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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtmmike wrote:
Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
bulldog wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
DawgX wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
well first of all excellent post bulldog.
2 looks really good for sheard standing up how many of those sacks came after haden came back?
3 this line is going to get run on.
4 chemistry with a new team amd so many new players nobody will be playing with instinct.


Why do you say that?

horton defense after 3 years of drafting for it was 28th against the run.


Hortn only spent 2 years in Zona. And in those tw yers, the drafts looked like this for defense

2011
Patrick peterson rnd 1
Sam acho rnd 4
Quan sturdivant rnd 6
David carter rnd 6

2012
Jemell flemming rnd 3
Justin bethal rnd 6

They had a total of 15 picks those two years, only 6 on defense, and only twice picked one highr than round 3. They also traded a second for Kolb. So you could say 16 picks.

Id call that NOT drafting for defense

thank you bulldog my bad
arizona cardinals draft 3 years ago
dan williams and two linebackers this brings 9 draft picks to hortons 28 ranked run defense .


you forgot to mention that hortons defense was 12th in yards and 17th in points allowed also was 5th in passing yards allowed and 10th in passing TDs allowed they were 2nd in INTS 22nd in rushing yards per carry and 16th in rushing TDs allowed despite being ranked 31st in rushing attempts while the offense was 31st or 32nd in almost every major category

1 how many players from that team are playing for us next year
B it is foolish to make predictions based on completely different players
* make predictions based on the players that will actually play

here are some random punctuation marks .?,..,? thanks for the post

the point on this topic is what team ever one the afc north with a 28 ranked run defense.


no thats not even close the point was not about oneing the afc north with the players from the 2012 cardinals defense.

read walterfootballs prediction for hortons defense


no thanks I dont like to read trash why don't you read something that has good analysis and a good reputation

you can recognize that cant you

lets just agree to disagree you are very smart and i have totally enjoyed this.
lets be friends whoever is right this defense has huge questions though


Yes, this defense does have many questions. We certainly agree on that.
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MalcolmBrown


Joined: 26 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
bulldog wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
DawgX wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
well first of all excellent post bulldog.
2 looks really good for sheard standing up how many of those sacks came after haden came back?
3 this line is going to get run on.
4 chemistry with a new team amd so many new players nobody will be playing with instinct.


Why do you say that?

horton defense after 3 years of drafting for it was 28th against the run.


Hortn only spent 2 years in Zona. And in those tw yers, the drafts looked like this for defense

2011
Patrick peterson rnd 1
Sam acho rnd 4
Quan sturdivant rnd 6
David carter rnd 6

2012
Jemell flemming rnd 3
Justin bethal rnd 6

They had a total of 15 picks those two years, only 6 on defense, and only twice picked one highr than round 3. They also traded a second for Kolb. So you could say 16 picks.

Id call that NOT drafting for defense

thank you bulldog my bad
arizona cardinals draft 3 years ago
dan williams and two linebackers this brings 9 draft picks to hortons 28 ranked run defense .


you forgot to mention that hortons defense was 12th in yards and 17th in points allowed also was 5th in passing yards allowed and 10th in passing TDs allowed they were 2nd in INTS 22nd in rushing yards per carry and 16th in rushing TDs allowed despite being ranked 31st in rushing attempts while the offense was 31st or 32nd in almost every major category

1 how many players from that team are playing for us next year
B it is foolish to make predictions based on completely different players
* make predictions based on the players that will actually play

here are some random punctuation marks .?,..,? thanks for the post

the point on this topic is what team ever one the afc north with a 28 ranked run defense.


no thats not even close the point was not about oneing the afc north with the players from the 2012 cardinals defense.

read walterfootballs prediction for hortons defense


no thanks I dont like to read trash why don't you read something that has good analysis and a good reputation

you can recognize that cant you


I just tried to read it, and it is garbage. Just more of the same, biased, outside opinion, with no insight, just mostly bashing the Browns, go figure.
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mtmmike


Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 647
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalcolmBrown wrote:
Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
Entropy wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
bulldog wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
DawgX wrote:
mtmmike wrote:
well first of all excellent post bulldog.
2 looks really good for sheard standing up how many of those sacks came after haden came back?
3 this line is going to get run on.
4 chemistry with a new team amd so many new players nobody will be playing with instinct.


Why do you say that?

horton defense after 3 years of drafting for it was 28th against the run.


Hortn only spent 2 years in Zona. And in those tw yers, the drafts looked like this for defense

2011
Patrick peterson rnd 1
Sam acho rnd 4
Quan sturdivant rnd 6
David carter rnd 6

2012
Jemell flemming rnd 3
Justin bethal rnd 6

They had a total of 15 picks those two years, only 6 on defense, and only twice picked one highr than round 3. They also traded a second for Kolb. So you could say 16 picks.

