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Packers to part ways with LB Desmond Bishop
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MNPackfan32


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pugger wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
err... Sharper played on a winning Super Bowl team. was he a "trash player," as you cited earlier? that's my point. your hyperbole in calling GB players trash once they leave the team is based only on bias.

are you saying a player is "trash" only if they don't win a Super Bowl? or only if they don't win one with GB?

either way, you boxed yourself in to a corner by calling these players "trash" when they continued to have strong years post-GB. (Longwell, i believe, led the NFL in FG accuracy after leaving, for example.) a bigger man would admit his mistake and poor choice of wording, but i won't hold my cyber breath.
So was Sharper the same player he was after he left Green Bay? How about Favre? Was he as good as those MVP years? They just weren't the same old players.

Want me to go farther? Tramon Williams, that dude is a shell of his former self, the guy is washed up, trash. You can see this stuff coming. Tramon is in the same boat as Bishop, had a great 2010, injuries derailed him and now he is on the verge of not having a job. He shows bits and clips of his old self ever once in a blue moon but he ain't the same guy. And no matter how much any GB fan wants to defend him, he is exactly what I said, a shell of what he was. Maybe his shoulder will get back, but I doubt it. In a year we will probably be talking about him as more of our cast off trash.


I'm not ready to throw Williams out with the bath water. His shoulder was still messed up last year. From everything being reported he is healthy now. If he is still playing lousy this season then his days in GB are numbered.
Shocked Reports are he looks good? Man, I was totally expecting reports to say he looks like twice warmed over dog crap.... They do this with every player. Everyone looks like a stud. Off season reports are worth nothing. Hell, the last 2 seasons DJ Williams was billed as the next Shannon Sharpe and look at him now....
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Nzd07


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
err... Sharper played on a winning Super Bowl team. was he a "trash player," as you cited earlier? that's my point. your hyperbole in calling GB players trash once they leave the team is based only on bias.

are you saying a player is "trash" only if they don't win a Super Bowl? or only if they don't win one with GB?

either way, you boxed yourself in to a corner by calling these players "trash" when they continued to have strong years post-GB. (Longwell, i believe, led the NFL in FG accuracy after leaving, for example.) a bigger man would admit his mistake and poor choice of wording, but i won't hold my cyber breath.
So was Sharper the same player he was after he left Green Bay? How about Favre? Was he as good as those MVP years? They just weren't the same old players.

Want me to go farther? Tramon Williams, that dude is a shell of his former self, the guy is washed up, trash. You can see this stuff coming. Tramon is in the same boat as Bishop, had a great 2010, injuries derailed him and now he is on the verge of not having a job. He shows bits and clips of his old self ever once in a blue moon but he ain't the same guy. And no matter how much any GB fan wants to defend him, he is exactly what I said, a shell of what he was. Maybe his shoulder will get back, but I doubt it. In a year we will probably be talking about him as more of our cast off trash.


But is trash really a good choice of words here? Of course a player will wont be as effective as they were in their prime, players do age and become less effective. This is always the case. However, you cant call Sharper trash after the pro bowl years he had in MN and NO. In addition to Longwell being a stud kicker from 2006 until 2011. And Favre's 2009 season. A trash player to me implies that a player was let go and did nothing after they left Gb, which clearly is not the case here.


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MNPackfan32


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
err... Sharper played on a winning Super Bowl team. was he a "trash player," as you cited earlier? that's my point. your hyperbole in calling GB players trash once they leave the team is based only on bias.

are you saying a player is "trash" only if they don't win a Super Bowl? or only if they don't win one with GB?

either way, you boxed yourself in to a corner by calling these players "trash" when they continued to have strong years post-GB. (Longwell, i believe, led the NFL in FG accuracy after leaving, for example.) a bigger man would admit his mistake and poor choice of wording, but i won't hold my cyber breath.
So was Sharper the same player he was after he left Green Bay? How about Favre? Was he as good as those MVP years? They just weren't the same old players.

