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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 35446
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fortdetroit wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
fortdetroit wrote:
Quote:
DE- Lions saw KVB retire and Cliff Avril leave in free agency. They also lost depth in Lawrence Jackson. This is the one unit on the team that doesn't have any starters returning and also lost the first guy off the bench. They did sign Veteran Jason Jones in FA and spent their #5 overall pick on Ezekiel Ansah out of BYU. Devin Taylor was added via 4th round pick. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are the only returning players.

2012- Avril/KVB/LoJack/Willie/Ronnell
2013- Ansah/Jones/Willie/Taylor/Ronnell

Value Increase- Negative. There is no way around this. Jason Jones might be able to provide the little production KVB gave us last season, but we are relying on a raw as hell project that has to learn how to play the game with Ansah. Despite not wanting to give Avril the money he wanted (turned down $10M per), we got considerably worse as of now and in the immediate future.


Wow, I vehemently disagree with this. Our DE's were arguably the worst set of starting DE's in the NFL last season. Don't forget the fact that Willie and Lo-Jack made little to no impact either. There is absolutely nowhere to go but up. We already hit rock bottom last year at the DE position.

We didn't bother to replace Avril with anyone proven. That's the biggest issue right now. Avril wasn't without his deficiencies, but he's been consistently very good at rushing the passer going back to the days before he was a starter even. Idonije ameliorates that loss somewhat, but it's doubtful he's going to improve us so much as keep us from regressing too much. We do have some more potential after drafting a couple of high-upside guys (Ansah and Taylor) and releasing KVB (past his prime) and LoJack (essentially a bust). But right now, at this very moment, we basically released our two starters and hope that a rookie and a 32 year old veteran that nobody wanted until yesterday can come in and fill their shoes (or hopefully exceed their production).

TL;DR: the ceiling has gone up, but our DEs' floor is also significantly lower at the moment.


Avril was HORRIBLE last year. Avril was a bottom 5-7 starting DE in the NFL last year IMO with KVB being arguably the absolute worst starting DE in the league. You'd have to almost purposely sabotage the team to not improve on what we got out of our DE's last year. That included KVB AND Avril. Both were abysmal.

And I 100% disagree with your thought that Avril was a good pass rusher last year. If he's rushing the passer well you can overlook his other deficiencies but the fact of the matter is he didn't even do that at an average level last year. Avril (along with KVB) was one of the worst DE's in the league last year at getting pressure on the QB. When pass rushing is your supposed "strength" and you can't even do that at an average level, you wont be missed.

I can't understate how bad Avril was last year. He wasn't average. He wasn't even below average. He was horrid. A small step above KVB who was arguably the worst in the NFL who started all season.

Well, just a little proof that we are prone to exaggeration when a player does not meet our expectations. Avril absolutely was average at worst last year. If you expected super star you were severely disappointed, but if you took 64 starting DEs, I can pretty much guarantee you would take Avril's performance last year over at least 32 of them.
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Rockcity


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we are fine.. I say are weakness is wr my self. Nate has always had a tuff time staying healthy and now coming back from his leg I don't expect much. It isn't some guarentee cj stays heathy. We need to add a legit outside guy.

Just my opinion but I believe raw ansah with no exp is our 2nd best De.. and will prove to have more game than avril could dream about. Lber is now the weak link on the D imo.

I wanna see guys like Fuller, Greenwood, Whitehead, and guys like Lewis get there chance and gain some exp.

Its actually starting to turn for me alittle...I'm more worried about the offence than the D... staffords health... with a new line. I see a lot of short passing..and that not making the run game anymore of a threat.. but I have a feeling ill be surprised yup when we make the playoffs.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcity wrote:
I think we are fine.. I say are weakness is wr my self. Nate has always had a tuff time staying healthy and now coming back from his leg I don't expect much. It isn't some guarentee cj stays heathy. We need to add a legit outside guy.

Just my opinion but I believe raw ansah with no exp is our 2nd best De.. and will prove to have more game than avril could dream about. Lber is now the weak link on the D imo.

I wanna see guys like Fuller, Greenwood, Whitehead, and guys like Lewis get there chance and gain some exp.

Its actually starting to turn for me alittle...I'm more worried about the offence than the D... staffords health... with a new line. I see a lot of short passing..and that not making the run game anymore of a threat.. but I have a feeling ill be surprised yup when we make the playoffs.


