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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I think what we are getting at here is that he is struggling to pick up some of the defensive concepts?

Academic misconduct is not really something that is going to get me too riled up over a football player. Cheating is Cheating, but I would rather someone I draft to have been cheating to try and stay eligible as opposed to have a DUI or PED use or Drug use.

It is just hard watching a guy who is so far the second best cover guy I have seen on this team on an NFL field being basically black-balled to the bench for reasons unknown.

It feels like to me that either the staff did not do a good enough job evaluating guys like Cason before they bought them in, did not do enough work evaluating some of the guys on our current roster before they looked for replacements or just bought in guys because they were familiar with them.

The last thing anybody who is a fan of this team should want is a lessor player stepping onto the football field because they are a better "locker-room leader".

Leaders are great and every team needs them, but you do not sacrifice on field ability to play a "leader".
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LuckyNumber11


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Posts: 5432
Location: Nebraska
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
So I think what we are getting at here is that he is struggling to pick up some of the defensive concepts?

Academic misconduct is not really something that is going to get me too riled up over a football player. Cheating is Cheating, but I would rather someone I draft to have been cheating to try and stay eligible as opposed to have a DUI or PED use or Drug use.

It is just hard watching a guy who is so far the second best cover guy I have seen on this team on an NFL field being basically black-balled to the bench for reasons unknown.

It feels like to me that either the staff did not do a good enough job evaluating guys like Cason before they bought them in, did not do enough work evaluating some of the guys on our current roster before they looked for replacements or just bought in guys because they were familiar with them.

The last thing anybody who is a fan of this team should want is a lessor player stepping onto the football field because they are a better "locker-room leader".

Leaders are great and every team needs them, but you do not sacrifice on field ability to play a "leader".


As far as the "leader" idea goes I think that they proved they won't do that by cutting Adrain. And your guess is as good as mine as to why he's not playing when I saw his wonderlic I guessed it was because he couldn't process the defensive concepts but idk maybe Bowles can get ahold of him better than Horton but what do I know
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Yibbyl


Joined: 21 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
So I think what we are getting at here is that he is struggling to pick up some of the defensive concepts?

Academic misconduct is not really something that is going to get me too riled up over a football player. Cheating is Cheating, but I would rather someone I draft to have been cheating to try and stay eligible as opposed to have a DUI or PED use or Drug use.

It is just hard watching a guy who is so far the second best cover guy I have seen on this team on an NFL field being basically black-balled to the bench for reasons unknown.

It feels like to me that either the staff did not do a good enough job evaluating guys like Cason before they bought them in, did not do enough work evaluating some of the guys on our current roster before they looked for replacements or just bought in guys because they were familiar with them.

The last thing anybody who is a fan of this team should want is a lessor player stepping onto the football field because they are a better "locker-room leader".

Leaders are great and every team needs them, but you do not sacrifice on field ability to play a "leader".

I'm trying to withhold any bias I may have in favor of Fleming, who I liked so much, that I was still pretty happy that he at least went to my 2nd favorite team instead of to the Bills. If it really is a case where Fleming is struggling with the mental aspect of playing in the backfield at the NFL level, maybe week 9 is the game to watch, Khodder. You did say he only got one snap after that. You mentioned interest in re-watching the Bills game (week 6), was that the last time he got a significant number of snaps in one game or were there enough in week 9 to justify spending the time to evaluate him in that game instead? My thought is that if he was struggling to understand what was required of him, that he would appear to have taken a step or two backwards if/as a more complex D got utilized over the season or that he wouldn't have shown any improvement at all if the scheme stayed relatively the same, which would signify to me that it is all about athleticism with him. I sure hope he doesn't turn into a bust. He really was my draft crush last year!
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yibbyl wrote:
I'm trying to withhold any bias I may have in favor of Fleming, who I liked so much, that I was still pretty happy that he at least went to my 2nd favorite team instead of to the Bills. If it really is a case where Fleming is struggling with the mental aspect of playing in the backfield at the NFL level, maybe week 9 is the game to watch, Khodder. You did say he only got one snap after that. You mentioned interest in re-watching the Bills game (week 6), was that the last time he got a significant number of snaps in one game or were there enough in week 9 to justify spending the time to evaluate him in that game instead? My thought is that if he was struggling to understand what was required of him, that he would appear to have taken a step or two backwards if/as a more complex D got utilized over the season or that he wouldn't have shown any improvement at all if the scheme stayed relatively the same, which would signify to me that it is all about athleticism with him. I sure hope he doesn't turn into a bust. He really was my draft crush last year!


