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Your thoughts on Aldrick Robinson's future?
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 5965
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Wow. Umm I just don't even know what to say.

Keep hating our best and most productive veterans, that's really going to make you a relevant poster... Rolling Eyes

Marcus is right, the best players will play. If Robinson was better than moss he'd play more, but currently, he's not. Same goes for Fletchcer vs our reserve ILBs

Wow. Umm I just don't even know what to say.

Keep hating all the veterans, that's really going to make you a relevant poster... Rolling Eyes

Your reasons make no sense for why loss produces. He the #1 option, that's why he scored... Who cares? The point were making is he produced on those scores and on 3rd downs.

He's not a good short zone receiver because he's not tall, what? There's been so many productive small, quick guys in the slot over the last 20-30 years and Moss is one of them that's it too many names to name.

Rg3 is going to throw more ints because of Moss not being the best option in the short zone. Well why didn't Rg3 throw more ints as a rookie then?

Unfortunately for you, None of your points have much validity, they're all opinion which is fine, but you can't prove it.

Moss is going to be in the team and he's probably going to put up similar numbers to last year as our 3rd WR. He's been a very consistent WR throughout his entire career and he seems wiser in his old age and makes young DBs look foolish. His catch in the first Giants game last year was a thing of beauty and the catch of the year for the redskins, I'm not so sure he was the first read on that TD, but I'm not sure either of us can answer who is the first read all the time because we don't call or execute the plays.
He refuses to acknowledge the actual performance of the players on the field. He believes that anyone could perform at the same level. Unfortunately that just isn't reality. There are only 53 players for 32 teams worth of people on the planet considered talented enough to perform this job, and of those people only a certain few actually play and contribute. There's a reason these guys are paid millions of dollars, their skillsets are rare. Its supply and demand.
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lavar703


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may bash Santana Moss quite a bit but the funny thing about that is he's far and away one of my favorite Redskins of all-time. His toe drag in general is a thing of beauty. He may not put up huge numbers but he brings veteran leadership and consistency to the position. I've wanted him gone before because he seemed to lose focus and just give up but now I feel like he's earned it. He should be able to stay around as long as he wants and retire a Redskin.
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote: "He refuses to acknowledge the actual performance of the players on the field. He believes that anyone could perform at the same level."

Well no, it's just the opposite. Marcus & Turtle are emphasizing his statistical production, I'm the one placing greater weight on his "actual performance". And I provide evidence to back everything I say, geez... and it's them who deny or have undermined Robinson's performance. It's like, the guy drawing all the coverage isn't producing, the guy(s) who benefit & catch the ball are. Ha-ha. I did not say "anyone" could've run those routes, I said any other rec'r, meaning Garcon, Hankerson, Morgan and yes, Robinson could've done the same thing! I've asked them and I'll ask you, which of those catches exemplify a skill set that he possesses that they don't?

I'm not the one who contends Moss is this master route runner, the guy Griffin turns to when everybody else is covered. Turtle's own material proves that whatever evidence there is to support either contention, it's at best, weak. My point isn't that he's a washball, but that he's been grossly overpaid & his importance, very much overrated. Oh yeah, then they said stuff like Robinson was "easily replaceable" and needed learn from Moss. See, Moss, the guy Shanahan had to tell to come to camp in better shape, oh he's the consummate professional while Robinson is the leaker. It's not my opinion, that nonsense is bull & I provided the evidence refuting it!

Obviously, like the others, you're a big Santana Moss fan & anyone who critiques his game isn't relevant or must be a Cowboy mole. There's this perception that he's a master and makes defenders look foolish but when you go to the source what you find is that the bulk of his production was off screens & other really short passes. The catches that were downfield were vs zone or like the one vs Atlanta, they just ignored him. The best one to me is the one cited just before your comment. He beats Colt Anderson, a backup safety known more for his STs play, to the corner. Griffin's timing & placement is perfect, Moss probably would've caught it even with better coverage. They lined up Garcon & Moss to the weak side and the Eagles blitzed the CB who would've otherwise covered Moss. The blitz is picked up, Griffin has time and Moss beats this guy & pretty soundly. Good play. But if you think Robinson couldn't have done that, you're out of your mind.
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote: "He refuses to acknowledge the actual performance of the players on the field. He believes that anyone could perform at the same level."

