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Woz


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I love Morgan, don't get me wrong but his contract is voidable after this season and he gets more expensive after this season. Maybe they'll rework something or cut him and re-sign him but I don't see Morgan getting paid 10.1 million to be a #2 WR

http://mobile.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/josh-morgan/


No, his contract auto-voids. It was only a five year on paper for accounting purposes; in reality, it was a two year deal. Now, they might re-sign him, but I'm not sure they re-do his deal, especially since the salaries for years 3-5 is 9M.
oh ok, is that why there's a gap in his contract in 2014, he's got nothing there and then he's due 10.1 in 2015 & 16?


Uhh ... looks like he has an entry on your link for 2014 as well. However, the line through 2014, 2015, and 2016 reflect the auto void.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
]I love Morgan, don't get me wrong but his contract is voidable after this season and he gets more expensive after this season. Maybe they'll rework something or cut him and re-sign him but I don't see Morgan getting paid 10.1 million to be a #2 WR

http://mobile.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/josh-morgan/


They will work out a new deal because the current one is Voidable after 2 years. No, we won't pay him $10.1 million a year for 3 more years but it is ridiculously OBVIOUS why he will want to stay here and fact is we will have $20-30 Million cap money to sign him, Orakpo etc. then.

Many of our biggest concerns will still be on Rookie contracts at that point as well, or just signed new extensions/deals

With Allen at the helm we are getting reasonable deals done and this will be no different.

They only offered that contract to scare other teams away when they saw the enormity of it, (hadn't we just lost out on Eddie Royal, or was he after?, either way we were competing for him too) but that 2 year void was all by design. I doubt Morgan wants to play anywhere else after coming home and getting over 7 million guaranteed. Read about what kind of person he is and where he came from and tell me what You think.

They also just named a day after him in DC, among the other credit he is receiving for spending so much time in the community he loves.


I believe Royal left after Morgan was signed.

I'm not saying they won't try to re-sign Morgan, but I wouldn't expect a big deal.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I love Morgan, don't get me wrong but his contract is voidable after this season and he gets more expensive after this season. Maybe they'll rework something or cut him and re-sign him but I don't see Morgan getting paid 10.1 million to be a #2 WR

http://mobile.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/josh-morgan/


No, his contract auto-voids. It was only a five year on paper for accounting purposes; in reality, it was a two year deal. Now, they might re-sign him, but I'm not sure they re-do his deal, especially since the salaries for years 3-5 is 9M.


Woz, I don't mean to suggest he will make 9-10 million a year.
I think as shown in my post above that he Loves DC, DC loves him, and Allen will sign him to a deal that is reasonable for what he brings to the team.

His guaranteed money looked big last year, then he went out and led the team in Receptions, while playing hurt.

We'll see how this year goes with him playing healthy, and they will know exactly what his value to the team will be at age 27 and beyond.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
]I love Morgan, don't get me wrong but his contract is voidable after this season and he gets more expensive after this season. Maybe they'll rework something or cut him and re-sign him but I don't see Morgan getting paid 10.1 million to be a #2 WR

http://mobile.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-redskins/josh-morgan/


They will work out a new deal because the current one Voids after 2 years. No, we won't pay him $10.1 million a year for 3 more years but it is ridiculously OBVIOUS why he will want to stay here and fact is we will have $20-30 Million cap money to sign him, Orakpo etc. then.

Many of our biggest concerns will still be on Rookie contracts at that point as well, or just signed new extensions/deals

With Allen at the helm we are getting reasonable deals done and this will be no different.

They only offered that contract to scare other teams away when they saw the enormity of it, (hadn't we just lost out on Eddie Royal, or was he after?, either way we were competing for him too) but that 2 year void was all by design. I doubt Morgan wants to play anywhere else after coming home and getting over 7 million guaranteed. Read about what kind of person he is and where he came from and tell me what You think.

They also just named a day after him in DC, among the other credit he is receiving for spending so much time in the community he loves.
Again, I love Morgan he's actually from the city where the Redskins should have their stadium DC. Id like to see him back past this season also, but if we have Hank, Briscoe and Robinson coming up and playing well this training camp, in preseason and improving this season I don't see how he's back in 2014.