Want me to go farther? Tramon Williams, that dude is a shell of his former self, the guy is washed up, trash. You can see this stuff coming. Tramon is in the same boat as Bishop, had a great 2010, injuries derailed him and now he is on the verge of not having a job. He shows bits and clips of his old self ever once in a blue moon but he ain't the same guy. And no matter how much any GB fan wants to defend him, he is exactly what I said, a shell of what he was. Maybe his shoulder will get back, but I doubt it. In a year we will probably be talking about him as more of our cast off trash.


But is trash really a good choice of words here? Of course a player will wont be as effective as they were in their prime, players do age and become less effective. This is always the case. However, you cant call Sharper trash after the pro bowl years he had in MN and NO. In addition to Longwell being a stud kicker from 2006 until 2011. And Favre's 2009 season. A trash player to me implies that a player was let go and did nothing after they left Gb, which clearly is not the case here.
Well they are the players that have declined and become less effective and more expensive. So we discard them, like trash. I am not saying they are CFL quality players, they are simply the Packers scraps, throw always, or trash. We don't let prime, franchise players walk. So we don't let useful franchise cornerstones go.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNPackfan32 wrote:
Well they are the players that have declined and become less effective and more expensive. So we discard them, like trash. I am not saying they are CFL quality players, they are simply the Packers scraps, throw always, or trash. We don't let prime, franchise players walk. So we don't let useful franchise cornerstones go.


Isnt this the case with every team? You draft franchise players, in most every case, with very few exceptions. No one confused Longwell, Sharper, Favre and Bishop as "franchise cornerstones". That isnt the point of bringing a free agent like them in. Usually you bring those types of free agents to serve as stop gaps until you draft a franchise cornerstone, as you put it.

Nick Collins didnt really break out until 2008. The Packers probably would have been better if they had Sharper from 2005 to 2007, hell maybe they would have won a super bowl if they had a Safety making big plays as he was. Sharper had some real good seasons for MN, until they began running more strict Tampa 2, which wasnt a fit for Sharper. Sharper clearly was playing at an all pro level for the Vikings while Collins was still an underwhelming player.

Obviously the Packers didnt need Favre since they had Rodgers, but Favre still presented significant value for other teams and almost helped the Vikings reach the super bowl. If the team had a bit more talent built through the draft, they very well could have won the super bowl that season.

You cant fault these free agent signings as the reason why the Vikes didnt win a super bowl, i guess that is my point. Poor drafting over the years and poor coaching are the primary contributors to this. The Vikes have spent less in free agency since 2011 and have significantly built through the draft during this time. Bishop and Henderson are likely nothing more then stop gaps until Gerald Hodges and whatever rookie is drafted in 2014 are ready to go.

Id still prefer to go with Henderson at MLB and roll with the rookie Hodges at WLB, but bringing in the vet Bishop to compete for the MLB job is completely logical given the uncertainty at this point. Assuming his health clears and the numbers arent bad.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ugLymayNe wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:
By no means will Bishop push us over the top, but he would be a nice stopgap player who be another piece to the puzzle for us



This is where I'm confused. What do you think you'll actually get out of a LB that can't play sideline to sideline or can be trusted in coverage vs TEs/athletic RBs?


My point is: If he isn't good enough to start at ILB for the Packers, he is a below average player considering we are VERY average at that position(very average putting it nicely).


Is that it? He's just not "good enough" for you guys?

I feel its more than one reason that the Packers let Bishop go. Maybe they didn't trust he could stay healthy, maybe they saw an early decline in him, or it could have been a money issue. Perhaps all three.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that he's done, or won't be effective. Bishop likely won't be as fast as he was when he was 21 years old entering the league, but I still believe he'd make out to be a fine player for any team that would give him a chance.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we kindly refrain from singling out individual members and talking down to them when we don't agree with their opinions, please?

And while we're on the subject, how about we dial back the passive aggressiveness (this goes to EVERYBODY, those guilty of doing so and a healthy reminder to those that have thus far followed the rules), mkay?


As to the topic at hand, I think it's preposterous to suggest that the quality of a veteran signing for a team should only be judged on whether or not they get said team to a Super Bowl. That theory seems to complete ignore the fact that even if these signing contribute to getting the teams to winning records and playoff berths they've done a good portion of their job for the front offices that signed them... you know, the same front offices that are trying to keep THEIR JOBS year to year in this "what have you done for me lately" league.