Well no, it's just the opposite. Marcus & Turtle are emphasizing his statistical production, I'm the one placing greater weight on his "actual performance". And I provide evidence to back everything I say, geez... and it's them who deny or have undermined Robinson's performance. It's like, the guy drawing all the coverage isn't producing, the guy(s) who benefit & catch the ball are. Ha-ha. I did not say "anyone" could've run those routes, I said any other rec'r, meaning Garcon, Hankerson, Morgan and yes, Robinson could've done the same thing! I've asked them and I'll ask you, which of those catches exemplify a skill set that he possesses that they don't?

I'm not the one who contends Moss is this master route runner, the guy Griffin turns to when everybody else is covered. Turtle's own material proves that whatever evidence there is to support either contention, it's at best, weak. My point isn't that he's a washball, but that he's been grossly overpaid & his importance, very much overrated. Oh yeah, then they said stuff like Robinson was "easily replaceable" and needed learn from Moss. See, Moss, the guy Shanahan had to tell to come to camp in better shape, oh he's the consummate professional while Robinson is the leaker. It's not my opinion, that nonsense is bull & I provided the evidence refuting it!

Obviously, like the others, you're a big Santana Moss fan & anyone who critiques his game isn't relevant or must be a Cowboy mole. There's this perception that he's a master and makes defenders look foolish but when you go to the source what you find is that the bulk of his production was off screens & other really short passes. The catches that were downfield were vs zone or like the one vs Atlanta, they just ignored him. The best one to me is the one cited just before your comment. He beats Colt Anderson, a backup safety known more for his STs play, to the corner. Griffin's timing & placement is perfect, Moss probably would've caught it even with better coverage. They lined up Garcon & Moss to the weak side and the Eagles blitzed the CB who would've otherwise covered Moss. The blitz is picked up, Griffin has time and Moss beats this guy & pretty soundly. Good play. But if you think Robinson couldn't have done that, you're out of your mind.
No, now you're putting words into my mouth. I do agree with you that his abilities are diminishing as he gets older. In fact he probably doesn't have much left in the tank and I wouldn't be suprised if this were his last year with the team. The offense should try to get the younger guys (Hankerson, Robinson) more involved this year to gain them some experience, but this shouldn't be at the expense of production on the field.

Moss still has some skillsets that the younger WRs are not as adept at. Specifically, Moss runs better routes and has better timing developed with the QB. These skills are more important in the redzone where the field is smaller and gaining separation is more difficult. You dismiss Moss' stats as not being his true performance but last time I checked TDs win the football game, and no one caught more of them for the Redskins last year than Moss. That is the evidence you keep asking for to prove he's a quality reciever. Whether you want to admit it or not he was the most productive amoungst our recievers last year in putting points on the board. Your "evidence" cannot dispute that because it is fact.

We should continue to bring along the youngsters and their time will come. However, if Moss still has any left he should get the playing time because he's still a superior football player. If he begins to decline this season we should supplement his playing time to Hankerson and Robinson and see what they can do. Simply dismissing Moss because he's older is just foolish.

EDIT - In addition, you stated you believe a reciever who catches short routes and takes them for TDs doesn't require much skill. Really? What takes more skill catching a 30 yard pass or taking a screen and weaving through 30 yards of traffic? I don't really understand your point here. If anything you're supporting that Moss is more talented by saying he took short passes and turned them into TDs.
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote: "Specifically, Moss runs better routes and has better timing developed with the QB. These skills are more important in the redzone where the field is smaller and gaining separation is more difficult. You dismiss Moss' stats as not being his true performance... That is the evidence you keep asking for to prove he's a quality reciever."

