Lastly, I didn't "make up a stat". It's like saying "Well, two of the interceptions that Stafford threw were tipped passes". The phrase "contact drop" is meant to add context (which, considering your ties to PFF, I understand why you hate it... darn context).


Would you of posted an article like that though if Stylish wasn't using PFF stats to discredit Pettigrew?

Idk, seems like it really does have everything to do with Pettigrew and you searching for someway to discredit Stylish's and his argument that Pettigrew isn't a good blocker. He found some stats that pretty much contradicted what you said Pettigrew was valuable for(blocking.)

It's just funny that those stats bothered you enough in that argument you searched out something like you did to try and discredit PFF stats as a whole. Instead of searching for stats to back up your own theory of him being a valuable blocker.


Last edited by Jrugges on Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jrugges


Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Location: White Lake, Mi.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit*

Last edited by Jrugges on Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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IDOG_det


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 22673
Location: Ron Paul 2012 #JDI
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need a DVR so bad Laughing
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
Somebodies acting as if they've never used PFF rankings to support their position. When they rated Gosder highly, and had him registered for only 4 sacks their ratings were great.

When they registered Pettigrew with onky 6 drops in 2011, and had his drop rate on par with many of the more touted TEs around the league, it was fine to bring up PFF stats. It's a clear, convenient double standard. It happens.

I began reciting PFF stats because I got bored with the same old arguments being raked over the coals. We've done every angle, especially pertaining to Lion's players, ten times over. We've all watched every minute of every game, so the context argument is a joke- we all have context in mind when we're talking about the Lion's- we just don't agree on the context.

I saw Gosder getting pushed deep into the backfield consistently, disrupting the flow of the Lion's offense. PFF saw 4 sacks allowed and graded him as the top pass blocking RT in the NFL. TL loved it because it supported his view of Gosder. I accepted their view as neutral and unbiased, and reported their findings never really debating them.

In 2011 PFF found that Pettigrew onky dropped 6 passes on 117 targets. Many posters disputed that because they watched every game, and saw many more than 6 passes hit Pettigrew in the hands only to end incomplete. Obviously, PFF took "contact drops" into consideration. TL loved PFF for registering Pettigrew with a 6.74 drop rate, lower than many of the more touted TEs such as Gronk, Finley, and Vernon. It conveniently supported his stance.

DHLF I understand your viewpoint on the merits of these compiled stats. But even saying so, over the years you've recited stats to support your viewpoints the same as the rest of us. Each and every one of us call foul when someone uses stats that pose opposite findings from our own opinions and viewspoints. TL throws around "context" as if he's the only one using it. In the hundreds of pages of bickering ushered by you TL, there has been abundance of context you've ignored only to find some retarded arse sematical point to focus on.


Yes, I have used stats but I generally stick to the stats that aren't subjective like completion percentages, yards per catch, yards after catch etc.

That said I'm certain when you're using the subjective stats its because you've seen the same type trends when watching the game. My whole view is based on not depending completely on third party stats, especially those that have to be interpreted because different people will record it differently and probably the best example is drops.

So, I think stats have their place but when using the stats like drops they have to be used carefully. You mentioned another category above with Cherilus as a pass blocker.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jrugges wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Woah. Calm down champ... this had nothing to do with Pettigrew. You think you're part of the majority on Pettigrew, but you're wrong: most don't want him released right now.

PFF is just another reference site, but has considerable flaws: a player who is consistently "good" will rank below a player who is inconsistently "pretty good". Many people don't understand that about the rankings, and it's something important to note.

Lastly, I didn't "make up a stat". It's like saying "Well, two of the interceptions that Stafford threw were tipped passes". The phrase "contact drop" is meant to add context (which, considering your ties to PFF, I understand why you hate it... darn context).


Would you of posted an article like that though if Stylish wasn't using PFF stats to discredit Pettigrew?

Actually, yes. I've discussed PFF for quite some time now. (Regardless, if I wanted to relate this to Pettigrew, I would have posted it in the other thread.)

Jrugges wrote:
Idk, seems like it really does have everything to do with Pettigrew and you searching for someway to discredit Stylish's and his argument that Pettigrew isn't a good blocker. He found some stats that pretty much contradicted what you said Pettigrew was valuable for(blocking.)

It's just funny that those stats bothered you enough in that argument you searched out something like you did to try and discredit PFF stats as a whole. Instead of searching for stats to back up your own theory of him being a valuable blocker.

Wait... I didn't "search" to discredit PFF: it was posted somewhere else on this forum, and I felt it deserving of conversation here. I don't need to "search" to discredit his opinion: many have come forward and provided context to suggest that it isn't accurate.

And I did find stats that backed up my own theory. They were posted in the other thread. These stats weren't some persons interpretation of a certain play: they're factual numbers that support his role on the team.
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 34950
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maxwell=lol
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davisblack


Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 3190
Location: Michigan
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Maxwell=lol


All of the QB's that have played this year sucked.
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iLovetheLions


Joined: 13 Jan 2007
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Location: Michigan State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im so sick of msu right now, i love them to death but its ridiculous, second straight year of the crap
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iLovetheLions wrote:
im so sick of msu right now, i love them to death but its ridiculous, second straight year of the crap


Yup, I knew Cook looking good against Youngstown was going to ruin our season. Terry or O'Conner need a chance. If not we will waste another great defense. Rees was 14-34 for 134 yards and we lose. That's pathetic. The play calling is boring and predictable too. Not even fun to watch.
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