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Re-Ranking the roster: #1
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Hawks best player?
Richard Sherman
33%
 33%  [ 7 ]
Marshawn Lynch
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Earl Thomas
33%
 33%  [ 7 ]
Russell Okung
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Max Unger
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Russell Wilson
14%
 14%  [ 3 ]
Percy Harvin
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 21

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Brown_Mamba


Joined: 13 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
Brown_Mamba wrote:
Earl is more valuable to the team, but Sherman is the better player. They're both monsters though.


This is kinda where I'm at, though I think Sherman's value to the team is really understated. We always talk about how much ground Earl can cover and how much of the field he takes away, but do we realize that Sherman essentially takes away his third of the field and the player he's covering? I think Sherman is downright elite at his position with very few (if any) glaring weaknesses, whereas I cannot say the same about Earl. Sherman is a top 20 player in the NFL, whereas Earl falls somewhere between 25-45 for me.

Sherman's the best player on this team.
Sherman does benefit from Earl though. At least 4 of his intercepts he was able to undercut a route because he had Earl behind him. The fact of the matter is, people are right when they say Sherman's role in Seattle's scheme is easier than Revis' role in the Jets scheme. Now the difference is difficultly is overstated greatly, but Earl helps Sherman more than some us, the Seattle fan base, care to admit.

That's not me saying Sherman is worse than Earl, it's very close and I can understand the votes for Sherm.

The question does become muddled. If we're purely looking for the best player, regardless of positional value, weird guys like Jon Ryan should make it onto the list ahead of Wilson and Mebane.

As far as positional value, I value what Earl brings to this team over Sherman.


If Earl didn't have bricks for hands he would probably be #1 to me. But we're really splitting hairs here.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brown_Mamba wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
Brown_Mamba wrote:
Earl is more valuable to the team, but Sherman is the better player. They're both monsters though.


This is kinda where I'm at, though I think Sherman's value to the team is really understated. We always talk about how much ground Earl can cover and how much of the field he takes away, but do we realize that Sherman essentially takes away his third of the field and the player he's covering? I think Sherman is downright elite at his position with very few (if any) glaring weaknesses, whereas I cannot say the same about Earl. Sherman is a top 20 player in the NFL, whereas Earl falls somewhere between 25-45 for me.

Sherman's the best player on this team.
Sherman does benefit from Earl though. At least 4 of his intercepts he was able to undercut a route because he had Earl behind him. The fact of the matter is, people are right when they say Sherman's role in Seattle's scheme is easier than Revis' role in the Jets scheme. Now the difference is difficultly is overstated greatly, but Earl helps Sherman more than some us, the Seattle fan base, care to admit.

That's not me saying Sherman is worse than Earl, it's very close and I can understand the votes for Sherm.

The question does become muddled. If we're purely looking for the best player, regardless of positional value, weird guys like Jon Ryan should make it onto the list ahead of Wilson and Mebane.

As far as positional value, I value what Earl brings to this team over Sherman.


If Earl didn't have bricks for hands he would probably be #1 to me. But we're really splitting hairs here.
You won't hear me complaining if Sherm is voted #1.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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KayJayz


Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went with Earl because if he wasn't back there, I think Sherm would not have the confidence he has now. I see Earl and Sherm as 1a and 1b to be honest. I'm okay with it either way.
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SoS


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
Brown_Mamba wrote:
Earl is more valuable to the team, but Sherman is the better player. They're both monsters though.


This is kinda where I'm at, though I think Sherman's value to the team is really understated. We always talk about how much ground Earl can cover and how much of the field he takes away, but do we realize that Sherman essentially takes away his third of the field and the player he's covering? I think Sherman is downright elite at his position with very few (if any) glaring weaknesses, whereas I cannot say the same about Earl. Sherman is a top 20 player in the NFL, whereas Earl falls somewhere between 25-45 for me.

Sherman's the best player on this team.
Sherman does benefit from Earl though. At least 4 of his intercepts he was able to undercut a route because he had Earl behind him. The fact of the matter is, people are right when they say Sherman's role in Seattle's scheme is easier than Revis' role in the Jets scheme. Now the difference is difficultly is overstated greatly, but Earl helps Sherman more than some us, the Seattle fan base, care to admit.

That's not me saying Sherman is worse than Earl, it's very close and I can understand the votes for Sherm.

The question does become muddled. If we're purely looking for the best player, regardless of positional value, weird guys like Jon Ryan should make it onto the list ahead of Wilson and Mebane.