Here again are the same claims. The statistical record is certainly a reflection of what Moss did, but you make the same false claim by suggesting those numbers explain how he did it, that it was all a product of his exceptional skill set. These claims, that what separates Moss from a guy like Aldrick Robinson is his route running & that he's Griffin's go-to-guy when he has nowhere to go with the football are unsubstantiated. When I pointed out that Moss was clearly targeted on all of his TDs & perhaps all but one of his receptions, Turtle's response was; "who cares?" Ha-ha. You guys have been asked repeatedly to provide the visual evidence, yet everyone of you refuses to do so! It's not like that evidence is hard to find, Turtle in fact posted a video of Moss' entire 2012 production in another thread.

I went to the source, expecting somewhere in there to see Moss putting on a clinic on how to gain separation & I didn't see it. It appeared more to me that his production was largely a product of the system, that he was often running a route that exposed holes in the coverage, favorable matchups (vs LBs) or areas they knew would be open. What you don't see is a guy beating press coverage, coming through a jam, getting his man turned one way & exploding out of his break. You don't see him forcing safety support or any post-snap adjustment to his pre-determined route. What's glaringly obvious is that there's no real commitment from opposing secondaries to shut him down. At this point in his career, I'm seeing a made player, a system guy. He's not a guy they had to have & he certainly isn't a guy they had to pay that kind of money to!

This is my final response to rhetoric. I'll address evidence, but no more opinions.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sure hope its your last response about Fletch, Moss or Doughty because there's only one person spouting off rhetoric. Confused
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Posts: 5965
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote: "Specifically, Moss runs better routes and has better timing developed with the QB. These skills are more important in the redzone where the field is smaller and gaining separation is more difficult. You dismiss Moss' stats as not being his true performance... That is the evidence you keep asking for to prove he's a quality reciever."

Here again are the same claims. The statistical record is certainly a reflection of what Moss did, but you make the same false claim by suggesting those numbers explain how he did it, that it was all a product of his exceptional skill set. These claims, that what separates Moss from a guy like Aldrick Robinson is his route running & that he's Griffin's go-to-guy when he has nowhere to go with the football are unsubstantiated. When I pointed out that Moss was clearly targeted on all of his TDs & perhaps all but one of his receptions, Turtle's response was; "who cares?" Ha-ha. You guys have been asked repeatedly to provide the visual evidence, yet everyone of you refuses to do so! It's not like that evidence is hard to find, Turtle in fact posted a video of Moss' entire 2012 production in another thread.

I went to the source, expecting somewhere in there to see Moss putting on a clinic on how to gain separation & I didn't see it. It appeared more to me that his production was largely a product of the system, that he was often running a route that exposed holes in the coverage, favorable matchups (vs LBs) or areas they knew would be open. What you don't see is a guy beating press coverage, coming through a jam, getting his man turned one way & exploding out of his break. You don't see him forcing safety support or any post-snap adjustment to his pre-determined route. What's glaringly obvious is that there's no real commitment from opposing secondaries to shut him down. At this point in his career, I'm seeing a made player, a system guy. He's not a guy they had to have & he certainly isn't a guy they had to pay that kind of money to!

This is my final response to rhetoric. I'll address evidence, but no more opinions.
No one is posting some massive "evidence" filled response because its unnecessary. You're the only one here with your opinion everyone else seems to be of like mind. You've posted no "evidence" contradicting what is generally considered common knowledge. Coming in and stating your opinion as fact then demanding evidence to the contrary makes your posts in general arrogant, abrasive and rather rude in nature.

Finally, this is the second topic you've hijacked to push an agenda against another player on the team (the J Jenkins thread you hated on Fletcher, now Moss in the A Robinson thread). If you want to start a conversation about your opinion on these players start a new thread with a well thought out non hostile statement of your view of these players and begin an intelligent conversation about them.
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DCRED


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:

DCRED wrote: "He [Josh Morgan] is seriously becoming a fixture here in DC. And RIGHTFULLY so. ... Led the team in Receptions playing THAT hurt. All this talk of other people's hands and hand size (etc) and this guy goes out and does that with torn ligaments and tendons. You know why? DESIRE. Give me a break on all this talk about other people replacing him. He will find a home on this team for a while. Even if he is not our #1 or #2 he is going to sign another deal. ... We need guys who can catch in traffic. Who can outmuscle the other team even if they are not physically bigger or faster than their defender. Morgan is one of those guys. He Wants It. And he is Home."