Leonard Hankerson's production was better per targets than Morgan last year and he wasn't even that far off in receptions and he had more TDs as Morgans reserve.

I think the writings on the wall for Morgan (sadly) I'm glad he's been here, I've always supported him, even after the rams game when most people didn't but Morgan and Briscoe have more upside, score more TDs than Morgan and are our future at his position.

I think they'll also draft a WR next year who will essentially be Morgan or moss' replacement on the roster.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote: "Why the bashing of Moss? [He] led us in TD receptions last year and was RG3's go to guy in tight spots, he's a good slot WR and took a pay cut to stay. Lay off the vets bro, our young guys are learning from them."

Why do you perceive setting the record straight as bashing? Anytime one of this team's young & unsung players is undermined to the favor of a leftover, that's going to raise me dude, every time! I'm sorry, but these characters from the former culture are grossly overrated. But yet again, the evidence seems lost on you. This notion that Robinson needs to learn from Moss is erroneous. The perception here seems largely that Moss is the consummate professional, totally committed to the team while Robinson doesn't understand what it takes. All of which is complete utter BS! Accordingly, Robinson helped MAKE Moss last year! According to Kyle Shanahan it was Robinson who DBs feared! Another "norm" in the NFL is that good & even better players are sitting behind money! Not w/o exception, but often the guy that plays is the guy that's paid!

Moss reportedly took a pay cut & perhaps it will turn out that way, but it wasn't an actual cut. Much of what was guaranteed is now incentive-based, so the question now would be what are these incentives? I don't know but I did find this:
Quote:
"And though these incentives have been characterized as "attainable," giving up guaranteed money is always a risk in a league in which your season could end on any given play." http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/73763/redskins-wr-santana-moss-takes-pay-cut

Okay, so he's accepted some risk but obviously he & his agent found these incentives favorable. In the "Wideout Battle" thread you added an excellent video of Moss' production from a year ago. You see how small Moss really is & how tiny his catching radius is & he has zero speed. That long catch & run vs Atlanta, all he does is just run down the middle of their secondary and no one bothers to cover him. It looked a lot like what went on in the Redskins secondary. Then there's the one where Griffin is scrambling around and decides to just put it up for grabs down near the goal line. There's two defenders right there, the ball hangs is really just a jump ball, yet Moss doesn't even have to elevate to catch it & then neither man is able to tackle him and prevent the touchdown. Ha-ha.

There were some nice ones, the one in the end zone where he drags his toe to stay in. There's another one vs Dallas where they have the DB turned around & Griffin throws what appears to be is that back-shoulder pass that the Packers were using a lot, a few seasons ago. But the vast majority of his catches were either off that WR screen or something else in the short zone. I didn't anything supporting this contention that he's a master route-runner. He appeared to me to be the primary target on every one of his receptions. You say Griffin went to him when he found himself in tight situations, what do you mean exactly? I assumed that meant that Griffin was finding Moss after his primary targets were covered, but your video refutes that.

Moss is an older player who sustained a concussion last year. And what you don't see in that video is a lot of physicality. C'mon dude, no 215lb. DB, let alone a LB, is going to aggressively come downhill and just completely separate him from the football. He releases clean on every one of those passes. None of that was vs press man, he's not having fight through being jammed at the line even once! To his side, a lot of the incompletions were not his fault. It appeared to me that he was covered on a lot of those & the ball was forced into him. You watch that video and it's easy to conclude that Robert Griffin could've thrown a lot more INTs than he did. Finally, you want to consider the placement of a lot of those throws. Griffin's timing & accuracy on some of those is absolutely perfect!

Now, early on they're taking a close look at Robinson, but really Moss has been a cat, not with 9 lives but with about 90 lives. Right? It's been Moss & next to nothing else forever. I'm someone who's fed up & sick of it. I'm conditioned to just expect something to happen to Robinson. You could probably find favorable odds that he won't even make it through pre-season in one piece. You might be right about Josh Morgan but I agree more with the others. This is from the article that was posted about him:

"It’s why he came back to Washington as soon as the Redskins showed even scant interest last offseason."

