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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:

Use your imagination. Several theories have been posited; Urban Meyer, Bob Kraft, his history with the Jets, McDaniels... and just because final say rests with Belichick, doesn't mean he wouldn't do something at the recommendation of someone else, or for a reason other than a strict desire to improve the team. I don't get why you're struggling with this concept. You've really never done something you didn't want to do at the solicitation of another?


Again all those theories rely on Belichick just brainlessly going along with what someone else says. You really think the most cerebral coach in the NFL would willingly bring some worthless hack into his OTA just because someone begged him too? It's a weak argument on your part that you can't support with any evidence. You'd rather take a weak stance then admit that Tebow brings any sort of value to your team. Laughing
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Again all those theories rely on Belichick just brainlessly going along with what someone else says. You really think the most cerebral coach in the NFL would willingly bring some worthless hack into his OTA just because someone begged him too? It's a weak argument on your part that you can't support with any evidence. You'd rather take a weak stance then admit that Tebow brings any sort of value to your team. Laughing


So Bill Belichick signed Spencer Larsen, Brandon Lloyd, Daniel Fells, Michael Hoomanawanui, and traded for Greg Salas and that was all a coincidence and BB doesn't do things because McDaniels wants them?

McDaniels is BB's assistant coach, and a coaching staff is a team. If BB feels that he can get more out of McDaniels as a professional by letting him have his little pet projects around, it is arguably in the interest of the team to bring them in. Question the logic if you wish.
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Richter


Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:

Use your imagination. Several theories have been posited; Urban Meyer, Bob Kraft, his history with the Jets, McDaniels... and just because final say rests with Belichick, doesn't mean he wouldn't do something at the recommendation of someone else, or for a reason other than a strict desire to improve the team. I don't get why you're struggling with this concept. You've really never done something you didn't want to do at the solicitation of another?


Again all those theories rely on Belichick just brainlessly going along with what someone else says. You really think the most cerebral coach in the NFL would willingly bring some worthless hack into his OTA just because someone begged him too? It's a weak argument on your part that you can't support with any evidence. You'd rather take a weak stance then admit that Tebow brings any sort of value to your team. :lol:

No they don't. Do you EVER fulfill someone else's request? Does that make you brainless? Wait, I already have my answer to that one...
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:

Use your imagination. Several theories have been posited; Urban Meyer, Bob Kraft, his history with the Jets, McDaniels... and just because final say rests with Belichick, doesn't mean he wouldn't do something at the recommendation of someone else, or for a reason other than a strict desire to improve the team. I don't get why you're struggling with this concept. You've really never done something you didn't want to do at the solicitation of another?


Again all those theories rely on Belichick just brainlessly going along with what someone else says. You really think the most cerebral coach in the NFL would willingly bring some worthless hack into his OTA just because someone begged him too? It's a weak argument on your part that you can't support with any evidence. You'd rather take a weak stance then admit that Tebow brings any sort of value to your team. Laughing


So you've never hired anyone who one of your subordinates recommended despite having reservations? It happens quite frequently in the business world. Belichick trusts McDaniels and gives him a lot of pull in personnel decisions. If McDaniels said "hey Bill, I think I can fix Tebow's mechanics" or "hey Bill, sure Tebow sucks now but I have a plan which is...." I'm sure Bill would listen.

Unless you are arguing that he is a tyrant, it is likely that he gives certain players a look specifically based on input from his inner circle. Whether that's McDaniels, a scout or a non-Patriots person (e.g. Nick Saban, Pat Hill, Urban Meyer etc) despite not seeing value in the player.

Put another way: is there any chance Tebow would be on the Pats if McDaniels was not? No, I don't believe so.

Being in a position of power means trusting those who report to you. It's no secret that McDaniels has Belichick's ear more than just about anyone on the current staff. And we know that Belichick - despite the persona - does give his "team" of decision makers a whole lot of clout.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:

Use your imagination. Several theories have been posited; Urban Meyer, Bob Kraft, his history with the Jets, McDaniels... and just because final say rests with Belichick, doesn't mean he wouldn't do something at the recommendation of someone else, or for a reason other than a strict desire to improve the team. I don't get why you're struggling with this concept. You've really never done something you didn't want to do at the solicitation of another?