Id call that NOT drafting for defense

thank you bulldog my bad
arizona cardinals draft 3 years ago
dan williams and two linebackers this brings 9 draft picks to hortons 28 ranked run defense .


you forgot to mention that hortons defense was 12th in yards and 17th in points allowed also was 5th in passing yards allowed and 10th in passing TDs allowed they were 2nd in INTS 22nd in rushing yards per carry and 16th in rushing TDs allowed despite being ranked 31st in rushing attempts while the offense was 31st or 32nd in almost every major category

1 how many players from that team are playing for us next year
B it is foolish to make predictions based on completely different players
* make predictions based on the players that will actually play

here are some random punctuation marks .?,..,? thanks for the post

the point on this topic is what team ever one the afc north with a 28 ranked run defense.


no thats not even close the point was not about oneing the afc north with the players from the 2012 cardinals defense.

read walterfootballs prediction for hortons defense


no thanks I dont like to read trash why don't you read something that has good analysis and a good reputation

you can recognize that cant you


I just tried to read it, and it is garbage. Just more of the same, biased, outside opinion, with no insight, just mostly bashing the Browns, go figure.

malcolm this is a friendly question but what happened in the 10 game losing streak? how come his attacking defense with 9 picks got beaten 10 games in a row?
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bulldog


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.
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mtmmike


Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.

excellent report bulldog I believe jauron defense held opponent to under 26 points in 10 games.
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bulldog


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtmmike wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.

excellent report bulldog I believe jauron defense held opponent to under 26 points in 10 games.


Browns defense ranked 19th fpr the season with 23 points a game allowed

Cardinala ranked 17th with 22.3 points
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtmmike wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.

excellent report bulldog I believe jauron defense held opponent to under 26 points in 10 games.


The Steelers defense held their opponent under 26 points for 11 games.

Hmm, that's probably a really misleading way to look at the defense, huh?
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bulldog wrote:
Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.


Yea, that's where I was about to go next. Every team plays on both sides of the ball. If you're offense cant get it going (Kolb, Skelton, Lindley, Hoyer) then your defense will spend lots of time on the field, get tired, and give up lots of points. That's pretty basic.

Kolb, who was the best of their quadruple headed monster in AZ, got sacked 27 times in 6 games.

Not to mention they only had 1 rusher over 350 yards on the season.

The Browns as well have had a tough time generating offense, but mtmmike may just want to blame the defense for all 11 losses?
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalcolmBrown wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.


Yea, that's where I was about to go next. Every team plays on both sides of the ball. If you're offense cant get it going (Kolb, Skelton, Lindley, Hoyer) then your defense will spend lots of time on the field, get tired, and give up lots of points. That's pretty basic.

Kolb, who was the best of their quadruple headed monster in AZ, got sacked 27 times in 6 games.

Not to mention they only had 1 rusher over 350 yards on the season.

The Browns as well have had a tough time generating offense, but mtmmike may just want to blame the defense for all 11 losses?


But howz come the attacking defense that was 2nd in INTs, 11th in QB sacks, 17th in points allowed, 12th in yards allowed and allowed the lowest QB rating in football last year (71.2) didn't make their team score more points on offense?

I mean, it's not ridiculous to say the defense lost those 10 games right?
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.


Yea, that's where I was about to go next. Every team plays on both sides of the ball. If you're offense cant get it going (Kolb, Skelton, Lindley, Hoyer) then your defense will spend lots of time on the field, get tired, and give up lots of points. That's pretty basic.

Kolb, who was the best of their quadruple headed monster in AZ, got sacked 27 times in 6 games.

Not to mention they only had 1 rusher over 350 yards on the season.

The Browns as well have had a tough time generating offense, but mtmmike may just want to blame the defense for all 11 losses?


But howz come the attacking defense that was 2nd in INTs, 11th in QB sacks, 17th in points allowed, 12th in yards allowed and allowed the lowest QB rating in football last year (71.2) didn't make their team score more points on offense?

I mean, it's not ridiculous to say the defense lost those 10 games right?


Inorite?
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mtmmike


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.


Yea, that's where I was about to go next. Every team plays on both sides of the ball. If you're offense cant get it going (Kolb, Skelton, Lindley, Hoyer) then your defense will spend lots of time on the field, get tired, and give up lots of points. That's pretty basic.

Kolb, who was the best of their quadruple headed monster in AZ, got sacked 27 times in 6 games.

Not to mention they only had 1 rusher over 350 yards on the season.

The Browns as well have had a tough time generating offense, but mtmmike may just want to blame the defense for all 11 losses?


But howz come the attacking defense that was 2nd in INTs, 11th in QB sacks, 17th in points allowed, 12th in yards allowed and allowed the lowest QB rating in football last year (71.2) didn't make their team score more points on offense?

I mean, it's not ridiculous to say the defense lost those 10 games right?

excellent points part of the reason his defense was so good was teams getting the lead than running straight at hortons defense than he couldnt stop them I only saw 4 games last year with arizona and this was the pattern to beat arizona.
question just how good due you say this defense will be 10TH?
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtmmike wrote:
Entropy wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
bulldog wrote:
Th cardinals had a nine game losing streak n the middle of the season. During that span, their defense allowed 25.6 points/game. That would ranks 25th in the league for 2012. Including ther 58 point stomping by SEA. They held their opponets under that 25 point mark in 6 of those 9 contests.

However, their offense managed only 10.5 points/game. Last in the league. On FOUR occasons, they didn't scor more than 6 points. And didn't score ovr 20 points a single time.


