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Jonathan Martin - Is He The Answer At Left Tackle?
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Maddogg


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject: Jonathan Martin - Is He The Answer At Left Tackle? Reply with quote

Link to an article in Sun Sentinel -->


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/dolphins-blog/sfl-can-jonathan-martin-get-the-job-done-at-left-tackle-20130528,0,5377176.story


Myself I think he will be make great strides this year at LT and leave few doubters behind.
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ViolentMonk71


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time I hear Johnathan Martin speak it confirms that he is perhaps the smartest person on the team....with that said....his intelligence will only take him so far.

I do like the fact that he took to heart what the coaches said and put in the work to get better....that speak volumes about his desire to get better (I think many would be surprised how many are not willing to put in the work to get better). I agree with MD....I think he makes a vast improvement over last season and will be better then average.
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cddolphin


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

His biggest issue when you go back and watch him is undoubtedly his strength which, luckily for him, is also relatively easy to fix. The footwork is there, the athleticism is there, and he obviously has a good head on his shoulders. Let's see if this offseason of work and extra effort he has put in pays off.

I do have more faith in him at LT than John Jerry at RG.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good cripes, this entire article is essentially what I said all off season and got jumped on by half the forum. Now the mainstream media is saying the same dang thing.

Martin has a long ways to go. Counting on him to man the left side of the line is a mistake, IMHO. I'm not saying he can't do it, because he can. I'm saying its a mistake to count on it. Going from the worst tackle in the game last year, to a solid player is a jump that I think is unlikely, not impossible, but unlikely.

2nd seasons are big ones, and we can expect improvement from Martin. While much has been made about Martin's strength as an issue last year, he had other issues as well. His feet were questionable. He was also slow off the snap at times. I'm not sure added size will help him in those areas, and I am not convinced the strength will help him as he will now be going up against the best pass rushers in the league.

Whatever the case, it looks like we have no other option, and I will be rooting for him to go out there and kill it. Our season could depend on him, and Martin's reported dedication to the weight room (and 4 meals a day and snacks) sounds mildly promising. Hope he turns it around.
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SUG


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I can say is that he "better better be the answer" or Tannehill's in deep doo doo.

And like merc I fear that even if he does improve I have to ask myself "will he be a Playoff worthy LT" ?
Cause elevating his GM to "average" would clearly indicate that we should have made the move to RT a permanent one.

We shal see, I wish him the very best.

sug
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PhinFan52


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

god, I hope so.... well... going against Jordan and Wake.. should help make him better... or show the coaching staff if he isn't ready
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
Good cripes, this entire article is essentially what I said all off season and got jumped on by half the forum. Now the mainstream media is saying the same dang thing.

Martin has a long ways to go. Counting on him to man the left side of the line is a mistake, IMHO. I'm not saying he can't do it, because he can. I'm saying its a mistake to count on it. Going from the worst tackle in the game last year, to a solid player is a jump that I think is unlikely, not impossible, but unlikely.

2nd seasons are big ones, and we can expect improvement from Martin. While much has been made about Martin's strength as an issue last year, he had other issues as well. His feet were questionable. He was also slow off the snap at times. I'm not sure added size will help him in those areas, and I am not convinced the strength will help him as he will now be going up against the best pass rushers in the league.

Whatever the case, it looks like we have no other option, and I will be rooting for him to go out there and kill it. Our season could depend on him, and Martin's reported dedication to the weight room (and 4 meals a day and snacks) sounds mildly promising. Hope he turns it around.


I think you handled this well and put yourself in a very solid position on this topic. Whether he wins or loses you are right. I get the feeling that you want him cut, but I have nothing but my gut to back it up with. So you got me there.
If he succeeds you can always say that this is what you've always wanted.
If he screws up you can always say that we should have gotten someone else to play the position. Bet on all the horses.
But at the end of the day I know how many times you point out how poor his play was last season. And I also see the absence of ANY negative commentary about Jake Long.
This is not a characterization and nobody is jumping on you. I just don't think your observations are even handed.
You may appear to be saying the same thing as everyone else, but the rest of us are not beating it into the ground. We are also acknowledging the fact that he switched positions in a new offense as a rookie while his worst games where against two of the best defenses in the league.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:

I think you handled this well and put yourself in a very solid position on this topic. Whether he wins or loses you are right. I get the feeling that you want him cut, but I have nothing but my gut to back it up with. So you got me there.If he succeeds you can always say that this is what you've always wanted.
If he screws up you can always say that we should have gotten someone else to play the position. Bet on all the horses.
But at the end of the day I know how many times you point out how poor his play was last season.


With this post we MIGHT actually get somewhere with this on going conversation. Your transparency about what you "feel" about this topic and what your "gut" tells you about me is exactly what I suspected and have suspected all along. Your feelings and gut have been wrong about me ALL along, and that is what I have been so frustrated with and combating, largely, from post #1 on Jonathan Martin.