Again all those theories rely on Belichick just brainlessly going along with what someone else says. You really think the most cerebral coach in the NFL would willingly bring some worthless hack into his OTA just because someone begged him too? It's a weak argument on your part that you can't support with any evidence. You'd rather take a weak stance then admit that Tebow brings any sort of value to your team. :lol:


So you've never hired anyone who one of your subordinates recommended despite having reservations? It happens quite frequently in the business world. Belichick trusts McDaniels and gives him a lot of pull in personnel decisions. If McDaniels said "hey Bill, I think I can fix Tebow's mechanics" or "hey Bill, sure Tebow sucks now but I have a plan which is...." I'm sure Bill would listen.

Unless you are arguing that he is a tyrant, it is likely that he gives certain players a look specifically based on input from his inner circle. Whether that's McDaniels, a scout or a non-Patriots person (e.g. Nick Saban, Pat Hill, Urban Meyer etc) despite not seeing value in the player.

Put another way: is there any chance Tebow would be on the Pats if McDaniels was not? No, I don't believe so.

Being in a position of power means trusting those who report to you. It's no secret that McDaniels has Belichick's ear more than just about anyone on the current staff. And we know that Belichick - despite the persona - does give his "team" of decision makers a whole lot of clout.

But according to Shockey1979 here, we only live in a world of polar opposites. He's either a tyrant or brain-dead, no other options exist...
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terbo559


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe Montana is to Tom Brady as Steve Young is to Tim Tebow?
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Donut


Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24isthelaw wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Again all those theories rely on Belichick just brainlessly going along with what someone else says. You really think the most cerebral coach in the NFL would willingly bring some worthless hack into his OTA just because someone begged him too? It's a weak argument on your part that you can't support with any evidence. You'd rather take a weak stance then admit that Tebow brings any sort of value to your team. Laughing


So Bill Belichick signed Spencer Larsen, Brandon Lloyd, Daniel Fells, Michael Hoomanawanui, and traded for Greg Salas and that was all a coincidence and BB doesn't do things because McDaniels wants them?

McDaniels is BB's assistant coach, and a coaching staff is a team. If BB feels that he can get more out of McDaniels as a professional by letting him have his little pet projects around, it is arguably in the interest of the team to bring them in. Question the logic if you wish.

To continue off this Belichick is good at assembling staff he trusts and imo Scar and McDaniels are the 2 coaches on staff he trusts the most. He spoke highly of McDaniels and he's only guy to return at coordinator spot(Daboll at a lower role(consultant lower than WR coach(right?))).

Belichick's inner circle is clearly effecting his decision making. Its not a coincidence we have a ton of Rutgers guys. Though I think of coaches McDaniels and Scarnecchia are the clear most impactful on personnel.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:

So you've never hired anyone who one of your subordinates recommended despite having reservations? It happens quite frequently in the business world. Belichick trusts McDaniels and gives him a lot of pull in personnel decisions. If McDaniels said "hey Bill, I think I can fix Tebow's mechanics" or "hey Bill, sure Tebow sucks now but I have a plan which is...." I'm sure Bill would listen..


If I own a business and one of my subordinates suggests a course of action. And I consider the course and decide it has absolutely no value and would bring no benefit to my business then I would not agree on the course of action no matter how much I liked the subordinate or how much they begged. Even though the risk may be low it's not even worth my time if I believe it's truly worthless.

If I consider the action and have my doubts about it. But I agree that there is a good potential for value to my business and the risk is low... I go along with it. Even though there is no certainty the prospect will be a boost to my business makes it worth the low risk.

The problem here is all your theories depend on the thought that Bill sees absolutely no value in Tebow. The only reason why he brought him in is to appease a subordinate. This is a huge leap in logic and suggests that Bill is either losing his ability to judge talent, or is a big softy that would rather appease a subordinate over his own convictions that a player is worthless. I find both of these options to be extremely illogical. And make no mistake...they ARE the only two options with the logic you guys are using here.

The truth is Bill is the business owner in the second scenario. He probably has his doubts about Tim. But he realizes that there is potential in him to be a valuable asset to the team. The risk is so low that he's willing to take his chances on the 90 man OTA roster and give Tebow a shot to prove himself. Whether he makes the 50 man roster will remain to be seen. But in no way can you logically suggest Bill would ever bring in a player he believes is absolutely worthless in all regards just because a subordinate or friend begged him to.