Yea, that's where I was about to go next. Every team plays on both sides of the ball. If you're offense cant get it going (Kolb, Skelton, Lindley, Hoyer) then your defense will spend lots of time on the field, get tired, and give up lots of points. That's pretty basic.

Kolb, who was the best of their quadruple headed monster in AZ, got sacked 27 times in 6 games.

Not to mention they only had 1 rusher over 350 yards on the season.

The Browns as well have had a tough time generating offense, but mtmmike may just want to blame the defense for all 11 losses?


But howz come the attacking defense that was 2nd in INTs, 11th in QB sacks, 17th in points allowed, 12th in yards allowed and allowed the lowest QB rating in football last year (71.2) didn't make their team score more points on offense?

I mean, it's not ridiculous to say the defense lost those 10 games right?

excellent points part of the reason his defense was so good was teams getting the lead than running straight at hortons defense than he couldnt stop them I only saw 4 games last year with arizona and this was the pattern to beat arizona.
question just how good due you say this defense will be 10TH?


Half Time Scores last season for the Cards:

Arizona Up 10-3 Vs Seattle (Wins 20-16 )
Arizona AS 6-6 @ New England (Wins 20-18 )
Arizona Up 24-0 Vs Philadelphia (Wins 27-6 )
Arizona Dn 0-13 Vs Miami (Wins 24-21 )
Arizona Dn 3-10 @ St. Louis (Loss 3-17 )
Arizona Up 10-9 Vs Buffalo (Loss 16-19 )

They Lose Kevin Kolb, then...

Arizona Dn 7-14 @ Minnesota (Loss 14-21 )
Arizona Dn 0-17 Vs San Fran (Loss 3-24 )
Arizona Dn 7-21 @ Green Bay (Loss 17-31 )
Arizona AS 16-16 @ Atlanta (Loss 19-23 )
Arizona Up 17-14 Vs St. Louis (Loss 17-31 )
Arizona Up 3-0 @ NY Jets (Loss 6-7 )
Arizona Dn 0-38 @ Seattle (Loss 0-58 )
Arizona Up 21-7 Vs Detroit (Win 38-10 )
Arizona Dn 6-21 Vs Chicago (Loss 13-28 )
Arizona Dn 6-7 @ San Fran (Loss 13-27 )


So I don't see the pattern you're talking about, for one thing.

After Kolb goes down for the rest of the season, they were down 2 scores or more 4 times, and in those 4 games generated a TOTAL of 20 pts in the second half.

None except the Seattle game were the leads insurmountable.

Scored 1 field goal against San Francisco in the second half Week 8.

Green Bay doesn't run the ball well, they throw with Aaron Rodgers, and he's no slouch. You're not going to beat the Packers with only 17 pts.

SCORED 0 PTS AGAINST SEATTLE WEEK 14. 8 TURNOVERS. Offense generates 154 Net Yds. Skelton throws 4 picks, one returned for a touchdown. AZ also fumbled for a touchdown in the end zone. Seattle never had to pass in this game. Russell Wilson stats: 7/13 148 Yds 1TD 1 Int.

Only gave up one touchdown in the second half to Chicago, but only scored one touchdown.

Contrast with:


*Kolb:

Down 0-13 Vs Miami. Offense Scores 21 pts in the second half to force OT.


*Without Kolb:

Up 3-0 against the JETS, they scored only 3 pts in the second half, and lost by 1 (6-7).

All Square against Atlanta at half time, offense only scores 3 pts in the second half, defense gives up 1 TD in the second half.
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Last edited by MalcolmBrown on Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, teams will run all over your defense if they get the lead and your offense cannot score points, that's basic strategy in football.
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mtmmike


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalcolmBrown wrote:
Yes, teams will run all over your defense if they get the lead and your offense cannot score points, that's basic strategy in football.

hey malcolm i really enjoy your points of view.
against sf and seattle that defense of horton gave and average of 140t yards running per game with average to above average running backs.

I am just flat out worried because i have a simple philosophy stop the run get after the passer.
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtmmike wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
Yes, teams will run all over your defense if they get the lead and your offense cannot score points, that's basic strategy in football.

hey malcolm i really enjoy your points of view.
against sf and seattle that defense of horton gave and average of 140t yards running per game with average to above average running backs.

I am just flat out worried because i have a simple philosophy stop the run get after the passer.



I just don't see that 9 game losing streak falling all to Horton's defense. The cardinals were 32nd in rushing yards per game, and 28th in passing yards per game.

Yes the defense was ranked 28th in rushing yards allowed per game, so I could see you saying something about the possibility of the defense overrunning plays in the backfield, or over-pursuit on certain plays, but i don't believe the Cards had the personnel to stop the run, when it was time to stop the run. Which of course brings into question whether we have the personnel, and whether the switch to the 3-4 with our personnel will benefit us.

I think we have better run stuffers, the only problem is, how fresh will they be during games. Will the offense give them time to rest, and also put points on the board, so we can be more versatile on defense. Inevitably those big guys that can run, are going to wear down thru the course of the game, if they keep having to go back on the field after only 1:43 TOP.
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