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Re-Ranking the roster: #8
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Who's our 8th best player?
Chris Clemons
25%
 25%  [ 5 ]
Brandon Mebane
20%
 20%  [ 4 ]
Kam Chancellor
20%
 20%  [ 4 ]
Bobby Wagner
25%
 25%  [ 5 ]
KJ Wright
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Cliff Avril
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Antoine Winfield
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Michael Bennett
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 20

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SoS


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
And I'll take an above average pass rusher over an above average run stuffer.


What makes him simply above average?


What makes him anything better?

EDIT: To expand, if you're going to tell me that the most consistent pass rushing force on this team is simply above average and Mebane, on his best day, is arguably not even out best run defender (alluding to Red Bryant also on his best day), I don't see why we'd call him anything but above average.

EDIT #2: And to expand on that, Alan Branch showed flashes of being very good against the run late in the season. He was being doubled more than Mebane down the stretch. I want to actually see this evidence that Mebane is the guy the offensive line focuses on. I want to see evidence that teams are running away from him. Because if I can't get that I have to work under the assumption that all 4 guys along that line have a comparative blame for us getting gashed late in the season.
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imani


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
And I'll take an above average pass rusher over an above average run stuffer.


What makes him simply above average?


What makes him anything better?

EDIT: To expand, if you're going to tell me that the most consistent pass rushing force on this team is simply above average and Mebane, on his best day, is arguably not even out best run defender (alluding to Red Bryant also on his best day), I don't see why we'd call him anything but above average.

EDIT #2: And to expand on that, Alan Branch showed flashes of being very good against the run late in the season. He was being doubled more than Mebane down the stretch. I want to actually see this evidence that Mebane is the guy the offensive line focuses on. I want to see evidence that teams are running away from him. Because if I can't get that I have to work under the assumption that all 4 guys along that line have a comparative blame for us getting gashed late in the season.


Well that would be due to the fact that Bryant is Elite on his best day. And also one-dimensional
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Tooki


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO
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imani


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tooki wrote:
Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO


I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?
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SoS


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

imani wrote:
Tooki wrote:
Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO


I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?


Are we ranking these players based off of career accomplishments now?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tooki wrote:
Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO


I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?


Are we ranking these players based off of career accomplishments now?


No, we are ranking these based on both what we have seen recently and what we think they can be next year. What we have seen recently from mebane shouldn't outweigh what we expect BASED on what we have seen over the course of his career. Especially when age and contract do not come into play in any form.

There's a clear-cut difference
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SoS


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tooki wrote:
Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO


I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?


Are we ranking these players based off of career accomplishments now?


No, we are ranking these based on both what we have seen recently and what we think they can be next year. What we have seen recently from mebane shouldn't outweigh what we expect BASED on what we have seen over the course of his career. Especially when age and contract do not come into play in any form.

There's a clear-cut difference


Yea, I get what you're saying, but it wasn't just half a season. It's been 2 years now that we haven't really seen any splash plays from Mebane. You can say it's not his responsibility, but for a guy who's apparently #8 on this team I'd expect some plays that make you say "wow, that guy is definitely a top player on this team". And lately, I haven't seen that from Mebane. He does his job well. He maintains his gap and he certainly improves the run defense. But since when is that enough to be better than guys who are clearly some of the best at their position? Clemons is among the league leaders in sacks the past 3 seasons. Bobby Wagner was up for DROY and put up an amazing amount of tackles. Antoine Winfield hasn't allowed a TD reception in 3 seasons and plays elite run defense. Michael Bennett was top 5 in the NFL last season in sack+stuff combo.

So what is Mebane doing to separate himself and force his way into the top 10 on this list?
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imani


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tooki wrote:
Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO


I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?


Are we ranking these players based off of career accomplishments now?


No, we are ranking these based on both what we have seen recently and what we think they can be next year. What we have seen recently from mebane shouldn't outweigh what we expect BASED on what we have seen over the course of his career. Especially when age and contract do not come into play in any form.

There's a clear-cut difference


Yea, I get what you're saying, but it wasn't just half a season. It's been 2 years now that we haven't really seen any splash plays from Mebane. You can say it's not his responsibility, but for a guy who's apparently #8 on this team I'd expect some plays that make you say "wow, that guy is definitely a top player on this team". And lately, I haven't seen that from Mebane. He does his job well. He maintains his gap and he certainly improves the run defense. But since when is that enough to be better than guys who are clearly some of the best at their position? Clemons is among the league leaders in sacks the past 3 seasons. Bobby Wagner was up for DROY and put up an amazing amount of tackles. Antoine Winfield hasn't allowed a TD reception in 3 seasons and plays elite run defense. Michael Bennett was top 5 in the NFL last season in sack+stuff combo.