Morgan is clearly a class act off the field, active in the community. He's on the team he wants to play for & I doubt he'll give any less than 100% to show Shanahan he's a guy he can count on. That probably had something to do with why they liked him in the 1st place. It's ironic how you'll go on about some other player's perceived "commitment" to the team, virtually immeasurable but here it's like, nah, that doesn't mean $h!+. For me, if the team was going to carry a player, this is the type of guy you'd do that for. But I don't see him that way, I think he's a good player who can & will contribute. I don't think he's going anywhere.
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Marcus21


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason Moss plays over Robinson is because Robinson cant beat him out for the spot. This is the NFL and the best player plays. Moss rededicated himself last offseason. He came to camp leaner and in better shape. He won his playing time on the field and in practice. If Robinsin could beat out Moss or anyone else for playing time, he would.....and that goes for every postion on the field. The best player plays!!!!
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus21 wrote:
The reason Moss plays over Robinson is because Robinson cant beat him out for the spot. This is the NFL and the best player plays. Moss rededicated himself last offseason. He came to camp leaner and in better shape. He won his playing time on the field and in practice. If Robinsin could beat out Moss or anyone else for playing time, he would.....and that goes for every postion on the field. The best player plays!!!!
yeah, I don't know what markrc99's deal is against our position leaders and guys who've been on this team and been loyal good players for us, but it's whatever.

He's entitled to that opinion but the fact remains that all the players he complains about had significant contributions to our team winning the NFC East Division last year. All the players he is complaining about will be back on our roster this year and likely play near the levels they did last year or better. (Especially in Fletcher's case because he won't be limited with a severely hurt ankle)
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus21 wrote: "The truth about all of this is the reason Moss plays over Robinson is because Robinson cant beat him out for the spot. This is the NFL and the best player plays. Moss rededicated himself last offseason. He came to camp leaner and in better shape. He won his playing time on the field and in practice. If [Robinson] could beat out Moss or anyone else for playing time he would.....and that goes for every position on the field. The best player plays!!!"

That's how it should go & often times the player being paid more is the better player, but not always & it cuts every which way possible. Before, when rookies were paid exorbitant sums, they were put on the field even though the veteran they replaced may have still been just as good or better. You can believe what you want but African-American QBs haven't always been supported in this league in the same respect as their white counterparts. There are still questions as to whether they're subject to stereotypes. I'm not trying to start a discussion about racism in the NFL, just noting that this has been or more likely still is, one of the said circumstances where a player who's just as good or better, sits behind money.

If a front office or coaching staff make a blockbuster trade & give a guy a huge signing bonus & it turns out he doesn't fit the system they're running, they're not apt to put the younger player on the field who would be equally effective while gaining the necessary experience to win the job outright. There's also the perceived ramifications of making a change. Anything that's even remotely in the balance is going to lean toward the guy who's getting all the money &/or holds greater status. Which brings us to the legend, the face of the franchise for a decade or so, the guy that has given the team everything. Has he earned any loyalty from the organization & is it not in their interest to at least show some? Then the guy who at times may challenge authority or be disruptive in the locker room. He's the superior player but the coach is leery of losing control. The selfish player & on & on. It was shortly after the Packers parted with Sterling Sharpe that Brett Favre said the team just got better.

Here, you obviously afford Kyle Shanahan's comment no weight whatsoever. The rec'r scaring secondaries & drawing their attention was Robinson, not Moss. You say he "rededicated himself last offseason", well, why was that even necessary? If he's all these things you think he is, why was he asked to take a pay cut? Are you not aware that he came to camp in better shape because like Cooley, he was told to? Is that something you believe to be irrelevant? I watched the video of Moss' production from a year ago and I have to say, I wasn't impressed with any aspect of his game, including his speed. Am I missing something there? Perhaps in this situation the coaching staff is simply late to recognize what they have in Robinson? However, thus far he's someone they're taking a close look at. Like Hall, now that his pay is more commensurate, Moss might get the axe.
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Marcus21


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If a front office or coaching staff make a blockbuster trade & give a guy a huge signing bonus & it turns out he doesn't fit the system they're running, they're not apt to put the younger player on the field who would be equally effective while gaining the necessary experience to win the job outright.


