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#NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (Tebow)
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
I'm not sure what point you're making with that statement.


The same point I have been making all along. This is Belichicks offense. Not Brady's, McDaniels, or Kraft's. Everything runs through Bill. Including the signing of Tebow. And if he signed Tim Tebow then he believes there is something of value he brings to the Patriots offense. Either admit that... or claim that Belichick signed a no talent worthless player.
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Or perhaps the Pats offense is bigger then any one guy be it the HOF QB or journeyman OC. As long as Belichick is there it seems to function even with any one individual cog missing.

The offense is always bigger than one guy. I'm not sure what point you're making with that statement. It's been my contention for some time that as good as the Patriots' offense is, McDaniels' play calling has held them back in key situations. He's the weak link, more so than anything else.So why would I want him catered to?


How about the injuries, drops, and the player's failures to execute during critical moments of the game, in the most critical games of the season over the last few seasons? Your reasons still aren't resonating....
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
Richter wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
Richter wrote:
mission27 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't really see the difference, if the thought process is that there was an ulterior motive, or worse yet, that he didn't make the call directly, but was just fulfilling a request from his offensive coordinator. A lot of McDaniels' guys have been brought in following his return, is it really a stretch to think that another would be?


Is this such a bad thing, though? Bring Tebow in for a few weeks because your OC who you trust and respect wants to give him a shot. Assuming he really isn't a fit, you let him go. If he works out, great. Doesn't really cost all that much.

There are obviously trade-offs to be made but I don't think there's anything wrong with management making decisions that aren't solely and exclusively geared towards fielding the most talented roster. If Belichick did this to make his OC happy, to improve team chemistry, to sell jerseys... nothing wrong with that. Heck, if he did this to make Urban Meyer happy and keep the information pipeline chugging along? I'm sure that'd be worth every penny.

I'm guessing he made the decision he thought was in the long term best interests of the Patriots. Unless this was just a favor to Tebow. But that seems like a stretch.

Ordinarily I'd say no, but when the OC is a grade-A jackass like McDaniels...

But, I never wanted him back, and I've been calling for his firing for a while. He's not a guy I wanted associated with the franchise, period.


This is absolutely one of the most absurd things I've heard in this forum. It's your opinion, but the reasons don't resonate.

I consider any defense of McDaniels absurd, so I guess we're even. I like how the Patriots didn't miss a beat on offense when he left. Really must have been all his doing.


That's a moot point, as he is currently under title, and we're still one of the best offenses in the NFL. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


It's not a moot point at all if one's contention is that the offense was just fine without McDaniels, thus it isn't his brain which is driving the nearly unprecedented levels of efficiency and success. It's actually quite pertinent..
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rabbisson


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always been pro Bill O'Brien (even during the bad times), so meh. I just don't really trust McDaniels when it comes to personnel. He's a good coach and not a horrid strategist, although he gets fancy sometimes, but I'm not a big fan of his personnel decisions.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I'm not sure what point you're making with that statement.


The same point I have been making all along. This is Belichicks offense. Not Brady's, McDaniels, or Kraft's. Everything runs through Bill. Including the signing of Tebow. And if he signed Tim Tebow then he believes there is something of value he brings to the Patriots offense. Either admit that... or claim that Belichick signed a no talent worthless player.

Everything does run through Bill. That doesn't mean his decisions aren't influenced by others. What is so hard to grasp about that?
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rabbisson wrote:
I've always been pro Bill O'Brien (even during the bad times), so meh. I just don't really trust McDaniels when it comes to personnel. He's a good coach and not a horrid strategist, although he gets fancy sometimes, but I'm not a big fan of his personnel decisions.


His playcalling leaves a lot to be desired and his ability to make adjustments in-game is below where it needs to be.
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
Richter wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
Richter wrote:
mission27 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't really see the difference, if the thought process is that there was an ulterior motive, or worse yet, that he didn't make the call directly, but was just fulfilling a request from his offensive coordinator. A lot of McDaniels' guys have been brought in following his return, is it really a stretch to think that another would be?