So what is Mebane doing to separate himself and force his way into the top 10 on this list?


And Zach Miller was one of the Best Young receiving TE's in the game coming into seattle.
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SoS


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tooki wrote:
Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO


I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?


Are we ranking these players based off of career accomplishments now?


No, we are ranking these based on both what we have seen recently and what we think they can be next year. What we have seen recently from mebane shouldn't outweigh what we expect BASED on what we have seen over the course of his career. Especially when age and contract do not come into play in any form.

There's a clear-cut difference


Yea, I get what you're saying, but it wasn't just half a season. It's been 2 years now that we haven't really seen any splash plays from Mebane. You can say it's not his responsibility, but for a guy who's apparently #8 on this team I'd expect some plays that make you say "wow, that guy is definitely a top player on this team". And lately, I haven't seen that from Mebane. He does his job well. He maintains his gap and he certainly improves the run defense. But since when is that enough to be better than guys who are clearly some of the best at their position? Clemons is among the league leaders in sacks the past 3 seasons. Bobby Wagner was up for DROY and put up an amazing amount of tackles. Antoine Winfield hasn't allowed a TD reception in 3 seasons and plays elite run defense. Michael Bennett was top 5 in the NFL last season in sack+stuff combo.

So what is Mebane doing to separate himself and force his way into the top 10 on this list?


And Zach Miller was one of the Best Young receiving TE's in the game coming into seattle.


So we should base our evaluation of Winfield and Bennett from something intangible and irrelevant? What does Zach Miller have to do with how these players will perform? Should we assume Percy Harvin will regress as well?Should we automatically assume that every free agent we bring in will regress? If our free agents start performing amazing this year, should we raise our expectations for the next pool of incoming free agents?

And Zach Miller was never one of the best receiving TEs in the game. He was an elite blocking TE that was force fed the ball in a lame-duck Oakland offense that threw to the TE more often than we do. Miller hasn't lost his ability to be a receiving threat, we just haven't used him the way Oakland used him. But now I'm getting off topic.
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If I am a starting QB and my back up is Kellen Clemens..i would only have one question...."Turn up for what?"
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imani


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tooki wrote:
Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO


I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?


Are we ranking these players based off of career accomplishments now?


No, we are ranking these based on both what we have seen recently and what we think they can be next year. What we have seen recently from mebane shouldn't outweigh what we expect BASED on what we have seen over the course of his career. Especially when age and contract do not come into play in any form.

There's a clear-cut difference


Yea, I get what you're saying, but it wasn't just half a season. It's been 2 years now that we haven't really seen any splash plays from Mebane. You can say it's not his responsibility, but for a guy who's apparently #8 on this team I'd expect some plays that make you say "wow, that guy is definitely a top player on this team". And lately, I haven't seen that from Mebane. He does his job well. He maintains his gap and he certainly improves the run defense. But since when is that enough to be better than guys who are clearly some of the best at their position? Clemons is among the league leaders in sacks the past 3 seasons. Bobby Wagner was up for DROY and put up an amazing amount of tackles. Antoine Winfield hasn't allowed a TD reception in 3 seasons and plays elite run defense. Michael Bennett was top 5 in the NFL last season in sack+stuff combo.

So what is Mebane doing to separate himself and force his way into the top 10 on this list?


And Zach Miller was one of the Best Young receiving TE's in the game coming into seattle.


So we should base our evaluation of Winfield and Bennett from something intangible and irrelevant? What does Zach Miller have to do with how these players will perform? Should we assume Percy Harvin will regress as well?Should we automatically assume that every free agent we bring in will regress? If our free agents start performing amazing this year, should we raise our expectations for the next pool of incoming free agents?

And Zach Miller was never one of the best receiving TEs in the game. He was an elite blocking TE that was force fed the ball in a lame-duck Oakland offense that threw to the TE more often than we do. Miller hasn't lost his ability to be a receiving threat, we just haven't used him the way Oakland used him. But now I'm getting off topic.