I'd also say that while there's some truth to the guys that Thompson allows to move on after their time in Green Bay not reaching quite the heights they did in Green Bay, it's far from Gospel truth or law. Darren Sharper set a league record for INT return yards and was selected as a first team All-Pro four seasons removed from his time in Green Bay. In the 7 games Scott Wells did play for the Rams last season he was more than solid - and there's no way in hell you're going to make a quality argument that Jeff Saturday was a better performer at center last season than Wells would have been in that position for the Pack's OL. Cullen Jenkins notched 5.5 sacks, 24 hurries, and 7 TFL's in what was effectively rotational duty in Philadelphia... Mike Neal and Jerel Worthy haven't even combined for that in the 2 seasons since Jenkins' departure.

Look, I get being a passionate fan, and I get getting into tiffs with division rivals (you should see MrDrew and his debates with Broncos fans), but the ego wars are getting a bit ridiculous around here. C'mon guys, no one's gaining any brownie points for being the "cool guy that can throw insults".
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MNPackfan32


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
Well they are the players that have declined and become less effective and more expensive. So we discard them, like trash. I am not saying they are CFL quality players, they are simply the Packers scraps, throw always, or trash. We don't let prime, franchise players walk. So we don't let useful franchise cornerstones go.


Isnt this the case with every team? You draft franchise players, in most every case, with very few exceptions. No one confused Longwell, Sharper, Favre and Bishop as "franchise cornerstones". That isnt the point of bringing a free agent like them in. Usually you bring those types of free agents to serve as stop gaps until you draft a franchise cornerstone, as you put it.

Nick Collins didnt really break out until 2008. The Packers probably would have been better if they had Sharper from 2005 to 2007, hell maybe they would have won a super bowl if they had a Safety making big plays as he was. Sharper had some real good seasons for MN, until they began running more strict Tampa 2, which wasnt a fit for Sharper. Sharper clearly was playing at an all pro level for the Vikings while Collins was still an underwhelming player.

Obviously the Packers didnt need Favre since they had Rodgers, but Favre still presented significant value for other teams and almost helped the Vikings reach the super bowl. If the team had a bit more talent built through the draft, they very well could have won the super bowl that season.

You cant fault these free agent signings as the reason why the Vikes didnt win a super bowl, i guess that is my point. Poor drafting over the years and poor coaching are the primary contributors to this. The Vikes have spent less in free agency since 2011 and have significantly built through the draft during this time. Bishop and Henderson are likely nothing more then stop gaps until Gerald Hodges and whatever rookie is drafted in 2014 are ready to go.

Id still prefer to go with Henderson at MLB and roll with the rookie Hodges at WLB, but bringing in the vet Bishop to compete for the MLB job is completely logical given the uncertainty at this point. Assuming his health clears and the numbers arent bad.
I disagree with you about Collins though. Maybe 05 and 06 were learning curves for him, but a small school kid like him, needed every rep he could get. Sharper would have really only slowed that pace down. If not for 1 fluke play we are probably talking about the best FS in the NFL today, that was, IMO, the right call, younger, faster, cheaper and just plain better. Ted trusted himself and he was right.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Vikings also proved correct in its decision that sharper and longwell could still be strong contributors on playoff caliber teams. Sharper also left the Vikings to join the saints and had a career year. To say these guys weren't contributors or were washed up is a misconception. Further, I think Collins could have benefited playing alongside sharper. The packers had some lousy defenses I can't help but wonder if his playmaking ability would have made the packers better. Of course Thompson made a good decision but so did the Vikings and saints. If bishop proves to be a good starter, the Vikings again should get credit for signing another packer player that was a strong contributor. The only recent ex packer that was brought in that could have been defined as trash and amounted to nothing post gb was Robert ferguson
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A report from Mike Garafolo of USA Today indicates that free agent linebacker Desmond Bishop won’t be a free agent much longer.