I'm more worried about Staffords progression than his health. He has to start beating teams with winning records.

I'm still more worried about the defence, at least until they take the field and we see what they have in game situations.
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andjordand


Joined: 03 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DetroitPride26 wrote:
fortdetroit wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
fortdetroit wrote:
Quote:
DE- Lions saw KVB retire and Cliff Avril leave in free agency. They also lost depth in Lawrence Jackson. This is the one unit on the team that doesn't have any starters returning and also lost the first guy off the bench. They did sign Veteran Jason Jones in FA and spent their #5 overall pick on Ezekiel Ansah out of BYU. Devin Taylor was added via 4th round pick. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are the only returning players.

2012- Avril/KVB/LoJack/Willie/Ronnell
2013- Ansah/Jones/Willie/Taylor/Ronnell

Value Increase- Negative. There is no way around this. Jason Jones might be able to provide the little production KVB gave us last season, but we are relying on a raw as hell project that has to learn how to play the game with Ansah. Despite not wanting to give Avril the money he wanted (turned down $10M per), we got considerably worse as of now and in the immediate future.


Wow, I vehemently disagree with this. Our DE's were arguably the worst set of starting DE's in the NFL last season. Don't forget the fact that Willie and Lo-Jack made little to no impact either. There is absolutely nowhere to go but up. We already hit rock bottom last year at the DE position.

We didn't bother to replace Avril with anyone proven. That's the biggest issue right now. Avril wasn't without his deficiencies, but he's been consistently very good at rushing the passer going back to the days before he was a starter even. Idonije ameliorates that loss somewhat, but it's doubtful he's going to improve us so much as keep us from regressing too much. We do have some more potential after drafting a couple of high-upside guys (Ansah and Taylor) and releasing KVB (past his prime) and LoJack (essentially a bust). But right now, at this very moment, we basically released our two starters and hope that a rookie and a 32 year old veteran that nobody wanted until yesterday can come in and fill their shoes (or hopefully exceed their production).

TL;DR: the ceiling has gone up, but our DEs' floor is also significantly lower at the moment.


Avril was HORRIBLE last year. Avril was a bottom 5-7 starting DE in the NFL last year IMO with KVB being arguably the absolute worst starting DE in the league. You'd have to almost purposely sabotage the team to not improve on what we got out of our DE's last year. That included KVB AND Avril. Both were abysmal.

And I 100% disagree with your thought that Avril was a good pass rusher last year. If he's rushing the passer well you can overlook his other deficiencies but the fact of the matter is he didn't even do that at an average level last year. Avril (along with KVB) was one of the worst DE's in the league last year at getting pressure on the QB. When pass rushing is your supposed "strength" and you can't even do that at an average level, you wont be missed.

I can't understate how bad Avril was last year. He wasn't average. He wasn't even below average. He was horrid. A small step above KVB who was arguably the worst in the NFL who started all season.


I agree with you fortdetroit..Avril was so overrated for some reason..I think Jason Jones is an upgrade over him...I think Mosley is upgrade over Hill. Ansah could be the next best DE in the league. You couldn't ask for a better situation with his athleticism and the wide 9. KVB was complete trash and was one of the problems with after the whistle if you actually watch closely at end of each play. At least Suh will make plays and talk trash. Corey always had penalties....I think we went from ok Dline to a really really good one. And Fairley had another "great" off season to show he should of been the #1 pick. I think we will be in for a good treat this season. At least from out Dline anyways! :lol:


Should Slay, Houston and Bentley justify their draft picks/new contract, this defensive line will have no problem disrupting the QB. The more I think about it, with these three starters and the addition of Quin and a healthy Delmas (or Hope) this secondary could be as talented as Chicago, Minny even Green Bay. I don't think I'm the only one who wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Slay produces a better rookie season than Milliner or Rhodes (though not saying he is better right now, in case any Vikings fans are casually reading).
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fortdetroit


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 1692
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
fortdetroit wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
fortdetroit wrote:
Quote:
DE- Lions saw KVB retire and Cliff Avril leave in free agency. They also lost depth in Lawrence Jackson. This is the one unit on the team that doesn't have any starters returning and also lost the first guy off the bench. They did sign Veteran Jason Jones in FA and spent their #5 overall pick on Ezekiel Ansah out of BYU. Devin Taylor was added via 4th round pick. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are the only returning players.