He played 32 defensive snaps week nine. I am looking to watch that game and the Bills game in the near future to have a look.

I don't think the complexity of the coverage schemes got any more difficult. He was only playing outside corner (As opposed to Gay who was starting outside then moving into the slot, and Peterson who followed receivers at times), and really the only areas he played was Man to Man, Cover 2 Zone and Cover 3 zone.

Those were pretty much the three staple coverages of Horton last season.

And if his coverage stayed the same, then he would have been one of our best overall corners last season.

The most logical conclusion I can come to is that Fleming player when Toler was hurt and did not when he was not.

Games both Toler and Fleming played in;

Week 2 - Fleming 78 Def Snaps, Toler 0
Week 3 - Fleming 48 Def Snaps, Toler 2
Week 4 - Fleming 12 Def Snaps, Toler 44
Week 5 - Fleming 1 Def Snaps, Toler 47
Week 6 - Fleming 58 Def Snaps, Toler 0

These games Toler was still recovering from his injury and mostly playing ST's. Then he got into the D lineup week 4, Fleming dropped out. Toler did his hammy week 5 (In giving up his only TD of the year) then Fleming played the next week.

Week 11 - Fleming 0 Def Snaps, Toler 40
Week 12 - Fleming 0 Def Snaps, Toler 24
Week 13 - Fleming 0 Def Snaps, Toler 13
Week 14 - Fleming 0 Def Snaps, Toler 27
Week 15 - Fleming 1 Def Snaps, Toler 55
Week 16 - Fleming 0 Def Snaps, Toler 17
Week 17 - Fleming 0 Def Snaps, Toler 32

This is where it gets interesting. Toler basically removed from the defense altogether. Toler healthy essentially playing the snaps Fleming was.

This is every game post BYE. I can understand why this was done. Toler was a better overall corner last season than Fleming was so a healthy Toler meant Fleming on the bench because they were competing for the same spot.

Neither played much slot corner at all. That was William Gay and on the odd 4 CB occasion Mike Adams come onto the field. Toler and Fleming basically combined for the 570 snaps our slot corners player last season, in reality it probably should have been Toler/Fleming starting and combining for the 1000 snaps William Gay played and Gay playing the 570 odd of the slot CB snaps, but that is neither here nor there.

Long story short. Toler and Fleming were basically the 3rd and 4th corners. Both only played outside corner so it limited situations where they were used and they were rarely if ever on the field together because Peterson had one outside corner spot locked down. When Toler was not available or not healthy Fleming played and when Toler was available he played.

We may just be reading too much into things here, but I really do hope that Fleming ends up getting a good crack at things this season, he deserves it.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to prove that I am not alone in my Greg Toler Love;

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/best-cornerback-charting-stats-2012

Check out the ranking by success rate.

15ths in Yards/Pass allowed and 2nd in Success Rate.
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love2theOLINE


Joined: 14 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Just to prove that I am not alone in my Greg Toler Love;

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/best-cornerback-charting-stats-2012

Check out the ranking by success rate.

15ths in Yards/Pass allowed and 2nd in Success Rate.


I always loved Toler too. Hopefully Flemming pans out otherwise I indrstand letting go Whiz a little more
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/worst-cornerback-charting-stats-2012

Notice the rank of Antonie Cason. 41st in YPA, 85th in Success Rate, he allowed 60% of the balls thrown his way to be caught; 60 catches on 97 targets.
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