Ba-da-bing!!! Whoa, dude!


Thanks Man... By the way, I think I may have to start writing in red text- That looks sick Twisted Evil
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
markrc99 wrote:

DCRED wrote: "He [Josh Morgan] is seriously becoming a fixture here in DC. And RIGHTFULLY so. ... Led the team in Receptions playing THAT hurt. All this talk of other people's hands and hand size (etc) and this guy goes out and does that with torn ligaments and tendons. You know why? DESIRE. Give me a break on all this talk about other people replacing him. He will find a home on this team for a while. Even if he is not our #1 or #2 he is going to sign another deal. ... We need guys who can catch in traffic. Who can outmuscle the other team even if they are not physically bigger or faster than their defender. Morgan is one of those guys. He Wants It. And he is Home."

Ba-da-bing!!! Whoa, dude!


Thanks Man... By the way, I think I may have to start writing in red text- That looks sick Twisted Evil
Woz asked him to because he refuses to use the quote button.

From what I've seen of Briscoe as a #3 WR in Tampa and last preseason for us, he can take over Morgan's spot and be more productive putting up points. Briscoe had more than half the number of Tds Morgan has in his 5 year career in one season, and Morgan has been a starter for 3 seasons, Briscoe has been on teams with better receivers and never been above #3.

11 career Tds for Morgan- 28 years old
6 Tds for Briscoe in 2011- 24 years old when the season starts
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DCRED


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
markrc99 wrote:

DCRED wrote: "He [Josh Morgan] is seriously becoming a fixture here in DC. And RIGHTFULLY so. ... Led the team in Receptions playing THAT hurt. All this talk of other people's hands and hand size (etc) and this guy goes out and does that with torn ligaments and tendons. You know why? DESIRE. Give me a break on all this talk about other people replacing him. He will find a home on this team for a while. Even if he is not our #1 or #2 he is going to sign another deal. ... We need guys who can catch in traffic. Who can outmuscle the other team even if they are not physically bigger or faster than their defender. Morgan is one of those guys. He Wants It. And he is Home."

Ba-da-bing!!! Whoa, dude!


Thanks Man... By the way, I think I may have to start writing in red text- That looks sick Twisted Evil
Woz asked him to because he refuses to use the quote button.

From what I've seen of Briscoe as a #3 WR in Tampa and last preseason for us, he can take over Morgan's spot and be more productive putting up points. Briscoe had more than half the number of Tds Morgan has in his 5 year career in one season, and Morgan has been a starter for 3 seasons, Briscoe has been on teams with better receivers and never been above #3.

11 career Tds for Morgan- 28 years old
6 Tds for Briscoe in 2011- 24 years old when the season starts



Weak. Last year you kept saying Briscoe had shown nothing against starters and I pointed out to you that he had scored 6 TD's against NFL talent and he would make the team. While you kept insisting he would be cut. Ok.

You are overlooking a MAJOR tendency of Shanahan. Until Briscoe shows more in practice he's not even going to sniff the field. Morgan is going to be the one showing these guys how to receive in practice AND games (Garcon too).

Briscoe more productive putting up points??? Look at these stats and tell me who helped the TEAM put up more points:

Briscoe 2012 2 Receptions 22 Yards 0 TDs :Healthy
Morgan 2012 48 Receptions 510 Yards 2 TDS :With screws coming out of his foot and torn tendons/ ligaments in his hands


I WANT to see Briscoe stay and produce but he's not showing any desire at all like Morgan is.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morgan is also a great blocker.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
markrc99 wrote:

DCRED wrote: "He [Josh Morgan] is seriously becoming a fixture here in DC. And RIGHTFULLY so. ... Led the team in Receptions playing THAT hurt. All this talk of other people's hands and hand size (etc) and this guy goes out and does that with torn ligaments and tendons. You know why? DESIRE. Give me a break on all this talk about other people replacing him. He will find a home on this team for a while. Even if he is not our #1 or #2 he is going to sign another deal. ... We need guys who can catch in traffic. Who can outmuscle the other team even if they are not physically bigger or faster than their defender. Morgan is one of those guys. He Wants It. And he is Home."