My stance has never changed on him. There are not two sides to this topic. EVERYONE, including me, wants DESPERATELY for Jonathan Martin to succeed. Again, if you go back to the first post I ever posted, and virtually every post since, I've ALWAYS said I want him to succeed.

What I have been fighting is the characterization that I don't, and the forum wide meme that Martin played "pretty well" last year.

Martin didn't play well last year. That is a fact. Now the forum wide consensus, and national media seems to be saying just that. That meme has changed. Was it a result of my posts (and those of a small handful of others in this forum) or was it the result of national sports writers starting to take note as they focus on the Dolphins coming season? I can't say, but you and many others here started this conversation last season by saying he played well and that I was wrong to point out that he was one of the worst tackles in the game last season.

I've also fought the idea that Martin played better on the left side. He didn't, despite the consensus that he did at one time in this forum. Again, the national media and some prominent sports writers have recently started to point that out. Does he "look more natural on the left side?" Maybe. I dunno. He could have looked more natural and comfortable, but he didn't play well there other than one game. There was a forum wide consensus of posters suggesting he played better there, and finally that seems to have flipped somewhat. Will he eventually find success on the left side? Maybe. He didn't last year. The tape shows that.


dolphinologist wrote:
I just don't think your observations are even handed.


My comments have always been consistent. You could, and I would encourage you, to pull up my very first posts on this topic. I want Martin to succeed. It seems that you'd prefer that I have the stance that he doesn't. By your own admission, you have a "feeling" and a "gut sense" that I want him cut. Why in the WORLD would I want any Dolphin player to fail?! Why would I want the Dolphins to lose another high draft pick to failure or improper fit? What would I gain from that? How is that not "even handed". I see how its not one sided, and that I am according to you, playing both sides of this, but my position on Martin was NEVER EVER one sided, no matter how much your gut told you it was or how much you had a feeling I did. Never once did I (or do I) want him to fail. I gain nothing by that, and quite the contrary, I do gain significantly with his improved play.

dolphinologist wrote:

You may appear to be saying the same thing as everyone else, but the rest of us are not beating it into the ground. We are also acknowledging the fact that he switched positions in a new offense as a rookie while his worst games where against two of the best defenses in the league.


The ONLY reason I've beaten anything into the ground on Martin, is because you and others were saying that Martin played well last year, and that he played better on the left side, and painted me as someone that wanted him to fail. I defended my positions, vehemently, that he didn't play well, he wasn't better on the left side and that I have no desire to see him fail.

I was the FIRST one to point out that the largest amount of growth from Martin could be expected this off season, that strength was the primary problem and that can be easily addressed in comparison to other short comings. You've focused almost entirely on your "gut feeling" that I wanted to see him fail. My vehemence and on Martin came as a direct result of your gut painting me incorrectly and that coming through in your posts on this topic, and your previous stance that Martin played well last year. He didn't and I have no interest, desire or even slight hope that he fails. Hopefully clarifying those points can FINALLY put this to rest.
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Maddogg


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:

I think you handled this well and put yourself in a very solid position on this topic. Whether he wins or loses you are right. I get the feeling that you want him cut, but I have nothing but my gut to back it up with. So you got me there.If he succeeds you can always say that this is what you've always wanted.
If he screws up you can always say that we should have gotten someone else to play the position. Bet on all the horses.
But at the end of the day I know how many times you point out how poor his play was last season.


With this post we MIGHT actually get somewhere with this on going conversation. Your transparency about what you "feel" about this topic and what your "gut" tells you about me is exactly what I suspected and have suspected all along. Your feelings and gut have been wrong about me ALL along, and that is what I have been so frustrated with and combating, largely, from post #1 on Jonathan Martin.

My stance has never changed on him. There are not two sides to this topic. EVERYONE, including me, wants DESPERATELY for Jonathan Martin to succeed. Again, if you go back to the first post I ever posted, and virtually every post since, I've ALWAYS said I want him to succeed.

What I have been fighting is the characterization that I don't, and the forum wide meme that Martin played "pretty well" last year.

Martin didn't play well last year. That is a fact. Now the forum wide consensus, and national media seems to be saying just that. That meme has changed. Was it a result of my posts (and those of a small handful of others in this forum) or was it the result of national sports writers starting to take note as they focus on the Dolphins coming season? I can't say, but you and many others here started this conversation last season by saying he played well and that I was wrong to point out that he was one of the worst tackles in the game last season.

I've also fought the idea that Martin played better on the left side. He didn't, despite the consensus that he did at one time in this forum. Again, the national media and some prominent sports writers have recently started to point that out. Does he "look more natural on the left side?" Maybe. I dunno. He could have looked more natural and comfortable, but he didn't play well there other than one game. There was a forum wide consensus of posters suggesting he played better there, and finally that seems to have flipped somewhat. Will he eventually find success on the left side? Maybe. He didn't last year. The tape shows that.


dolphinologist wrote:
I just don't think your observations are even handed.