Everything Bill does is for the betterment of the team. The trading down, the hard negotiating, bringing in older stars at low contracts. He wouldn't even bother with this whole scenario if he didn't think there wasn't a good potential for return. He can squash out the media circus, improve Tebow to the point that he is decent. Showcase him in the preseason and blowout wins, and then move him for a 2nd round pick in a year or two.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:

So you've never hired anyone who one of your subordinates recommended despite having reservations? It happens quite frequently in the business world. Belichick trusts McDaniels and gives him a lot of pull in personnel decisions. If McDaniels said "hey Bill, I think I can fix Tebow's mechanics" or "hey Bill, sure Tebow sucks now but I have a plan which is...." I'm sure Bill would listen..


If I own a business and one of my subordinates suggests a course of action. And I consider the course and decide it has absolutely no value and would bring no benefit to my business then I would not agree on the course of action no matter how much I liked the subordinate or how much they begged. Even though the risk may be low it's not even worth my time if I believe it's truly worthless.

If I consider the action and have my doubts about it. But I agree that there is a good potential for value to my business and the risk is low... I go along with it. Even though there is no certainty the prospect will be a boost to my business makes it worth the low risk.

The problem here is all your theories depend on the thought that Bill sees absolutely no value in Tebow. The only reason why he brought him in is to appease a subordinate. This is a huge leap in logic and suggests that Bill is either losing his ability to judge talent, or is a big softy that would rather appease a subordinate over his own convictions that a player is worthless. I find both of these options to be extremely illogical. And make no mistake...they ARE the only two options with the logic you guys are using here.

The truth is Bill is the business owner in the second scenario. He probably has his doubts about Tim. But he realizes that there is potential in him to be a valuable asset to the team. The risk is so low that he's willing to take his chances on the 90 man OTA roster and give Tebow a shot to prove himself. Whether he makes the 50 man roster will remain to be seen. But in no way can you logically suggest Bill would ever bring in a player he believes is absolutely worthless in all regards just because a subordinate or friend begged him to.

Everything Bill does is for the betterment of the team. The trading down, the hard negotiating, bringing in older stars at low contracts. He wouldn't even bother with this whole scenario if he didn't think there wasn't a good potential for return. He can squash out the media circus, improve Tebow to the point that he is decent. Showcase him in the preseason and blowout wins, and then move him for a 2nd round pick in a year or two.


Josh: hey let's sign Tebow

Bill: I hate Tebow he sucks

Josh: I know you think so but I have a plan and what do we have to lose? A roster spot we don't need?

Bill: ok I still don't see the value but I have been wrong before and I trust you. Lets bring him in

You don't think that's a possible scenario? It happens frequently in well-functioning businesses. Only someone who is arrogant to the point of incompetence wouldn't occasionally cater to his trusted subordinates. He might not see value in Tebow, but we know he sees great value in McDaniels.

Honestly I think you're badly misunderstanding the way Belichick has run the team for the last 13 years as well as the way successful upper level executives manage their personnel in just about any industry.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The premise that Bill would think any roster spot is a spot he doesn't need is a smack in the face to coaching. I understand OTA's are a 90 man roster but you bring in 90 people you think have value and could make your 53 man roster better. Yes 37 people will need to be cut by the time opening day comes but you don't just bring in some worthless hack you think sucks and has zero value for a favor because the guy you could have had there may been the next Victor Cruz type undrafted free agent or the like.

I think by going along these lines of thinking you'd rather indicate Bill is wreckless rather then admit Tebow has any value. Again this is a very weak position. It's akin to the Cowboy fans who would rather throw every other player on their offense under the bus then to ever admit Romo choked. Laughing
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Richter


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:

So you've never hired anyone who one of your subordinates recommended despite having reservations? It happens quite frequently in the business world. Belichick trusts McDaniels and gives him a lot of pull in personnel decisions. If McDaniels said "hey Bill, I think I can fix Tebow's mechanics" or "hey Bill, sure Tebow sucks now but I have a plan which is...." I'm sure Bill would listen..


If I own a business and one of my subordinates suggests a course of action. And I consider the course and decide it has absolutely no value and would bring no benefit to my business then I would not agree on the course of action no matter how much I liked the subordinate or how much they begged. Even though the risk may be low it's not even worth my time if I believe it's truly worthless.

If I consider the action and have my doubts about it. But I agree that there is a good potential for value to my business and the risk is low... I go along with it. Even though there is no certainty the prospect will be a boost to my business makes it worth the low risk.

The problem here is all your theories depend on the thought that Bill sees absolutely no value in Tebow. The only reason why he brought him in is to appease a subordinate. This is a huge leap in logic and suggests that Bill is either losing his ability to judge talent, or is a big softy that would rather appease a subordinate over his own convictions that a player is worthless. I find both of these options to be extremely illogical. And make no mistake...they ARE the only two options with the logic you guys are using here.