2012- Avril/KVB/LoJack/Willie/Ronnell
2013- Ansah/Jones/Willie/Taylor/Ronnell

Value Increase- Negative. There is no way around this. Jason Jones might be able to provide the little production KVB gave us last season, but we are relying on a raw as hell project that has to learn how to play the game with Ansah. Despite not wanting to give Avril the money he wanted (turned down $10M per), we got considerably worse as of now and in the immediate future.


Wow, I vehemently disagree with this. Our DE's were arguably the worst set of starting DE's in the NFL last season. Don't forget the fact that Willie and Lo-Jack made little to no impact either. There is absolutely nowhere to go but up. We already hit rock bottom last year at the DE position.

We didn't bother to replace Avril with anyone proven. That's the biggest issue right now. Avril wasn't without his deficiencies, but he's been consistently very good at rushing the passer going back to the days before he was a starter even. Idonije ameliorates that loss somewhat, but it's doubtful he's going to improve us so much as keep us from regressing too much. We do have some more potential after drafting a couple of high-upside guys (Ansah and Taylor) and releasing KVB (past his prime) and LoJack (essentially a bust). But right now, at this very moment, we basically released our two starters and hope that a rookie and a 32 year old veteran that nobody wanted until yesterday can come in and fill their shoes (or hopefully exceed their production).

TL;DR: the ceiling has gone up, but our DEs' floor is also significantly lower at the moment.


Avril was HORRIBLE last year. Avril was a bottom 5-7 starting DE in the NFL last year IMO with KVB being arguably the absolute worst starting DE in the league. You'd have to almost purposely sabotage the team to not improve on what we got out of our DE's last year. That included KVB AND Avril. Both were abysmal.

And I 100% disagree with your thought that Avril was a good pass rusher last year. If he's rushing the passer well you can overlook his other deficiencies but the fact of the matter is he didn't even do that at an average level last year. Avril (along with KVB) was one of the worst DE's in the league last year at getting pressure on the QB. When pass rushing is your supposed "strength" and you can't even do that at an average level, you wont be missed.

I can't understate how bad Avril was last year. He wasn't average. He wasn't even below average. He was horrid. A small step above KVB who was arguably the worst in the NFL who started all season.

Well, just a little proof that we are prone to exaggeration when a player does not meet our expectations. Avril absolutely was average at worst last year. If you expected super star you were severely disappointed, but if you took 64 starting DEs, I can pretty much guarantee you would take Avril's performance last year over at least 32 of them.


I know PFF isn't everything but he was literally (along with KVB) one of the worst DEs in the league at getting pressure on the QB. Considering that's his supposed strength and those numbers matched my eye test of him making little impact I do not feel I am exaggerating at all.

I expected a DE who while he may have deficiencies in the run game still got good pressure on the QB on a consistent basis. I got a DE who did neither effectively.

Why do you think he had the settle for a 2 year 15 million, 4.5 million SB contract? The league saw what I saw. He's average at best and was coming off of a horrible year. He was good in 2011 and horrible in 2012. Maybe he bounces back next year IDK, but I know he was really bad in 2012 and the league felt the same judging by their collective interest in signing him as evidenced by his contract.
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fortdetroit wrote:
Why do you think he had the settle for a 2 year 15 million, 4.5 million SB contract? The league saw what I saw. He's average at best and was coming off of a horrible year. He was good in 2011 and horrible in 2012. Maybe he bounces back next year IDK, but I know he was really bad in 2012 and the league felt the same judging by their collective interest in signing him as evidenced by his contract.

Well, once again, that says it all. Horrible DEs do not get 7.5mill per.

The league saw what I saw.
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Rockcity


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
Rockcity wrote:
I think we are fine.. I say are weakness is wr my self. Nate has always had a tuff time staying healthy and now coming back from his leg I don't expect much. It isn't some guarentee cj stays heathy. We need to add a legit outside guy.

Just my opinion but I believe raw ansah with no exp is our 2nd best De.. and will prove to have more game than avril could dream about. Lber is now the weak link on the D imo.

I wanna see guys like Fuller, Greenwood, Whitehead, and guys like Lewis get there chance and gain some exp.