My comments have always been consistent. You could, and I would encourage you, to pull up my very first posts on this topic. I want Martin to succeed. It seems that you'd prefer that I have the stance that he doesn't. By your own admission, you have a "feeling" and a "gut sense" that I want him cut. Why in the WORLD would I want any Dolphin player to fail?! Why would I want the Dolphins to lose another high draft pick to failure or improper fit? What would I gain from that? How is that not "even handed". I see how its not one sided, and that I am according to you, playing both sides of this, but my position on Martin was NEVER EVER one sided, no matter how much your gut told you it was or how much you had a feeling I did. Never once did I (or do I) want him to fail. I gain nothing by that, and quite the contrary, I do gain significantly with his improved play.

dolphinologist wrote:

You may appear to be saying the same thing as everyone else, but the rest of us are not beating it into the ground. We are also acknowledging the fact that he switched positions in a new offense as a rookie while his worst games where against two of the best defenses in the league.


The ONLY reason I've beaten anything into the ground on Martin, is because you and others were saying that Martin played well last year, and that he played better on the left side, and painted me as someone that wanted him to fail. I defended my positions, vehemently, that he didn't play well, he wasn't better on the left side and that I have no desire to see him fail.

I was the FIRST one to point out that the largest amount of growth from Martin could be expected this off season, that strength was the primary problem and that can be easily addressed in comparison to other short comings. You've focused almost entirely on your "gut feeling" that I wanted to see him fail. My vehemence and on Martin came as a direct result of your gut painting me incorrectly and that coming through in your posts on this topic, and your previous stance that Martin played well last year. He didn't and I have no interest, desire or even slight hope that he fails. Hopefully clarifying those points can FINALLY put this to rest.



So, how do you think Martin will do this year Merc?
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maddogg wrote:



So, how do you think Martin will do this year Merc?


Fair question, Maddogg. "I don't know" is the best answer I can give. I think its probably wishful thinking to assume he would go from one of the worst right tackles in the game last year, to one of the better left tackles in the game this year, hence my wish that we had brought in some real competition for him. I think it was a mistake to count on him this year. Hopefully not a big mistake.

I suspect he will improve, and the added strength will be necessary. He says he is eating "4 meals a day plus snacks", so the added weight everyone is talking about is unlikely to be pure muscle. Muscle weighs more than fat, but my guess is that he increased both size and strength (fat and muscle), not uncommon for rookies going into the second year. However, my concerns with Martin go beyond JUST strength, as I see deficits in his footwork and he is sometimes slow off the snap.

If I had to predict, I'd guess he would land somewhere around the 50th best Tackle in the league by PFF metrics next season. That would be an improvement of about 25 spots. I am obviously just guessing, but it seems to me unlikely that Martin would go from the 76th worst tackle in football to the harder side to play (competition wise) to a top 20 tackle.

My concern is that we NEED a top 20 tackle to remain competitive and to make a push for the playoffs. Its not mandatory as some teams had spotty LT play last year and still made a playoff run, but a young QB like Tannehill could use some confidence from a solid Oline, and with Martin on the left side/blindside, it seems likely to me he will either be insufficient or he will require a boat load of help like he did last year. Neither of those scenarios makes Tannehill or our offense better.

Hopefully, Martin has a miraculous turn around this year. However, the smart money is probably on a marginal turn around. What we would hope to see is improvement every year for the first 4 or 5 years. Then a true analysis of whether he is an NFL player/starter is more appropriate. I am just not convinced he needs to be starting right now based on what we saw last season. He certainly needed competition, real competition to push him and to ensure our team has better Tackle play than we did last year.
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bpastermack


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
Maddogg wrote:



So, how do you think Martin will do this year Merc?


Fair question, Maddogg. "I don't know" is the best answer I can give. I think its probably wishful thinking to assume he would go from one of the worst right tackles in the game last year, to one of the better left tackles in the game this year, hence my wish that we had brought in some real competition for him. I think it was a mistake to count on him this year. Hopefully not a big mistake.

I suspect he will improve, and the added strength will be necessary. He says he is eating "4 meals a day plus snacks", so the added weight everyone is talking about is unlikely to be pure muscle. Muscle weighs more than fat, but my guess is that he increased both size and strength (fat and muscle), not uncommon for rookies going into the second year. However, my concerns with Martin go beyond JUST strength, as I see deficits in his footwork and he is sometimes slow off the snap.

If I had to predict, I'd guess he would land somewhere around the 50th best Tackle in the league by PFF metrics next season. That would be an improvement of about 25 spots. I am obviously just guessing, but it seems to me unlikely that Martin would go from the 76th worst tackle in football to the harder side to play (competition wise) to a top 20 tackle.