Is this such a bad thing, though? Bring Tebow in for a few weeks because your OC who you trust and respect wants to give him a shot. Assuming he really isn't a fit, you let him go. If he works out, great. Doesn't really cost all that much.

There are obviously trade-offs to be made but I don't think there's anything wrong with management making decisions that aren't solely and exclusively geared towards fielding the most talented roster. If Belichick did this to make his OC happy, to improve team chemistry, to sell jerseys... nothing wrong with that. Heck, if he did this to make Urban Meyer happy and keep the information pipeline chugging along? I'm sure that'd be worth every penny.

I'm guessing he made the decision he thought was in the long term best interests of the Patriots. Unless this was just a favor to Tebow. But that seems like a stretch.

Ordinarily I'd say no, but when the OC is a grade-A jackass like McDaniels...

But, I never wanted him back, and I've been calling for his firing for a while. He's not a guy I wanted associated with the franchise, period.


This is absolutely one of the most absurd things I've heard in this forum. It's your opinion, but the reasons don't resonate.

I consider any defense of McDaniels absurd, so I guess we're even. I like how the Patriots didn't miss a beat on offense when he left. Really must have been all his doing.


That's a moot point, as he is currently under title, and we're still one of the best offenses in the NFL. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


It's not a moot point at all if one's contention is that the offense was just fine without McDaniels, thus it isn't his brain which is driving the nearly unprecedented levels of efficiency and success. It's actually quite pertinent..


It is moot, because with or without him, the offense is still grand. And if you want to get technical, actually slightly better than when he wasn't here. So why call for his head?
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Shockey1979


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
. What is so hard to grasp about that?


Ironic..

Quote:
he signed Tim Tebow then he believes there is something of value he brings to the Patriots offense. Either admit that... or claim that Belichick signed a no talent worthless player.


What's so hard to grasp about this question?

If everything runs through Bill and he makes the final decision despite whatever influence he receives from anyone including McDaniels...and according to you Tebow is a worthless no talent player...then why is he in your OTA? Is Bill going senile or are you wrong about Tebow? It's one or the other.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:
. What is so hard to grasp about that?


Ironic..

Quote:
he signed Tim Tebow then he believes there is something of value he brings to the Patriots offense. Either admit that... or claim that Belichick signed a no talent worthless player.


What's so hard to grasp about this question?

If everything runs through Bill and he makes the final decision despite whatever influence he receives from anyone including McDaniels...and according to you Tebow is a worthless no talent player...then why is he in your OTA? Is Bill going senile or are you wrong about Tebow? It's one or the other.

Stop positing this false dilemma. Belichick needs to be neither senile nor do I need to be wrong about Tebow. What part of "Bill is doing this for reasons other than simply improving the team" is so hard to grasp? Seriously, this isn't difficult. Either you understand it, or you don't.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
Richter wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
Richter wrote:
mission27 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't really see the difference, if the thought process is that there was an ulterior motive, or worse yet, that he didn't make the call directly, but was just fulfilling a request from his offensive coordinator. A lot of McDaniels' guys have been brought in following his return, is it really a stretch to think that another would be?


Is this such a bad thing, though? Bring Tebow in for a few weeks because your OC who you trust and respect wants to give him a shot. Assuming he really isn't a fit, you let him go. If he works out, great. Doesn't really cost all that much.

There are obviously trade-offs to be made but I don't think there's anything wrong with management making decisions that aren't solely and exclusively geared towards fielding the most talented roster. If Belichick did this to make his OC happy, to improve team chemistry, to sell jerseys... nothing wrong with that. Heck, if he did this to make Urban Meyer happy and keep the information pipeline chugging along? I'm sure that'd be worth every penny.

I'm guessing he made the decision he thought was in the long term best interests of the Patriots. Unless this was just a favor to Tebow. But that seems like a stretch.

Ordinarily I'd say no, but when the OC is a grade-A jackass like McDaniels...

But, I never wanted him back, and I've been calling for his firing for a while. He's not a guy I wanted associated with the franchise, period.