Ba-da-bing!!! Whoa, dude!


Thanks Man... By the way, I think I may have to start writing in red text- That looks sick Twisted Evil
Woz asked him to because he refuses to use the quote button.

From what I've seen of Briscoe as a #3 WR in Tampa and last preseason for us, he can take over Morgan's spot and be more productive putting up points. Briscoe had more than half the number of Tds Morgan has in his 5 year career in one season, and Morgan has been a starter for 3 seasons, Briscoe has been on teams with better receivers and never been above #3.

11 career Tds for Morgan- 28 years old
6 Tds for Briscoe in 2011- 24 years old when the season starts



Weak. Last year you kept saying Briscoe had shown nothing against starters and I pointed out to you that he had scored 6 TD's against NFL talent and he would make the team. While you kept insisting he would be cut. Ok.

You are overlooking a MAJOR tendency of Shanahan. Until Briscoe shows more in practice he's not even going to sniff the field. Morgan is going to be the one showing these guys how to receive in practice AND games (Garcon too).

Briscoe more productive putting up points??? Look at these stats and tell me who helped the TEAM put up more points:

Briscoe 2012 2 Receptions 22 Yards 0 TDs :Healthy
Morgan 2012 48 Receptions 510 Yards 2 TDS :With screws coming out of his foot and torn tendons/ ligaments in his hands


I WANT to see Briscoe stay and produce but he's not showing any desire at all like Morgan is.
yeah last year Briscoe came in right before camp, he was 3 months behind. i believe re-signing Briscoe next off-season will be several million dollars cheaper for more Tds... Lets see what happens

@Mknight82. Morgan is currently a better blocker but I'd like to see how Briscoe looks year 2 in our system. He should be much improved in that area as I'm sure coaches grilled him on it and told him if he wanted to play, he needed to block better
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DCRED


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
Morgan is also a great blocker.


True. Very important...

Personally, I'd keep Morgan and Briscoe. I argued for keeping Briscoe last year to develop him while turtle tried to say why we should cut him

Now, I'm arguing for keeping Morgan. Why? I can't really see why it would hurt to re-sign him for depth. He brings Heart and Determination to a WR corps that has been lacking those not to mention Production.

Our WR corps is not so stacked that we can't keep them and draft a WR too.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
yeah last year Briscoe came in right before camp, he was 3 months behind. i believe re-signing Briscoe next off-season will be several million dollars cheaper for more Tds... Lets see what happens

@Mknight82. Morgan is currently a better blocker but I'd like to see how Briscoe looks year 2 in our system. He should be much improved in that area as I'm sure coaches grilled him on it and told him if he wanted to play, he needed to block better


Excuses. Rolling Eyes Josh Morgan had never played in Shanahan's Offense and led the team in Receptions, Plus got as many TD's as Briscoe had Catches Shocked Before you say he led the team because Garcon was hurt: He STEPPED UP, and Briscoe couldn't. 2 Receptions in a Year is Horrible...pathetic

Everyone has a role. Neither one of these guys is going to bring what Garcon can. Just keep them both and put them in good situations. That is, IF Briscoe can earn a spot on the field, which Morgan already has.
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an attempt to get what I want from the quote box:

Quote:
turtle28 wrote: "I sure hope its your last response about Fletch, Moss or Doughty because there's only one person spouting off rhetoric. ... Woz asked him to because he refuses to use the quote button."


Ha-ha, good one... As I said, the default font size in the quote box is too small. You & DCRED clearly agree with me as you both change the default size. The other thing I don't like about it is that unless you edit, the same comments are reposted over & over again. That said, I do use the quote box when citing sourced material. So I have the size figured out. But here's the other thing... In order to get "turtle28 wrote", I have to reply to your previous comment directly. Which limits me to responding to one person per post, unless again, I jump through these hoops.
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