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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
Idunno, zero sacks through ten games is going to be ahrd to match, but I think Ansah can match those lofty expectations.

Do EVERYONE a favor and don't judge performance based on sacks. Only gives credence to Detfan's Madden comment.


Well I set a sack limit on Ansah too...lol

Ya, think I commented how silly it was then as well Laughing
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
Idunno, zero sacks through ten games is going to be ahrd to match, but I think Ansah can match those lofty expectations.

Do EVERYONE a favor and don't judge performance based on sacks. Only gives credence to Detfan's Madden comment.


Well I set a sack limit on Ansah too...lol

Ya, think I commented how silly it was then as well Laughing


Only reason I did was that's his only trick right now. If you draft a one trick pony he better be good at it until he develops more
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
Idunno, zero sacks through ten games is going to be ahrd to match, but I think Ansah can match those lofty expectations.

Do EVERYONE a favor and don't judge performance based on sacks. Only gives credence to Detfan's Madden comment.


Well I set a sack limit on Ansah too...lol

Ya, think I commented how silly it was then as well Laughing


Only reason I did was that's his only trick right now. If you draft a one trick pony he better be good at it until he develops more


I still don't see how that's his one trick. It wasn't his trick at BYU, he was a run stuffer first, pass rusher second. He was misused and his physical abilities are what he was drafted on, but nothing I have read, seen, or heard says he is a one trick pony. In fact I expect his pass rushing to be raw and need time to develop, while his ability to impact the run game now seems more likely.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
Idunno, zero sacks through ten games is going to be ahrd to match, but I think Ansah can match those lofty expectations.

Do EVERYONE a favor and don't judge performance based on sacks. Only gives credence to Detfan's Madden comment.


Well I set a sack limit on Ansah too...lol

Ya, think I commented how silly it was then as well Laughing


Only reason I did was that's his only trick right now. If you draft a one trick pony he better be good at it until he develops more


I still don't see how that's his one trick. It wasn't his trick at BYU, he was a run stuffer first, pass rusher second. He was misused and his physical abilities are what he was drafted on, but nothing I have read, seen, or heard says he is a one trick pony. In fact I expect his pass rushing to be raw and need time to develop, while his ability to impact the run game now seems more likely.


We shall see. He should be everything based on people putting him down as upgrade
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think he is an upgrade as far as pass rushing, but is an upgrade as far as run defense from Avril. He is bigger and stronger and more experienced in being a run stuffer. His Senior Bowl shows their is potential for the pass rushing, but won't call him a pass rushing upgrade to Avril now. I do think he and Jones/whoever starts the other side will be better pass rushers than KVB, which leads me to think the overall stance on DE is even, maybe a slight downgrade.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
I don't think he is an upgrade as far as pass rushing, but is an upgrade as far as run defense from Avril. He is bigger and stronger and more experienced in being a run stuffer. His Senior Bowl shows their is potential for the pass rushing, but won't call him a pass rushing upgrade to Avril now. I do think he and Jones/whoever starts the other side will be better pass rushers than KVB, which leads me to think the overall stance on DE is even, maybe a slight downgrade.


Exp is zero at NFL level though which is issue. Saying anything is upgrade based on prior level only is my issue. Hope he is upgrade
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
I don't think he is an upgrade as far as pass rushing, but is an upgrade as far as run defense from Avril. He is bigger and stronger and more experienced in being a run stuffer. His Senior Bowl shows their is potential for the pass rushing, but won't call him a pass rushing upgrade to Avril now. I do think he and Jones/whoever starts the other side will be better pass rushers than KVB, which leads me to think the overall stance on DE is even, maybe a slight downgrade.


Exp is zero at NFL level though which is issue. Saying anything is upgrade based on prior level only is my issue. Hope he is upgrade


Perhaps I'm jaded by the numerous players drafted by Detroit and hyped to death only to watch them never meet let alone exceed expectations.