This is absolutely one of the most absurd things I've heard in this forum. It's your opinion, but the reasons don't resonate.

I consider any defense of McDaniels absurd, so I guess we're even. I like how the Patriots didn't miss a beat on offense when he left. Really must have been all his doing.


That's a moot point, as he is currently under title, and we're still one of the best offenses in the NFL. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


It's not a moot point at all if one's contention is that the offense was just fine without McDaniels, thus it isn't his brain which is driving the nearly unprecedented levels of efficiency and success. It's actually quite pertinent..


It is moot, because with or without him, the offense is still grand. And if you want to get technical, actually slightly better than when he wasn't here. So why call for his head?


It's not moot. The argument is that the offense runs fine - getting first downs, scoring tons of points - without him. He brings other less desirable traits to the table (specifically personnel input which has stunk both here in his first run with the team and in Denver) and (IMO, not to put words in Richter's mouth) a sub-par ability to make in-game adjustments.

If any halfway competent offensive coordinator can run "Belichick's" offense with Brady and have a top 5-7 (or better) offense, why settle for a guy with pretty glaring warts? They can get a similar result on-field without the questionable personnel input and with (perhaps) better adjustments would lead to an even better performance.

Lastly, the "McDaniels" offense has had a knack for spitting the bit in big moments or against skilled defensive coordinators. I'm not sure why we should expect that to change. His gameplan and adjustments in SB42 were awful. Not to take anything away from the Giants who played very very well, but IMO Charlie Weis or maybe Bill O'Brien wins that game.

What, exactly, has McDaniels done to demonstrate he's a guy worth keeping in the organization for a long time? Have there been a ton of young players making big developmental leaps? No, I haven't seen that. The skill players who have had the most time under him as a coach have largely stunk or plateaued. Has he shown an unrivaled ability to drive the Pats offense? No, O'Brien did just as well (if not not better in some ways).

The guy's entire career and reputation is based on a 10 game (or so) stretch in 2007. Everything since November of that year has been decidedly mediocre or below average and certainly nothing worthy of coveting. If the Pats win a Super Bowl while he is here, it will largely be in spite of him, not because of him.
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again:

patsfan25 wrote:
Richter wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Or perhaps the Pats offense is bigger then any one guy be it the HOF QB or journeyman OC. As long as Belichick is there it seems to function even with any one individual cog missing.

The offense is always bigger than one guy. I'm not sure what point you're making with that statement. It's been my contention for some time that as good as the Patriots' offense is, McDaniels' play calling has held them back in key situations. He's the weak link, more so than anything else.So why would I want him catered to?


How about the injuries, drops, and the player's failures to execute during critical moments of the game, in the most critical games of the season over the last few seasons? Your reasons still aren't resonating....


None of these reasons have support behind it. All you guys are doing is trying really really hard to nitpick his deficiency as a cog on this team. Show me a perfect playcaller. Show me a perfect coordinator. His overall impact on this team results in a top tier attack. I'll sip a cup of tea to that over many other things. And while you want to nitpick, I think the defense can do better for this team to "make up" for the fallacies of McDaniels.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
His overall impact on this team results in a top tier attack


Based on what? Player development? Playcalling? Strategizing? Adjustments? Specifically, what is it about him that makes him a good coach?

Seems to me that he's riding Brady's coattails and got lucky that his first year as "official" OC came the same year the team added Welker and Moss.

Randy Moss made Josh McDaniels. Without him, McDaniels is the same bum many wanted fired in 2006, the same bum who was run out of town in Denver and the same bum whose poor gameplan and adjustments in the biggest game (arguably) in franchise history cost them a 4th Super Bowl title.

Forget the numbers for a second. What, specifically, does McDaniels do especially well as a coach relative to his peers?
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Richter


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
His overall impact on this team results in a top tier attack


Based on what? Player development? Playcalling? Strategizing? Adjustments? Specifically, what is it about him that makes him a good coach?