That doesnt seem to be the case on this team. Albert Haynesworth made plenty of money and got benched. So did Mcnabb, Cooley, and Mcintosh. Shanny has made it clear form day one that this team is about compition at every position. If Robinson played better than Moss in camp, preseason, practice or games, he would have played over Moss. If im not mistaken Moss led the team in touchdowns and had pretty close to the same yards as all of the other recievers 500+. How is that a lack of production?

Quote:
The rec'r scaring secondaries & drawing their attention was Robinson, not Moss. You say he "rededicated himself last offseason", well, why was that even necessary? If he's all these things you think he is, why was he asked to take a pay cut? Are you not aware that he came to camp in better shape because like Cooley, he was told to? Is that something you believe to be irrelevant?


Im not saying Moss is a top level slot receiver in this league. Im just saying last year he was better Robinson. The evidence is his snaps and stats. Believe me, I hope Robinson can take some snaps from Moss and become our next slot receiver, but that hasnt happened yet, and until it does Moss is going to play.

Shannys is going to play the best player...I dont think therre is much argument in that
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:


I think the writings on the wall for Morgan (sadly) I'm glad he's been here, I've always supported him, even after the rams game when most people didn't but Morgan and Briscoe have more upside, score more TDs than Morgan and are our future at his position.

I think they'll also draft a WR next year who will essentially be Morgan or moss' replacement on the roster.
I think you were trying to say Hankerson and Briscoe, but...

Yeah, the writing is on the wall. Just not the writing you were expecting.

He is seriously becoming a fixture here in DC. And RIGHTFULLY so.

http://www.redskins.com/news-and-events/article-1/Morgan-Performs-By-Any-Means-Necessary/1df101e3-ff5e-4d11-99bf-7ee9f428a292

Quote:
“They even put little pads where the torn ligaments were. Then I would put my gloves on.”

Morgan has always worn gloves, but said the added padding made it feel like he was catching passes with someone else’s hands.

“It was weird. It just makes you concentrate that much more when the ball initially hits your hands; you’ve got to fingertip squeeze it,” he explained. “It took me back to my boxing days. You don’t want to have your hands taped liked a boxer playing receiver, but it helped with the pain.


Led the team in Receptions playing THAT hurt. All this talk of other people's hands and hand size (etc) and this guy goes out and does that with torn ligaments and tendons. You know why? DESIRE.

Give me a break on all this talk about other people replacing him. He will find a home on this team for a while. Even if he is not our #1 or #2 he is going to sign another deal.

You know another reason why? Look at these pics of the most physical WR we had on the team last year.
http://www.redskins.com/media-gallery/photo-gallery/Top-15-Receiver-Joshua-Morgan/0178e5d5-539d-4971-9ab6-f7eb2b94d209

We need guys who can catch in traffic. Who can outmuscle the other team even if they are not physically bigger or faster than their defender. Morgan is one of those guys. He Wants It.

And he is Home.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you're right DCRED, I do like Morgan. I'm still not sure he's here in 2014. We shall see.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus21 wrote: "That doesnt seem to be the case on this team. Albert Haynesworth made plenty of money and got benched. So did Mcnabb, Cooley, and Mcintosh. Shanny has made it clear from day one that this team is about competition at every position. If Robinson played better than Moss in camp, preseason, practice or games, he would have played over Moss. ... Shannys is going to play the best player..."

I suppose I have to concede that Moss is on this team for some reason that relates to football. But apart from what I already knew & after watching that video of his 2012 production, I have no idea what that is. Ha-ha... Fact is, he was the primary on those TDs you mention. There's nothing there that's special about what he does, I'm sorry. Any other rec'r, including Robinson, could've been the guy they had run those routes! It's not a matter of him possessing a skill set that the others lack. Don't you get it? He's just the guy they LET have the gravy! What he was at one time was a serious deep threat, that's the one exceptional trait he possessed. But I don't think he lined up out on the wing even once, they're all from the slot.