Its actually starting to turn for me alittle...I'm more worried about the offence than the D... staffords health... with a new line. I see a lot of short passing..and that not making the run game anymore of a threat.. but I have a feeling ill be surprised yup when we make the playoffs.


I'm more worried about Staffords progression than his health. He has to start beating teams with winning records.

I'm still more worried about the defence, at least until they take the field and we see what they have in game situations.
this is his contract yr and I think he takes the next step. I feel the only real progression he needs is his pocket awareness. My expections tho aren't too lofty for him. I just hope with the team we got now he isn't the scap goat and aint the only reason we win games. This running game needs to show more..
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcity wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
Rockcity wrote:
I think we are fine.. I say are weakness is wr my self. Nate has always had a tuff time staying healthy and now coming back from his leg I don't expect much. It isn't some guarentee cj stays heathy. We need to add a legit outside guy.

Just my opinion but I believe raw ansah with no exp is our 2nd best De.. and will prove to have more game than avril could dream about. Lber is now the weak link on the D imo.

I wanna see guys like Fuller, Greenwood, Whitehead, and guys like Lewis get there chance and gain some exp.

Its actually starting to turn for me alittle...I'm more worried about the offence than the D... staffords health... with a new line. I see a lot of short passing..and that not making the run game anymore of a threat.. but I have a feeling ill be surprised yup when we make the playoffs.


I'm more worried about Staffords progression than his health. He has to start beating teams with winning records.

I'm still more worried about the defence, at least until they take the field and we see what they have in game situations.
this is his contract yr and I think he takes the next step. I feel the only real progression he needs is his pocket awareness. My expections tho aren't too lofty for him. I just hope with the team we got now he isn't the scap goat and aint the only reason we win games. This running game needs to show more..


I agree the running game needs to show more but so does Stafford. Based on what I've observed from Stafford I don't think the contract year means much. I see Stafford as the type of player that gives his best every game.

Unfortunately at this stage of his career he simply needs to be better. He's been given slack because of the injuries, and the inexperience due to lack of games played his first two years.

The organization and talent will never be perfect, the time is now.

He has to read coverages better. He has to take more snaps under center and he has to be consistent.

I don't know if its true but I read that Stafford only has one career win against teams that finished the season .500 or better.
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BlackandBlue


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:

Well, just a little proof that we are prone to exaggeration when a player does not meet our expectations. Avril absolutely was average at worst last year. If you expected super star you were severely disappointed, but if you took 64 starting DEs, I can pretty much guarantee you would take Avril's performance last year over at least 32 of them.


He was in a scheme that enhanced his best attributes. Jason Babin got 19 sacks playing in this scheme. Is anyone arguing he's an average defensive end now?
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:

Well, just a little proof that we are prone to exaggeration when a player does not meet our expectations. Avril absolutely was average at worst last year. If you expected super star you were severely disappointed, but if you took 64 starting DEs, I can pretty much guarantee you would take Avril's performance last year over at least 32 of them.


He was in a scheme that enhanced his best attributes. Jason Babin got 19 sacks playing in this scheme. Is anyone arguing he's an average defensive end now?

Above average?

What you want?

EDIT: Tell you what. Give me 35 honest names of DEs that did better than him and I will concede he was less than average.

And for me to concede that he was "one of the worst" as you guys claim, name me ~55 starting DEs that were worse.
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BlackandBlue


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:

Well, just a little proof that we are prone to exaggeration when a player does not meet our expectations. Avril absolutely was average at worst last year. If you expected super star you were severely disappointed, but if you took 64 starting DEs, I can pretty much guarantee you would take Avril's performance last year over at least 32 of them.


He was in a scheme that enhanced his best attributes. Jason Babin got 19 sacks playing in this scheme. Is anyone arguing he's an average defensive end now?

Above average?

What you want?

EDIT: Tell you what. Give me 35 honest names of DEs that did better than him and I will concede he was less than average.

And for me to concede that he was "one of the worst" as you guys claim, name me ~55 starting DEs that were worse.


When did I ever say Avril was below average last year? That's my first post commenting on Avril at all.

My point is that Avril was in a scheme designed to get the most out of skillset. He SHOULD have been above average, given how well our defensive tackles played.