Seems to me that he's riding Brady's coattails and got lucky that his first year as "official" OC came the same year the team added Welker and Moss.

Randy Moss made Josh McDaniels. Without him, McDaniels is the same bum many wanted fired in 2006, the same bum who was run out of town in Denver and the same bum whose poor gameplan and adjustments in the biggest game (arguably) in franchise history cost them a 4th Super Bowl title.

Forget the numbers for a second. What, specifically, does McDaniels do especially well as a coach relative to his peers?

You know, I was going to target the exact same line as you did. People always seem to mistake presence with effect. Guys get taken along for the ride in many cases. It's the classic Trent Dilfer argument. Trent Dilfer acted as a caretaker and stayed out of the way of a historically great team and won a Super Bowl. That didn't make him a franchise quarterback. Sanchez apologists point to the fact that the Jets went to two AFC championship games, and often use misleading language about how he "led them" there. Same thing with McDaniels. He's basically been able to stay out of the way of an all-time great quarterback and an excellent supporting cast enough to allow them to do their thing most of the time. That's basically the best thing you can say about him as a coach.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:
. What is so hard to grasp about that?


Ironic..

Quote:
he signed Tim Tebow then he believes there is something of value he brings to the Patriots offense. Either admit that... or claim that Belichick signed a no talent worthless player.


What's so hard to grasp about this question?

If everything runs through Bill and he makes the final decision despite whatever influence he receives from anyone including McDaniels...and according to you Tebow is a worthless no talent player...then why is he in your OTA? Is Bill going senile or are you wrong about Tebow? It's one or the other.

Stop positing this false dilemma. Belichick needs to be neither senile nor do I need to be wrong about Tebow. What part of "Bill is doing this for reasons other than simply improving the team" is so hard to grasp? Seriously, this isn't difficult. Either you understand it, or you don't.


"Reasons other then improving the team".... I don't recall you ever stating these reasons. All I have heard is "Must have been McDaniels influence". But as we have covered on the past few pages even with McDaniels influence Bill still makes the ultimate decisions. So what are these other reasons if not for he thinks Tebow can help improve the team?

Does he want the extra media attention? Doubtful
Do the Pats need the extra apparel sales? Hardly
Is Belichick a bleeding heart and just feels bad for Tim? Possibly but seems unlikely

So if Tebow truly is worthless like you claim what is this ulterior motive that Bill has to bring him in?
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Richter


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Richter wrote:
. What is so hard to grasp about that?


Ironic..

Quote:
he signed Tim Tebow then he believes there is something of value he brings to the Patriots offense. Either admit that... or claim that Belichick signed a no talent worthless player.


What's so hard to grasp about this question?

If everything runs through Bill and he makes the final decision despite whatever influence he receives from anyone including McDaniels...and according to you Tebow is a worthless no talent player...then why is he in your OTA? Is Bill going senile or are you wrong about Tebow? It's one or the other.

Stop positing this false dilemma. Belichick needs to be neither senile nor do I need to be wrong about Tebow. What part of "Bill is doing this for reasons other than simply improving the team" is so hard to grasp? Seriously, this isn't difficult. Either you understand it, or you don't.


"Reasons other then improving the team".... I don't recall you ever stating these reasons. All I have heard is "Must have been McDaniels influence". But as we have covered on the past few pages even with McDaniels influence Bill still makes the ultimate decisions. So what are these other reasons if not for he thinks Tebow can help improve the team?

Does he want the extra media attention? Doubtful
Do the Pats need the extra apparel sales? Hardly
Is Belichick a bleeding heart and just feels bad for Tim? Possibly but seems unlikely

So if Tebow truly is worthless like you claim what is this ulterior motive that Bill has to bring him in?

Use your imagination. Several theories have been posited; Urban Meyer, Bob Kraft, his history with the Jets, McDaniels... and just because final say rests with Belichick, doesn't mean he wouldn't do something at the recommendation of someone else, or for a reason other than a strict desire to improve the team. I don't get why you're struggling with this concept. You've really never done something you didn't want to do at the solicitation of another?
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