Ansah seems to have lots of potential but until that translates to results on the field he's a raw rookie in my opinion.
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SuhPLEX


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with both sides to a degree.

I think a lot of time we put too much stock into rookies. They are overhyped big time. All we can really base their worth on is their talent/technique/measurables. It does generally take them time to get acclimated to the NFL game. However, that doesn't mean that 100% of the time (with one in a generation players being the exception) they cannot be viewed as upgrades.

The conversation, however, is about whether Ansah is an upgrade over KVB. KVB was TERRIBLE last year. Based on talent alone, regardless of experience, I expect Ansah to have a better impact on our defense right out the gate then KVB did.

This isn't a testament of how good Ansah is supposed to be. This is a testament as to how bad KVB was.
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Jrugges


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lions, imo, should be more like the 2011 lions than the 2012 lions. Not saying they'll be a playoff team again either but they should remain competitive throughout the season this year. The guys we've been bringing in are solid depth guys, better than we had last year at depth, some even fringe starters ( Harris/Scott/Hope/Jones ) An clearly have upgraded other areas with the additions of S Glover/ RB Bush. Not sure about our first two draft picks honestly( Slay/Ziggy) but if either work out as a starter then, pretty much by default the defense will be better than last year. I think they hit the nail on the head with Warford. He does two things this team really needed, upgrades run blocking in the middle, and pass protection up the middle. This pick helps out players like Stafford, Calvin, and Bush, which is a good thing cause it's where all our money is invested in the offense.

Still think Packers are kings of the North, Eddie Lacey in that offense is boggling my mind right now. But the Bears, imo, didn't add enough to pull away from us or the Vikings and the Vikings imo, will only be as good as AP/the defense lets them be. I don't have faith Ponder will ever be able to put up points consistently week in and out and don't have faith he can drive the team down for a game winner. We'll see though, for Ponder he's got the players around him now.
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BlackandBlue


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
I agree with both sides to a degree.

I think a lot of time we put too much stock into rookies. They are overhyped big time. All we can really base their worth on is their talent/technique/measurables. It does generally take them time to get acclimated to the NFL game. However, that doesn't mean that 100% of the time (with one in a generation players being the exception) they cannot be viewed as upgrades.

The conversation, however, is about whether Ansah is an upgrade over KVB. KVB was TERRIBLE last year. Based on talent alone, regardless of experience, I expect Ansah to have a better impact on our defense right out the gate then KVB did.

This isn't a testament of how good Ansah is supposed to be. This is a testament as to how bad KVB was.


THANK YOU. This is all I have been getting at. The defense with KVB on the field is as close to 11 on 10 as you could have gotten. He was that bad. A below average starter could have done better in his place.
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fortdetroit


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
DE- Lions saw KVB retire and Cliff Avril leave in free agency. They also lost depth in Lawrence Jackson. This is the one unit on the team that doesn't have any starters returning and also lost the first guy off the bench. They did sign Veteran Jason Jones in FA and spent their #5 overall pick on Ezekiel Ansah out of BYU. Devin Taylor was added via 4th round pick. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are the only returning players.

2012- Avril/KVB/LoJack/Willie/Ronnell
2013- Ansah/Jones/Willie/Taylor/Ronnell

Value Increase- Negative. There is no way around this. Jason Jones might be able to provide the little production KVB gave us last season, but we are relying on a raw as hell project that has to learn how to play the game with Ansah. Despite not wanting to give Avril the money he wanted (turned down $10M per), we got considerably worse as of now and in the immediate future.


Wow, I vehemently disagree with this. Our DE's were arguably the worst set of starting DE's in the NFL last season. Don't forget the fact that Willie and Lo-Jack made little to no impact either. There is absolutely nowhere to go but up. We already hit rock bottom last year at the DE position.
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RyanFuller003


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fortdetroit wrote:
Quote:
DE- Lions saw KVB retire and Cliff Avril leave in free agency. They also lost depth in Lawrence Jackson. This is the one unit on the team that doesn't have any starters returning and also lost the first guy off the bench. They did sign Veteran Jason Jones in FA and spent their #5 overall pick on Ezekiel Ansah out of BYU. Devin Taylor was added via 4th round pick. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are the only returning players.