My concern is that we NEED a top 20 tackle to remain competitive and to make a push for the playoffs. Its not mandatory as some teams had spotty LT play last year and still made a playoff run, but a young QB like Tannehill could use some confidence from a solid Oline, and with Martin on the left side/blindside, it seems likely to me he will either be insufficient or he will require a boat load of help like he did last year. Neither of those scenarios makes Tannehill or our offense better.

Hopefully, Martin has a miraculous turn around this year. However, the smart money is probably on a marginal turn around. What we would hope to see is improvement every year for the first 4 or 5 years. Then a true analysis of whether he is an NFL player/starter is more appropriate. I am just not convinced he needs to be starting right now based on what we saw last season. He certainly needed competition, real competition to push him and to ensure our team has better Tackle play than we did last year.


Duane Brown made a nice jump in his second year. And just because someone adds weight by eating more doesn't mean they gained fat. Olympic swimmers eat like 5,000 calories a day. He has the frame that he could easily gain 10lbs of muscle or even gain 20 lbs of muscle and lose 10 lbs of fat in the process.
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dolphinologist


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

* My gut / feeling is about your stance on this particular subject. Not You. This is the element that has made this issue more than it is. I separate people from their opinions. They tell me E=MC2 ? I say Amen. When they say the earth is round ? I say Amen. You tell me water is wet ? I say amen. When you tell me the moon is made of cheese ? I say hell no. The person remains the same to me. But you seem to meld yourself to the opinion you have on this. So when my interpretation of your opinion does not match your intent, I end up being "wrong about you" to the point where it feels like a mischaracterization. I tell you over and over it's not you its the opinion, but yet here we are.

* My "gut feelings" come from here:
Left tackle play on this team has been bad since 2010. But from my perspective, your repeated assessment only involves 12 games of 2012. We all wanted to have competition for the position, but where we differ is that we wanted a veteran that could transition to the bench for depth if it came to that. When you want to trade up for Eric Fisher, it says to me that we are done with whoever was there last year. Just my interpretation.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
* My gut / feeling is about your stance on this particular subject. Not You. This is the element that has made this issue more than it is. I separate people from their opinions. They tell me E=MC2 ? I say Amen. When they say the earth is round ? I say Amen. You tell me water is wet ? I say amen. When you tell me the moon is made of cheese ? I say hell no. The person remains the same to me. But you seem to meld yourself to the opinion you have on this. So when my interpretation of your opinion does not match your intent, I end up being "wrong about you" to the point where it feels like a mischaracterization. I tell you over and over it's not you its the opinion, but yet here we are.



part of the problem is that I rarely have any idea what you are talking about when it comes to separating people from opinions. I've always said you characterized me as wanting Martin to fail, and I've always said it isn't true. You just proved my point in your first post in this thread. Your gut and feelings tell you something that is not supported in or by anything I've ever typed. That was, is and always has been my frustration. You've made me out to be someone who WANTS Martin to be cut. That aint the case, bro. I don't hate him. I've been frustrated by his poor play and the fact that you and others have minimized how poor the play was until recently.

dolphinologist wrote:

* My "gut feelings" come from here:
Left tackle play on this team has been bad since 2010. But from my perspective, your repeated assessment only involves 12 games of 2012. We all wanted to have competition for the position, but where we differ is that we wanted a veteran that could transition to the bench for depth if it came to that. When you want to trade up for Eric Fisher, it says to me that we are done with whoever was there last year. Just my interpretation.


I could care less where Martin plays or if he plays. I care that play is solid. His wasn't or hasn't been solid so far. My desire for Fisher came from the fact that he represents a fairly clear upgrade. I want solid play, and I want competition, tough competition, in places where we can't clearly upgrade. Martin was, arguably, the worst starter on the team last year. Whether he was slated to play on the left side or the right side is beside the point to me. We need better play than we got from him. You want to bring Jake Long into this conversation for some reason, that I can't understand. I just want better tackle play than we had last year. If Martin plays well enough to start, fine. But it was and is a clear jump in logic to me to assume he should be penciled in for any starter job. He should be penciled in too compete. When I said that initially, you IMMEDIATELY said I wanted him cut. Jump in logic to say the least. When he SHOWS ME that he is better, and worthy of starting, then he should start. He got handed a job last year before he was ready and it showed. This year the approach, in my opinion, should have been to bring in someone who represents an upgrade over his performance last year and let him (whoever it would be) compete with Martin for playing time.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Merc, I'm also hoping and wishing for Martin to be great, but I can only go off of what I've seen.......and so far it hasn't been good.

I hope he can be the answer at LT for us.
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My prediction is that he ends up being by PFF standards the 14th ranked LT in 2013.
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