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Which player's development are you most excited about?
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germ-x


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Chris Harris, but i still think his best fit in the NFL is playing nickel CB. I think it covers up his weaknesses and plays to his strengths. He is quick (not fast) is instinctual as well as physical and a very good tackler.

He made some very good plays on the outside last season, but even then i was never fully confident in him on the outside because he does lack the physical attributes. To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me to see Denver let Harris walk if Omar Bolden and Kayvon Webster show solid development (both of whom are probably more physically talented players) and Harris has another solid season and could get a hefty pay raise.
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paul-mac


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
I like Chris Harris, but i still think his best fit in the NFL is playing nickel CB. I think it covers up his weaknesses and plays to his strengths. He is quick (not fast) is instinctual as well as physical and a very good tackler.

He made some very good plays on the outside last season, but even then i was never fully confident in him on the outside because he does lack the physical attributes. To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me to see Denver let Harris walk if Omar Bolden and Kayvon Webster show solid development (both of whom are probably more physically talented players) and Harris has another solid season and could get a hefty pay raise.


Harris will be restricted next year so maybe we try get a first rounder for him. I think he's worth a lucrative extension though.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul-mac wrote:
germ-x wrote:
I like Chris Harris, but i still think his best fit in the NFL is playing nickel CB. I think it covers up his weaknesses and plays to his strengths. He is quick (not fast) is instinctual as well as physical and a very good tackler.

He made some very good plays on the outside last season, but even then i was never fully confident in him on the outside because he does lack the physical attributes. To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me to see Denver let Harris walk if Omar Bolden and Kayvon Webster show solid development (both of whom are probably more physically talented players) and Harris has another solid season and could get a hefty pay raise.


Harris will be restricted next year so maybe we try get a first rounder for him. I think he's worth a lucrative extension though.


Restricted? Like, will be be grounded? Did he do something wrong? I think Harris deserves his money. That dude is good.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Germ,

I actually agree with you about letting Harris walk. I personally hope we keep him because I really like him, and I think he does have the potential and skills to be a good CB wherever he plays. If Bolden or Webster show enough, though, I could see him leaving simply because of the $$ he may cost.
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Winder23


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Germ,

I actually agree with you about letting Harris walk. I personally hope we keep him because I really like him, and I think he does have the potential and skills to be a good CB wherever he plays. If Bolden or Webster show enough, though, I could see him leaving simply because of the $$ he may cost.
You don't let a player like Harris walk. Even if Webster and Bolden develop into good outside players, Harris can play the slot. Elway has shown that more than anything he likes alot of good cover guys on his teams, and isn't afraid to spend some money on the position. The only way Harris leaves is if he wants big money. From what I have heard and read he is a great guy who loves playing in Denver.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winder23 wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
Germ,

I actually agree with you about letting Harris walk. I personally hope we keep him because I really like him, and I think he does have the potential and skills to be a good CB wherever he plays. If Bolden or Webster show enough, though, I could see him leaving simply because of the $$ he may cost.
You don't let a player like Harris walk. Even if Webster and Bolden develop into good outside players, Harris can play the slot. Elway has shown that more than anything he likes alot of good cover guys on his teams, and isn't afraid to spend some money on the position. The only way Harris leaves is if he wants big money. From what I have heard and read he is a great guy who loves playing in Denver.


I mean I definitely think he has a role on the team going foreward and is a terrific young player, but let's be real, if we have guys who can mimic his production and don't require us to break the bank, do you honestly think we're going to pay him?

There's gonna be some big cash thrown around here soon, not everyone can get paid.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Winder23 wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
Germ,

I actually agree with you about letting Harris walk. I personally hope we keep him because I really like him, and I think he does have the potential and skills to be a good CB wherever he plays. If Bolden or Webster show enough, though, I could see him leaving simply because of the $$ he may cost.
You don't let a player like Harris walk. Even if Webster and Bolden develop into good outside players, Harris can play the slot. Elway has shown that more than anything he likes alot of good cover guys on his teams, and isn't afraid to spend some money on the position. The only way Harris leaves is if he wants big money. From what I have heard and read he is a great guy who loves playing in Denver.


I mean I definitely think he has a role on the team going foreward and is a terrific young player, but let's be real, if we have guys who can mimic his production and don't require us to break the bank, do you honestly think we're going to pay him?

There's gonna be some big cash thrown around here soon, not everyone can get paid.


Good timing on that point. It was addressed just today in the DP.


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23345953/broncos-prepare-2013-season-an-eye-2014-roster
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paul-mac


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can have another year of cheap Chris Harris. Just tender him.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julius Thomas apparently had a good day today. I'm definitely interested to see what he brings to the table. He was having a good TC two years ago before he got injured, and then he never really recovered from that injury. Now that he's 100% and Dreessen is out with a knee injury till TC, should be interesting to see what Thomas can do.