2012- Avril/KVB/LoJack/Willie/Ronnell
2013- Ansah/Jones/Willie/Taylor/Ronnell

Value Increase- Negative. There is no way around this. Jason Jones might be able to provide the little production KVB gave us last season, but we are relying on a raw as hell project that has to learn how to play the game with Ansah. Despite not wanting to give Avril the money he wanted (turned down $10M per), we got considerably worse as of now and in the immediate future.


Wow, I vehemently disagree with this. Our DE's were arguably the worst set of starting DE's in the NFL last season. Don't forget the fact that Willie and Lo-Jack made little to no impact either. There is absolutely nowhere to go but up. We already hit rock bottom last year at the DE position.

We didn't bother to replace Avril with anyone proven. That's the biggest issue right now. Avril wasn't without his deficiencies, but he's been consistently very good at rushing the passer going back to the days before he was a starter even. Idonije ameliorates that loss somewhat, but it's doubtful he's going to improve us so much as keep us from regressing too much. We do have some more potential after drafting a couple of high-upside guys (Ansah and Taylor) and releasing KVB (past his prime) and LoJack (essentially a bust). But right now, at this very moment, we basically released our two starters and hope that a rookie and a 32 year old veteran that nobody wanted until yesterday can come in and fill their shoes (or hopefully exceed their production).

TL;DR: the ceiling has gone up, but our DEs' floor is also significantly lower at the moment.
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Whiffleballtony


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would seem like a stretch to believe that Ansah will out produce Avril. I do however feel that our new defensive ends will improve our defensive production as a whole.

A) I feel it will force the QB to remain in and setup up into the pocket. This will maximize our DT promise at interior rushers.

B) It will protect our linebackers.

C) Improved rush will allow our improved secondary to perform.
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fortdetroit


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanFuller003 wrote:
fortdetroit wrote:
Quote:
DE- Lions saw KVB retire and Cliff Avril leave in free agency. They also lost depth in Lawrence Jackson. This is the one unit on the team that doesn't have any starters returning and also lost the first guy off the bench. They did sign Veteran Jason Jones in FA and spent their #5 overall pick on Ezekiel Ansah out of BYU. Devin Taylor was added via 4th round pick. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are the only returning players.

2012- Avril/KVB/LoJack/Willie/Ronnell
2013- Ansah/Jones/Willie/Taylor/Ronnell

Value Increase- Negative. There is no way around this. Jason Jones might be able to provide the little production KVB gave us last season, but we are relying on a raw as hell project that has to learn how to play the game with Ansah. Despite not wanting to give Avril the money he wanted (turned down $10M per), we got considerably worse as of now and in the immediate future.


Wow, I vehemently disagree with this. Our DE's were arguably the worst set of starting DE's in the NFL last season. Don't forget the fact that Willie and Lo-Jack made little to no impact either. There is absolutely nowhere to go but up. We already hit rock bottom last year at the DE position.

We didn't bother to replace Avril with anyone proven. That's the biggest issue right now. Avril wasn't without his deficiencies, but he's been consistently very good at rushing the passer going back to the days before he was a starter even. Idonije ameliorates that loss somewhat, but it's doubtful he's going to improve us so much as keep us from regressing too much. We do have some more potential after drafting a couple of high-upside guys (Ansah and Taylor) and releasing KVB (past his prime) and LoJack (essentially a bust). But right now, at this very moment, we basically released our two starters and hope that a rookie and a 32 year old veteran that nobody wanted until yesterday can come in and fill their shoes (or hopefully exceed their production).

TL;DR: the ceiling has gone up, but our DEs' floor is also significantly lower at the moment.