Now, consider that the owner wanted to draft Moss & that the two have even played handball together. So Moss has a very good, perhaps better depicted as a fortuitous relationship with the owner. You're discounting the fact that this was an owner who was very involved in piecing together his team. Is it really so unfathomable to consider that there might be just a bit of favoritism and/or loyalty at play here? Perhaps you could review the video and instruct me to where I can find him beating press coverage? Show me the play where he sheds a jam & separates, forcing help. Or the one where he turns his man and then explodes out of his break and puts the CB in a trail position. You can't, nor does it matter, you have some stats to cite.

With respect to Shanahan and competition I do agree that's largely the case, but not w/o exception & these leftovers are prime examples. That's part of the reason why I don't think they're his players or at least, not entirely. You mention Haynesworth but he wasn't Shanahan's responsibility, that wasn't his mistake. Haynesworth also forced the team's hand, being less than effective & vocally disruptive. Third, they thought they were going to get away with dumping his considerable cap hit into the uncapped season. Oh, I know, none of those facts mean anything. A coach always wants to put the best player on the field, but it's not always that simple. Couldn't it be that Shanahan had better be 100% sure before he demotes Moss?

Again, Moss is a ghost that just keeps reappearing. Something is going to happen and he's going to get on the field and be put in favorable situations where he can produce. But I'll tell you now, physically he really isn't suited for working the short zone. You want a big man there, a guy who is strong, can use his frame to shield off defenders and has a wide catching radius. A guy like Moss can be separated from the football, they can even let him catch it and then strip it from him. Worse, if Griffin forces the ball into him like he did on a number of those incompletions, he's going to throw more INTs than he did last year.

DCRED wrote: "He [Josh Morgan] is seriously becoming a fixture here in DC. And RIGHTFULLY so. ... Led the team in Receptions playing THAT hurt. All this talk of other people's hands and hand size (etc) and this guy goes out and does that with torn ligaments and tendons. You know why? DESIRE. Give me a break on all this talk about other people replacing him. He will find a home on this team for a while. Even if he is not our #1 or #2 he is going to sign another deal. ... We need guys who can catch in traffic. Who can outmuscle the other team even if they are not physically bigger or faster than their defender. Morgan is one of those guys. He Wants It. And he is Home."

Ba-da-bing!!! Whoa, dude!
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Umm I just don't even know what to say.

Keep hating our best and most productive veterans, that's really going to make you a relevant poster... Rolling Eyes

Marcus is right, the best players will play. If Robinson was better than moss he'd play more, but currently, he's not. Same goes for Fletchcer vs our reserve ILBs

Wow. Umm I just don't even know what to say.

Keep hating all the veterans, that's really going to make you a relevant poster... Rolling Eyes

Your reasons make no sense for why loss produces. He the #1 option, that's why he scored... Who cares? The point were making is he produced on those scores and on 3rd downs.

He's not a good short zone receiver because he's not tall, what? There's been so many productive small, quick guys in the slot over the last 20-30 years and Moss is one of them that's it too many names to name.

Rg3 is going to throw more ints because of Moss not being the best option in the short zone. Well why didn't Rg3 throw more ints as a rookie then?

Unfortunately for you, None of your points have much validity, they're all opinion which is fine, but you can't prove it.

Moss is going to be in the team and he's probably going to put up similar numbers to last year as our 3rd WR. He's been a very consistent WR throughout his entire career and he seems wiser in his old age and makes young DBs look foolish. His catch in the first Giants game last year was a thing of beauty and the catch of the year for the redskins, I'm not so sure he was the first read on that TD, but I'm not sure either of us can answer who is the first read all the time because we don't call or execute the plays.
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Geronimo


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My two-cent contribution:

I remember 3 TD by Moss last year: the long TD pass vs the Eagles (where he was great) the red-zone TD pass at Dallas (simply wonderful), the TD pass at NY (fantastic).

RG3 made his job, of course. And Moss did his own. Anybody else could? Maybe. But, for sure, he did.
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Jeezy Fanatic


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geronimo wrote:
My two-cent contribution:

I remember 3 TD by Moss last year: the long TD pass vs the Eagles (where he was great) the red-zone TD pass at Dallas (simply wonderful), the TD pass at NY (fantastic).

RG3 made his job, of course. And Moss did his own. Anybody else could? Maybe. But, for sure, he did.


This toe drag catch in the Eagles game last year to tie the game was spectacular. Not sure how many other players on our team are able to make that catch.


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