His physical skills would present such a huge mismatch on the field that if he really matured, Denver's offense would be absolutely unstoppable.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
Julius Thomas apparently had a good day today. I'm definitely interested to see what he brings to the table. He was having a good TC two years ago before he got injured, and then he never really recovered from that injury. Now that he's 100% and Dreessen is out with a knee injury till TC, should be interesting to see what Thomas can do.

His physical skills would present such a huge mismatch on the field that if he really matured, Denver's offense would be absolutely unstoppable.

It should get interesting.

My biggest concern with him from day 1 was if he could ever understand the NFL playbook. After never playing football past HS, he was taking a huge step in terms of how intricate defenses play and how advanced offenses are.

All speculation has been that hes really "getting" the playpook this year. That was his biggest step. His athleticism is there. Now lets see if he can put it all together. Having a QB like Peyton can only help his development too.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Nate Irving's development is intriguing. Is it me, or does he look bigger in the photos they are showing for OTA's?
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
broncos67 wrote:
Julius Thomas apparently had a good day today. I'm definitely interested to see what he brings to the table. He was having a good TC two years ago before he got injured, and then he never really recovered from that injury. Now that he's 100% and Dreessen is out with a knee injury till TC, should be interesting to see what Thomas can do.

His physical skills would present such a huge mismatch on the field that if he really matured, Denver's offense would be absolutely unstoppable.

It should get interesting.

My biggest concern with him from day 1 was if he could ever understand the NFL playbook. After never playing football past HS, he was taking a huge step in terms of how intricate defenses play and how advanced offenses are.

All speculation has been that hes really "getting" the playpook this year. That was his biggest step. His athleticism is there. Now lets see if he can put it all together. Having a QB like Peyton can only help his development too.


A lot of basketball players look good catching balls in shorts. Julius Thomas always has. I worry about the physical side of the game for him. Put pads on him, is he used to getting smacked around or is he completely thrown off? You knew coming out of college based on his basketball career a guy like Jimmy Graham embraced that contact. He was the most physical player in NCAA hoops before making the transition to football, so you knew he could handle that part of the transition. Idk about Thomas, but man I hope he can becomes something, what a weapon we'd have in him.
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AntiSuperstar


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
It sure seems like there's an outright dogging of Chris Harris in this thread which is pretty surprising to me.


More like there's a bunch of posters making idiotic overreactions instead of having realistic perspectives. Your post just added to the total. There's nothing even close to "dogging" of Chris Harris. Disputing something as obviously wrong as an implication that Chris Harris was one of the top "lockdown" corners, is hardly dogging. It's merely stating what should be obvious to the ignorant masses.

broncos67 wrote:
Also, Chris Harris played S in college, so I guess that explains why he wasn't covering larger WRs.


Chris Harris played Safety about 6 games for Kansas. He was a cornerback the majority of his time there.

broncos67 wrote:
His quickness and technical ability should never be up for debate, because frankly he's one of the best in the league at this time handling the quicker WRs and being physical with the ones he covers.


You're the first one to bring up "technical ability" so I don't know why you feel the need to say no one should question something when in fact, no one has questioned that thing. His quickness certainly should be questioned, as I would say he's roughly average there, maybe slightly better. Outside of a few guys like Brandon Browner, most cornerbacks are super quick players, I wouldn't say Chris Harris is particularly a stand out in that regard. But again, that requires actually watching a player play. Some people are content to bring up names like Brandon Flowers and somehow aren't laughing at the gigantic gap in athletic ability that they apparently can't see.

elliot878 wrote:
I've never claimed that Chris Harris is an elite athlete.


Indeed you claimed something much worse.

elliot878 wrote:
I've said that he is approaching the elite group of cornerbacks in this league, and may already be there. What I'm trying to show you is that almost every number 1 corner is mismatched in the size/speed department against top receivers. The great corners in this league are not that because of having comparable size/speed combos to these receivers, they make up for that lack of athleticism by being smart, knowing their opponent, and their limitations.


Here we go with more stupidity. I said Chris Harris doesn't have the size/athleticism to cover big athletic receivers. Notice the slash. Or notice the other way I put it when used the word combination. It's a freaking combination. That does not mean that to cover a 6'4 225 pound wide receiver you have to be 6'4 225. In fact what it usually means is you have to be quicker than the other player while having just enough size(which is a combination of height, weight, arm length etc., to not be thrown aside or beaten for jump balls every play etc. Saying that it requires a certain level of athleticism to be able to successfully cover receivers by the way is not the same as saying it requires exactly the same amount of athleticism or more. It's simply saying that certain players have such gigantic physical disadvantages that it limits their ability to match up to great players. Whether Darrelle Revis is an equal athlete to AJ Green is irrelevant, Darrelle Revis is still a far more physically capable, far less limited player than Chris Harris is. This is not hard to understand.