This is the scheme that made Babin look like a top 3 pass rusher.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:

Well, just a little proof that we are prone to exaggeration when a player does not meet our expectations. Avril absolutely was average at worst last year. If you expected super star you were severely disappointed, but if you took 64 starting DEs, I can pretty much guarantee you would take Avril's performance last year over at least 32 of them.


He was in a scheme that enhanced his best attributes. Jason Babin got 19 sacks playing in this scheme. Is anyone arguing he's an average defensive end now?

Above average?

What you want?

EDIT: Tell you what. Give me 35 honest names of DEs that did better than him and I will concede he was less than average.

And for me to concede that he was "one of the worst" as you guys claim, name me ~55 starting DEs that were worse.


When did I ever say Avril was below average last year? That's my first post commenting on Avril at all.

My point is that Avril was in a scheme designed to get the most out of skillset. He SHOULD have been above average, given how well our defensive tackles played.

This is the scheme that made Babin look like a top 3 pass rusher.

**sigh**

You really should clarify your point when you make it. Even now looking at your comment it sure reads like you are agreeing he is one of the worst DEs in the league.

Anyhow, sure, the whole idea is to get in a scheme that best showcases your talents. No different from 1696 other NFL players' goals. Regardless, he was at least an average DE last year. And he certainly got paid as though he was greater than average. Honestly, I think SEA's scheme is going to make him horrible. Bad idea by him in this case to chase the money. LoJack wholly underachieved over there and did well with us. Our schemes just don't match up for DE skillset IMO.
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BlackandBlue


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:

Well, just a little proof that we are prone to exaggeration when a player does not meet our expectations. Avril absolutely was average at worst last year. If you expected super star you were severely disappointed, but if you took 64 starting DEs, I can pretty much guarantee you would take Avril's performance last year over at least 32 of them.


He was in a scheme that enhanced his best attributes. Jason Babin got 19 sacks playing in this scheme. Is anyone arguing he's an average defensive end now?

Above average?

What you want?

EDIT: Tell you what. Give me 35 honest names of DEs that did better than him and I will concede he was less than average.

And for me to concede that he was "one of the worst" as you guys claim, name me ~55 starting DEs that were worse.


When did I ever say Avril was below average last year? That's my first post commenting on Avril at all.

My point is that Avril was in a scheme designed to get the most out of skillset. He SHOULD have been above average, given how well our defensive tackles played.

This is the scheme that made Babin look like a top 3 pass rusher.

**sigh**

You really should clarify your point when you make it. Even now looking at your comment it sure reads like you are agreeing he is one of the worst DEs in the league.

Anyhow, sure, the whole idea is to get in a scheme that best showcases your talents. No different from 1696 other NFL players' goals. Regardless, he was at least an average DE last year. And he certainly got paid as though he was greater than average. Honestly, I think SEA's scheme is going to make him horrible. Bad idea by him in this case to chase the money. LoJack wholly underachieved over there and did well with us. Our schemes just don't match up for DE skillset IMO.


I didn't even mention Avril's name before I responded to you. I was talking solely about KVB. Maybe you're confusing me with a different poster.

For the record, I think Avril is slightly above average.
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fortdetroit


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
fortdetroit wrote:
Why do you think he had the settle for a 2 year 15 million, 4.5 million SB contract? The league saw what I saw. He's average at best and was coming off of a horrible year. He was good in 2011 and horrible in 2012. Maybe he bounces back next year IDK, but I know he was really bad in 2012 and the league felt the same judging by their collective interest in signing him as evidenced by his contract.

Well, once again, that says it all. Horrible DEs do not get 7.5mill per.

The league saw what I saw.


I never said he was a horrible DE. I said he had a horrible year. There's a huge difference. If we were trying to replace 2011 Avril I would be more concerned. But we're not. We're trying to replace the 2012 version of Avril who was bad. He still got 7.5 million or whatever because he has been good in the past and i'm sure the Seahawks believe he is young enough to rebound from his bad year.
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stafford=legend


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting post, Louis Friend. However, I have to disagree on one point: the defensive line. Ezekial Ansah—the 5th overall draft pick—will be starting on the defensive line along with Ndamukong Suh and Nick Fairley—both 2nd and 13th overall picks respecively. Very few, if any teams in the NFL have that much talent on their D-line. I believe our defensive line will become an asset to our team this year.
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