Bishop was released by the Packers on Monday and visited with the Vikings on Wednesday before moving on to a Thursday meeting with the Chiefs. Garafolo reports that Bishop is likely to make a choice between the Super Bowl IV opponents after his meeting with Kansas City despite some reported interest from the Jaguars.

Garafolo’s report suggests the Vikings are interested in bringing Bishop aboard after his workout, which presumably means they were satisfied that he’s recovered from the hamstring injury that ruined his 2012 season. Vikings defensive coordinator Alan Williams didn’t say anything in either direction after Bishop’s workout, saying only that the choice about signing him belongs to those higher up the food chain.

Williams: “Good workout. We’ll see. We’re doing our due diligence in terms of bringing guys in that are free agents. The neat thing is, I don’t have to make those decisions. I just have to coach them once they get here. Coach Leslie Frazier and Rick Spielman, they’re the ones that make those hard decisions.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/20/report-bishop-likely-to-select-team-after-meeting-chiefs/
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure Longwell got tired of trying to kick half of his games outside in chilly Lambeau. Wink

I still wonder how that injury may have affected Bishop going forward. A lot of us were hoping he'd return because we liked his toughness and attitude on defense and felt that kind of edge was missing last season. The only thing I can think of is he was never a speed demon and that injury may have robbed him of any speed he had left. Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
A report from Mike Garafolo of USA Today indicates that free agent linebacker Desmond Bishop won’t be a free agent much longer.

Bishop was released by the Packers on Monday and visited with the Vikings on Wednesday before moving on to a Thursday meeting with the Chiefs. Garafolo reports that Bishop is likely to make a choice between the Super Bowl IV opponents after his meeting with Kansas City despite some reported interest from the Jaguars.

Garafolo’s report suggests the Vikings are interested in bringing Bishop aboard after his workout, which presumably means they were satisfied that he’s recovered from the hamstring injury that ruined his 2012 season. Vikings defensive coordinator Alan Williams didn’t say anything in either direction after Bishop’s workout, saying only that the choice about signing him belongs to those higher up the food chain.

Williams: “Good workout. We’ll see. We’re doing our due diligence in terms of bringing guys in that are free agents. The neat thing is, I don’t have to make those decisions. I just have to coach them once they get here. Coach Leslie Frazier and Rick Spielman, they’re the ones that make those hard decisions.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/20/report-bishop-likely-to-select-team-after-meeting-chiefs/


Good news. IIRC, he was flying in to Kansas City yesterday and was going to meet with team officials today. I hope he doesn't leave without a contract. We could really use his presence next to Derrick Johnson. As I mentioned before, I don't like the idea of Akeem Jordan starting inside - I would much prefer Jordan being used in 3rd and long situations to help in pass coverage. I am still not sure where Zac Diles fits in.
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ugLymayNe


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelKing728 wrote:
ugLymayNe wrote:
SteelKing728 wrote:
By no means will Bishop push us over the top, but he would be a nice stopgap player who be another piece to the puzzle for us



This is where I'm confused. What do you think you'll actually get out of a LB that can't play sideline to sideline or can be trusted in coverage vs TEs/athletic RBs?


My point is: If he isn't good enough to start at ILB for the Packers, he is a below average player considering we are VERY average at that position(very average putting it nicely).


Is that it? He's just not "good enough" for you guys?

I feel its more than one reason that the Packers let Bishop go. Maybe they didn't trust he could stay healthy, maybe they saw an early decline in him, or it could have been a money issue. Perhaps all three.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that he's done, or won't be effective. Bishop likely won't be as fast as he was when he was 21 years old entering the league, but I still believe he'd make out to be a fine player for any team that would give him a chance.


What I was saying was if he isn't good enough to start on a Packers defense(which is clear because they straight up cut him), which Viking fans bash regularly, then you can't really turn around and say he would be a good addition just because it is your team involved. A month ago I was seeing Viking fans saying "The Packer's defense isn't going to improve, Bishop coming back doesn't matter blah blah blah".............now you see them calling him a fine player. Typical FF can't make up their mind. I think signing Bishop would be more like signing Robert Ferguson rather than Darren Sharper for the Vikings.