Avril was HORRIBLE last year. Avril was a bottom 5-7 starting DE in the NFL last year IMO with KVB being arguably the absolute worst starting DE in the league. You'd have to almost purposely sabotage the team to not improve on what we got out of our DE's last year. That included KVB AND Avril. Both were abysmal.

And I 100% disagree with your thought that Avril was a good pass rusher last year. If he's rushing the passer well you can overlook his other deficiencies but the fact of the matter is he didn't even do that at an average level last year. Avril (along with KVB) was one of the worst DE's in the league last year at getting pressure on the QB. When pass rushing is your supposed "strength" and you can't even do that at an average level, you wont be missed.

I can't understate how bad Avril was last year. He wasn't average. He wasn't even below average. He was horrid. A small step above KVB who was arguably the worst in the NFL who started all season.
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DetroitPride26


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fortdetroit wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
fortdetroit wrote:
Quote:
DE- Lions saw KVB retire and Cliff Avril leave in free agency. They also lost depth in Lawrence Jackson. This is the one unit on the team that doesn't have any starters returning and also lost the first guy off the bench. They did sign Veteran Jason Jones in FA and spent their #5 overall pick on Ezekiel Ansah out of BYU. Devin Taylor was added via 4th round pick. Willie Young and Ronnell Lewis are the only returning players.

2012- Avril/KVB/LoJack/Willie/Ronnell
2013- Ansah/Jones/Willie/Taylor/Ronnell

Value Increase- Negative. There is no way around this. Jason Jones might be able to provide the little production KVB gave us last season, but we are relying on a raw as hell project that has to learn how to play the game with Ansah. Despite not wanting to give Avril the money he wanted (turned down $10M per), we got considerably worse as of now and in the immediate future.


Wow, I vehemently disagree with this. Our DE's were arguably the worst set of starting DE's in the NFL last season. Don't forget the fact that Willie and Lo-Jack made little to no impact either. There is absolutely nowhere to go but up. We already hit rock bottom last year at the DE position.

We didn't bother to replace Avril with anyone proven. That's the biggest issue right now. Avril wasn't without his deficiencies, but he's been consistently very good at rushing the passer going back to the days before he was a starter even. Idonije ameliorates that loss somewhat, but it's doubtful he's going to improve us so much as keep us from regressing too much. We do have some more potential after drafting a couple of high-upside guys (Ansah and Taylor) and releasing KVB (past his prime) and LoJack (essentially a bust). But right now, at this very moment, we basically released our two starters and hope that a rookie and a 32 year old veteran that nobody wanted until yesterday can come in and fill their shoes (or hopefully exceed their production).

TL;DR: the ceiling has gone up, but our DEs' floor is also significantly lower at the moment.


Avril was HORRIBLE last year. Avril was a bottom 5-7 starting DE in the NFL last year IMO with KVB being arguably the absolute worst starting DE in the league. You'd have to almost purposely sabotage the team to not improve on what we got out of our DE's last year. That included KVB AND Avril. Both were abysmal.

And I 100% disagree with your thought that Avril was a good pass rusher last year. If he's rushing the passer well you can overlook his other deficiencies but the fact of the matter is he didn't even do that at an average level last year. Avril (along with KVB) was one of the worst DE's in the league last year at getting pressure on the QB. When pass rushing is your supposed "strength" and you can't even do that at an average level, you wont be missed.

I can't understate how bad Avril was last year. He wasn't average. He wasn't even below average. He was horrid. A small step above KVB who was arguably the worst in the NFL who started all season.


I agree with you fortdetroit..Avril was so overrated for some reason..I think Jason Jones is an upgrade over him...I think Mosley is upgrade over Hill. Ansah could be the next best DE in the league. You couldn't ask for a better situation with his athleticism and the wide 9. KVB was complete trash and was one of the problems with after the whistle if you actually watch closely at end of each play. At least Suh will make plays and talk trash. Corey always had penalties....I think we went from ok Dline to a really really good one. And Fairley had another "great" off season to show he should of been the #1 pick. I think we will be in for a good treat this season. At least from out Dline anyways! Laughing
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