Provide me tangible evidence of the last free agent that has thrived in seattle.
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SoS


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally wouldn't label Sidney Rice nor Zach Miller as failures. Breno Giacomini has been a solid starter for us. Brandon Browner was technically a free agent. Alan Branch was a better player here than he ever was in Arizona. Michael Robinson has been more than we could have hoped for.

Fact of the matter is, past signings are completely inconsequential to new signings, unless you want to convince me that John Schneider is an awful evaluator of free agent talent. How was the Saints past signings before bringing in Drew Brees?
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RawkHawkJayHawk


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="SoS"][quote="imani"][quote="SoS"][quote="imani"][quote="Tooki"]Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO[/quote]

I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?[/quote]

Are we ranking these players based off of career accomplishments now?[/quote]

No, we are ranking these based on both what we have seen recently and what we think they can be next year. What we have seen recently from mebane shouldn't outweigh what we expect BASED on what we have seen over the course of his career. Especially when age and contract do not come into play in any form.

There's a clear-cut difference[/quote]

Yea, I get what you're saying, but it wasn't just half a season. It's been 2 years now that we haven't really seen any splash plays from Mebane. You can say it's not his responsibility, but for a guy who's apparently #8 on this team I'd expect some plays that make you say "wow, that guy is definitely a top player on this team". And lately, I haven't seen that from Mebane. He does his job well. He maintains his gap and he certainly improves the run defense. But since when is that enough to be better than guys who are clearly some of the best at their position? Clemons is among the league leaders in sacks the past 3 seasons. Bobby Wagner was up for DROY and put up an amazing amount of tackles. Antoine Winfield hasn't allowed a TD reception in 3 seasons and plays elite run defense. Michael Bennett was top 5 in the NFL last season in sack+stuff combo.

So what is Mebane doing to separate himself and force his way into the top 10 on this list?[/quote]


Whatever the writer's version of articulate is to speaking, you have it here SoS. I agree 100%. It's quite amazing that we are all Hawk fans, watch the games intently and have such differing opinions on player contributions. I'm not sure how anyone can debate this unless it becomes spin or diversion. You're a smart guy.
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Ring Worm Sherm


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easily Wagner for me. I don't get why Earl is #1. He's not the best player on our roster. Got to be Sherm or Okung IMO. Wilson should be top 4.
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Ring Worm Sherm


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think big red playing hurt late in the season really affected other guys along the d line. He really makes everything work along the line when he's on. I expect Mebane to have a bounce back year and maybe his best year yet playing with Bennett, red healthy again, McDaniel, and with the depth of Hill and Williams. The outside rush of Avril Clemons and Irvin should help the interior as well.
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Plush


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RawkHawkJayHawk wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tooki wrote:
Mebane is closer to Very Good than Above Average IMO


I just want to know why the latter is considered to be true. Even if he was bad during a portion of last season (very arguable), doesn't mean that over the course of his career that has been the case. What have you done for me lately?


Are we ranking these players based off of career accomplishments now?


No, we are ranking these based on both what we have seen recently and what we think they can be next year. What we have seen recently from mebane shouldn't outweigh what we expect BASED on what we have seen over the course of his career. Especially when age and contract do not come into play in any form.

There's a clear-cut difference


Yea, I get what you're saying, but it wasn't just half a season. It's been 2 years now that we haven't really seen any splash plays from Mebane. You can say it's not his responsibility, but for a guy who's apparently #8 on this team I'd expect some plays that make you say "wow, that guy is definitely a top player on this team". And lately, I haven't seen that from Mebane. He does his job well. He maintains his gap and he certainly improves the run defense. But since when is that enough to be better than guys who are clearly some of the best at their position? Clemons is among the league leaders in sacks the past 3 seasons. Bobby Wagner was up for DROY and put up an amazing amount of tackles. Antoine Winfield hasn't allowed a TD reception in 3 seasons and plays elite run defense. Michael Bennett was top 5 in the NFL last season in sack+stuff combo.

So what is Mebane doing to separate himself and force his way into the top 10 on this list?



Whatever the writer's version of articulate is to speaking, you have it here SoS. I agree 100%. It's quite amazing that we are all Hawk fans, watch the games intently and have such differing opinions on player contributions. I'm not sure how anyone can debate this unless it becomes spin or diversion. You're a smart guy.


Being articulate doesn't make you correct. I think SOS makes a good point here, but I don't think he's 100%. Hasn't provided much more evidence than he's asked for either.

While I think there's no sound reason for mebane to be considered much more than above average overall, I haven't seen a solid argument on why the run defense collapse was his doing either.
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