As far as positional value, I value what Earl brings to this team over Sherman.


No, I think the acknowledgement for what Earl does for Sherman is fair. He does very little. Almost 90% of the time (obviously a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised) Earl is shaded over to Browner's side of the field because he is a clear deep field liability. A lot of what Sherman does is his own doing and he's perhaps the best player in the league at the single most difficult position to play in all of sports. As far as value to the team is concerned, like I said, Sherman eliminates his man completely and forces the offense to go elsewhere. Sherman really has no weaknesses to his game whereas Earl is among the league leaders in missed tackles at his position and has displayed some pretty awful hands, and that's without even getting into his general size.

I don't really wanna hear the Jon Ryan stuff, because a punter might see the field 5 times a game, if that, so the comparison is really apples to oranges.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Earl had bad hands for the first 8 games or so this season. That's the only time that's been the case his whole career. So drop the bull about him having bad hands. Go watch all of Sherms picks. Do it. You can find Earl in most of them. Earl makes Sheem better. He makes both Browner and Kam drastically better.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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SoS


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
Earl had bad hands for the first 8 games or so this season. That's the only time that's been the case his whole career. So drop the bull about him having bad hands. Go watch all of Sherms picks. Do it. You can find Earl in most of them. Earl makes Sheem better. He makes both Browner and Kam drastically better.


Earl has had his issues in the past, let's be real. This wasn't the first time we had seen misplayed balls by him, it's just the first time we had seen it happen that frequently to where it was obvious. And that still doesn't cover his poor tackling skills relative to his position and his lack of ideal size, two things that Sherman actually has. Sherman also has much better ball skills, that much really isn't debatable either.

And okay, I'll take you up on watching every single one.

#1: 14:10 left in the 2nd quarter @ St. Louis, Seattle up 7-3
* Sherman intercepts a hitch route intended for Brandon Gibson, Earl literally has nothing to do with the play. He has deep Cover 1 formation but Sherman read the QB and reacted on the play before Thomas had anything to do with it.

#2: 14:55 left in the 4th quarter vs San Francisco, Seattle up 35-6
* Sherman intercepts a late crossing pattern intended for Randy Moss at the back of the goal line. Earl is indeed in the picture....but so are the other 9 Seattle defenders. Earl once again literally has nothing to do with this play as it was pure man coverage and Sherman was the deepest defender.

#3: 10:51 left in the 2nd quarter vs New York Jets, tied 7-7
* Sherman is playing zone coverage on what looks to be Dustin Keller. Sherman bites Sanchez into throwing it late and he jumps on it and intercepts it at the goal line. Earl Thomas is nowhere to be seen on the play.

#4: Not sure what point of the game, but versus the Patriots
* Sherman is in the slot against Deion Branch. This is the first interception I've seen so far where you could even try to make an argument that Earl had an impact. Sherman is in pure man coverage, is in Branch's hip pocket throughout the entire play, and picks off the slightly under thrown ball. Earl is playing over the top on this play and comes into the picture after the pass is thrown.

#5: End of the Rams game
* Sherman intercepts the pass intended for Austin Pettis at the goal line. Jeron Johnson is in the area with no sight of Earl Thomas. Mark it down to another great man coverage play by Sherm.

#6: 7:45 in the 3rd quarter @ Arizona, Seattle down 13-10
* Sherman intercepts an intended hitch route to Larry Fitzgerald. Ball is thrown to the sideline and, whereas Fitz gives up on the play, Sherman makes the acrobatic interception along the sideline. Low and behold, Earl Thomas is not involved in the play.

#7: 10:20 left in the 2nd quarter vs Arizona, Seattle up 17-0
* I'll give you this one. Earl is playing underneath coverage, flashes through the route and perhaps forces the QB to throw a higher pass than originally desired, leading to the somewhat errant pass. Looking at the play however, Sherman has absolutely perfect coverage on Fitz and it actually looks like the QB is trying to throw the ball away or to the back shoulder and Sherm makes a great play on the ball.

#8: 2:35 left in the 2nd quarter vs Arizona, Seattle up 31-0
* This is another one where I could see credit to Earl. It looks like zone coverage where Earl comes underneath and plays Fitz's backside, while Sherman is playing over the top. Both players are manning their responsibilities perfectly and the QB happens to overthrow the ball where Sherman is playing it.