Anyways, I think the Packers cutting him has to do with his already glaring weakness of not being able to play sideline to sideline/track plays down from behind and the injury concern. They say he is 100% but what is 100% after that injury? Instead of running with 4.8 speed he might be at 5 or 5.1 now, get what I'm saying?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
A report from Mike Garafolo of USA Today indicates that free agent linebacker Desmond Bishop won’t be a free agent much longer.

Bishop was released by the Packers on Monday and visited with the Vikings on Wednesday before moving on to a Thursday meeting with the Chiefs. Garafolo reports that Bishop is likely to make a choice between the Super Bowl IV opponents after his meeting with Kansas City despite some reported interest from the Jaguars.

Garafolo’s report suggests the Vikings are interested in bringing Bishop aboard after his workout, which presumably means they were satisfied that he’s recovered from the hamstring injury that ruined his 2012 season. Vikings defensive coordinator Alan Williams didn’t say anything in either direction after Bishop’s workout, saying only that the choice about signing him belongs to those higher up the food chain.

Williams: “Good workout. We’ll see. We’re doing our due diligence in terms of bringing guys in that are free agents. The neat thing is, I don’t have to make those decisions. I just have to coach them once they get here. Coach Leslie Frazier and Rick Spielman, they’re the ones that make those hard decisions.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/20/report-bishop-likely-to-select-team-after-meeting-chiefs/


Good news. IIRC, he was flying in to Kansas City yesterday and was going to meet with team officials today. I hope he doesn't leave without a contract. We could really use his presence next to Derrick Johnson. As I mentioned before, I don't like the idea of Akeem Jordan starting inside - I would much prefer Jordan being used in 3rd and long situations to help in pass coverage. I am still not sure where Zac Diles fits in.

that would help to fill one of the biggest week spots on the chiefs roster
that d looks good already
a lb core of hali bishop johnson houston looks damn good too
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
The Vikings also proved correct in its decision that sharper and longwell could still be strong contributors on playoff caliber teams. Sharper also left the Vikings to join the saints and had a career year. To say these guys weren't contributors or were washed up is a misconception. Further, I think Collins could have benefited playing alongside sharper. The packers had some lousy defenses I can't help but wonder if his playmaking ability would have made the packers better. Of course Thompson made a good decision but so did the Vikings and saints. If bishop proves to be a good starter, the Vikings again should get credit for signing another packer player that was a strong contributor. The only recent ex packer that was brought in that could have been defined as trash and amounted to nothing post gb was Robert ferguson


There is a bit of a difference there. Longwell left as a FA. Sharper was part of the inital roster purges that had little to do with talent and everything to do with the Packers being in salary cap hell following Mike Sherman's horrible track record as GM. Wahle, Rivera, Sharper, Longwell, all cut or let walk in FA because the Packers couldn't afford to do otherwise.

That isn't the case now. It hasn't been the case since that first year. While Bishop's contract may be a factor, it's not the ONLY factor, and I would wager it probably isn't even the deciding one.
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MNPackfan32


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
In the 7 games Scott Wells did play for the Rams last season he was more than solid - and there's no way in hell you're going to make a quality argument that Jeff Saturday was a better performer at center last season than Wells would have been in that position for the Pack's OL. Cullen Jenkins notched 5.5 sacks, 24 hurries, and 7 TFL's in what was effectively rotational duty in Philadelphia... Mike Neal and Jerel Worthy haven't even combined for that in the 2 seasons since Jenkins' departure.
So last year Neal himself had 4.5 sacks, Worthy had 2.5 and Jenkins had 4. Worthy is already better vs the run than Cullen was in his time in Green Bay. Then you figure in that Neal and Worthy are probably cheaper than Jenkins was, and Jenkins has left to join another team at the tail end of his career while we have stockpiled talent at RDE with Neal, Worthy and Jones.

The Jeff Saturday signing was a failure, IMO but according to you and everybody else it should be a great signing because we made the playoffs and we didn't have to rush EDS into the starting line up. To me it was a failure because he didn't help us get to the ultimate goal and he probably just slowed the learning curve of EDS.
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