The truth is Bill is the business owner in the second scenario. He probably has his doubts about Tim. But he realizes that there is potential in him to be a valuable asset to the team. The risk is so low that he's willing to take his chances on the 90 man OTA roster and give Tebow a shot to prove himself. Whether he makes the 50 man roster will remain to be seen. But in no way can you logically suggest Bill would ever bring in a player he believes is absolutely worthless in all regards just because a subordinate or friend begged him to.

Everything Bill does is for the betterment of the team. The trading down, the hard negotiating, bringing in older stars at low contracts. He wouldn't even bother with this whole scenario if he didn't think there wasn't a good potential for return. He can squash out the media circus, improve Tebow to the point that he is decent. Showcase him in the preseason and blowout wins, and then move him for a 2nd round pick in a year or two.

Well, it makes sense now, I suppose. I didn't realize I was arguing with someone totally detached from reality.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
The premise that Bill would think any roster spot is a spot he doesn't need is a smack in the face to coaching. I understand OTA's are a 90 man roster but you bring in 90 people you think have value and could make your 53 man roster better. Yes 37 people will need to be cut by the time opening day comes but you don't just bring in some worthless hack you think sucks and has zero value for a favor because the guy you could have had there may been the next Victor Cruz type undrafted free agent or the like.

I think by going along these lines of thinking you'd rather indicate Bill is wreckless rather then admit Tebow has any value. Again this is a very weak position. It's akin to the Cowboy fans who would rather throw every other player on their offense under the bus then to ever admit Romo choked. :lol:

Well, he must be smacking coaching in the face pretty hard right now then, since they went through mini-camp with 88 players on the roster.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
The premise that Bill would think any roster spot is a spot he doesn't need is a smack in the face to coaching. I understand OTA's are a 90 man roster but you bring in 90 people you think have value and could make your 53 man roster better. Yes 37 people will need to be cut by the time opening day comes but you don't just bring in some worthless hack you think sucks and has zero value for a favor because the guy you could have had there may been the next Victor Cruz type undrafted free agent or the like.

I think by going along these lines of thinking you'd rather indicate Bill is wreckless rather then admit Tebow has any value. Again this is a very weak position. It's akin to the Cowboy fans who would rather throw every other player on their offense under the bus then to ever admit Romo choked. Laughing

Well, he must be smacking coaching in the face pretty hard right now then, since they went through mini-camp with 88 players on the roster.


No. They recently released Cherrington and Kafka. Prior to that they had 90
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Richter


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
The premise that Bill would think any roster spot is a spot he doesn't need is a smack in the face to coaching. I understand OTA's are a 90 man roster but you bring in 90 people you think have value and could make your 53 man roster better. Yes 37 people will need to be cut by the time opening day comes but you don't just bring in some worthless hack you think sucks and has zero value for a favor because the guy you could have had there may been the next Victor Cruz type undrafted free agent or the like.

I think by going along these lines of thinking you'd rather indicate Bill is wreckless rather then admit Tebow has any value. Again this is a very weak position. It's akin to the Cowboy fans who would rather throw every other player on their offense under the bus then to ever admit Romo choked. :lol:

Well, he must be smacking coaching in the face pretty hard right now then, since they went through mini-camp with 88 players on the roster.


No. They recently released Cherrington and Kafka. Prior to that they had 90

Uh yeah, they were released the 10th, prior to mini-camp.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
The premise that Bill would think any roster spot is a spot he doesn't need is a smack in the face to coaching. I understand OTA's are a 90 man roster but you bring in 90 people you think have value and could make your 53 man roster better. Yes 37 people will need to be cut by the time opening day comes but you don't just bring in some worthless hack you think sucks and has zero value for a favor because the guy you could have had there may been the next Victor Cruz type undrafted free agent or the like.

I think by going along these lines of thinking you'd rather indicate Bill is wreckless rather then admit Tebow has any value. Again this is a very weak position. It's akin to the Cowboy fans who would rather throw every other player on their offense under the bus then to ever admit Romo choked. Laughing

Well, he must be smacking coaching in the face pretty hard right now then, since they went through mini-camp with 88 players on the roster.


No. They recently released Cherrington and Kafka. Prior to that they had 90

Uh yeah, they were released the 10th, prior to mini-camp.


The Patriot OTA's wrapped up June 7th. Right now they are in the Mandatory minicamps. They carried 90 guys through the OTA's....
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