So I looked at all 8 of his interceptions in depth, and I don't see where you're getting this notion that Earl means so much to Sherman. Sherman would be elite with or without him.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#4 is definitely aided by Earl. He wouldn't be running underneath him like that if he didn't have help over the top. There's one more at least, I will go back and re-watch them.

Either way, he was aided on already 3 of them. Plays no other FS could give him legit support on.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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SoS


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
#4 is definitely aided by Earl. He wouldn't be running underneath him like that if he didn't have help over the top. There's one more at least, I will go back and re-watch them.

Either way, he was aided on already 3 of them. Plays no other FS could give him legit support on.


You're reaching.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
#4 is definitely aided by Earl. He wouldn't be running underneath him like that if he didn't have help over the top. There's one more at least, I will go back and re-watch them.

Either way, he was aided on already 3 of them. Plays no other FS could give him legit support on.


You're reaching.
By stating facts? I don't think so.




If we extended this picture out, you'd see you over on the right making twice as creepy of a face as Sherm is, only it would be directed at him. You're blinded by your love Wink

I, on the other hand, am past my honeymoon stage with Earl Laughing
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BlaqOptic wrote:
...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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imani


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well hopefully we all get to go to Hawaii with Russell this year Wink
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I don't believe for one second that Seattle makes it out of their first playoff game.

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SoS


Joined: 20 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
#4 is definitely aided by Earl. He wouldn't be running underneath him like that if he didn't have help over the top. There's one more at least, I will go back and re-watch them.

Either way, he was aided on already 3 of them. Plays no other FS could give him legit support on.


You're reaching.
By stating facts? I don't think so.


No, not the facts.

I generously gave you 2 plays where Earl had a SLIGHT impact on the play. But if you actually took the time to read each and every response, you'd see that Sherman was in perfect position to make the play all but one time, on the zone interception versus Arizona where it wasn't even his responsibility to cover Fitz.

You're reaching by taking these 2 generous plays I gave you, adding your own idea of Earl helping on another play, and then thinking you will find further evidence to support your idea in the other interceptions.

If you actually look at it from an objective eye and see where everyone is on the play and how the play came to be, you'd see that Earl is almost irrelevant to the way Sherman plays. We are predominantly playing man coverage, and in these instances Sherman is essentially in his man's hip pocket whether Earl is there or not.

You can say you're past the "honeymoon stage", but this is definitely a case of two guys defending "their guys", not just one.
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Tooki


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cannot deny that Sherm covers in the manner that he does on plays where he knows that ET is covering over the top. I also would not be surprised if he got some of his INT's in part because the QB did not see ET nearby but (due to his elite speed at the position) he was able to move across and cover the area in front of the receiver.
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SoS


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tooki wrote:
I cannot deny that Sherm covers in the manner that he does on plays where he knows that ET is covering over the top. I also would not be surprised if he got some of his INT's in part because the QB did not see ET nearby but (due to his elite speed at the position) he was able to move across and cover the area in front of the receiver.


I'm not really sure what you mean by the last sentence. Sherman is pretty much in position to make plays on the ball regardless of whether or not Earl is there. I think it's silly to try and discredit what Sherman does for what Earl does.

All I keep hearing about Earl is all of this intangible stuff. All of this, "well he was not seen" or "he would have been position if the ball was thrown", but I'm pointing out clear reasons as to why Sherman is better. He's actually elite at his position, Earl is not. Sherman is an above average tackler, Earl is not. Sherman has tremendous ball skills, Earl does not. Sherman has great size for his position, Earl does not.
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Tooki


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I mean is that Sherm can play in front of the corner and gamble somewhat because ET is in coverage behind him and he can cover the back end. The corners played quite a bit of zone coverage last season and it shows on some of his INT's.

I am interested to see how Sherm does this year, given that the team will be playing a lot more man-coverage than last year, when we saw quite a bit of press-zone coverage.

Earl Thomas also has a large intangible impact on this defense. The team can play press coverage because ET can cover the back half better than anybody in the league. Kam Chancellor has a role on this team because of ET.

If Earl is not elite at the position, who is elite then? Earl has more speed than Sherm, especially short range acceleration.
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SoS


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer your question, there are no elite players at the safety position in today's NFL. At least not yet. Earl can get there and is probably the best in the league at his position, but it doesn't make him elite. That's a very specific designation and a word that gets thrown around far too often on this site.

Ed Reed was elite. Earl is not Ed Reed.
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