Also boiling "athleticism" down to 40 times is pointless and useless. Especially when cornerback play, back to football 101, is primarily about backpedalling and changing direction in short spaces quickly, neither of which have anything at all to do with 40 time and even recovery speed doesn't involve getting in a track stance and taking off at a precise time in reaction to an expected whistle blow, but maybe that's too difficult for you to think about. I'm not even going to argue with you on that though, if you think 40 times show much with regard to athleticism you're just ignorant and I'll leave it at that. I'm sure in your mind this type of garbage "analysis" of comparing player's heights and 40 times, is what constitutes "proof." I continue to say to that kind of garbage, that "proof" isn't something I would lower myself to attempt to establish here.

Most of the corners you listed by the way are longer than Chris Harris. A good handful of them are quicker off their feet, a trait where Harris just frankly isn't very good(pretty much all but the big ones, and some of those guys like Peterson are quick off their feet too). Most are faster. A few are stronger. Not one of them is clearly a worse athlete than Chris Harris and the only ones who aren't much better are declining players like Charles Woodson. You're listing guys like Darrelle Revis, Brandon Flowers, Joe Haden, those guys are far more nimble and athletic than Chris Harris. That's just absurd that you're apparently oblivious to that.

elliot878 wrote:
Chris Harris understands his game, understands his limitations, and compensates for them whether it be by giving a step to the guy who runs deep a lot or by jamming a faster/quicker guy. He's a great tackler, quick closer, shows good anticipation, and doesn't gamble a lot, so he's not making mistakes that turn into big plays.


The bolded part is all true(except saying "good" anticipation, that's an understatement), but too bad cornerback play goes beyond "not making mistakes that turn into big plays." Those short and medium plays that result in first downs are important too. Also it's who you're not giving up big plays against that also counts.

Some things Chris Harris cannot compensate for. You mentioned jamming. You won't find a single game in Chris Harris' career where you will se him successfully jamming a big and athletic receiver. Guys like Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, etc., there are a million of them who Chris Harris doesn't cover, Chris Harris has zero ability to jam those guys. He doesn't have a big enough body, he can't outrun any of them, he's at a severe disadvantage length wise, and he's not quick enough off his feet to get many knock aways either. Toughness and technique have nothing to do with it. When a guy is faster than you and big enough to shrug off contact easily for the most part, forget about jamming. What you will see Chris Harris having a better chance at is against big guys who can't get off the ball fast. So sure, Anquan Boldin he will do well against. That's because Anquan Boldin can't run.

elliot878 wrote:
As 67 said, he's also a technician, his footwork is smooth, and that is a big thing in making up for the athleticism that he lacks compared to the receivers he faces (yea, even number 2's). No he doesn't have the size, or length or athleticism that the top receivers have, but the majority of corners covering number one receivers don't either.


I had to laugh at the bolded. 99% of cornerbacks have smooth feet. What the hell are you talking about? Outside of Brandon Browner and maybe Charles Woodson(who's more of a hybrid Safety anyway), and maybe a couple of others, all cornerbacks have smooth feet. That's expected from the position. That literally says nothing. Most cornerbacks have smooth feet and most cornerbacks aren't very good.

elliot878 wrote:
These are all attributes that Chris Harris has that we see in other top corners around the league.


Your description of Chris Harris could probably been made about the likes of Dunta Robinson for example, but no one's confusing him with a top corner. Top corners have much more attributes than the ones you have described from Chris Harris. Are you seriously implying Chris Harris has similar attributes to Haden, Revis, Webb, Flowers, Sherman, whoever? Just lol.

elliot878 wrote:
Most corners don't have Patrick Peterson level recovery speed or the type of athleticism that the best receivers possess.


Many corners have excellent receovery speed. Far better than Chris Harris. I can think of a couple of Tight Ends that have better recovery speed than Chris Harris.

elliot878 wrote:
They make up for it with the attributes I've gone over, many of which Chris Harris has.


No, they "make up for it" usually with some combination of quickness, length(which Harris has none of), or recovery speed, none of which Harris is anything more than average at(and quite frankly the only one he might not be below average at is quickness).
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, so what does Harris do well Anti? Based on what you said, he's not quick, no size, not athletic, lack of compensating speed....jeez does he do anything right? Harris played outside and inside last year, he was successful doing so and showed good versatility. No, he didn't cover Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, et al...but he's been a very important player to us over the past few years

And please stop with the "requires watching a player play." We all watch the Broncos every week, you know you aren't talking to a bunch of 5 year olds on the site.
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hibdib31


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excited to see how Nate Irving will capitalize on his opportunity to take the starting MLB job (despite its importance in Del Rio's scheme this year).

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23358324/nate-irving-wants-keep-himself-middle-broncos-defense?source=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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