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rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clarkfn2284 wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
clarkfn2284 wrote:
Boldin absolutely was brought to make this offense better. Sure he makes the roster stronger and no, I didnt expect the overall scheme to change, but Boldin was going to get his looks as is VD so by default those will come from somewhere and we have no reason to believe it was going to be from Crabtrees looks. I have clearly stated that before. Boldin was not brought in because he was a good option to battle it out for the 2nd WR position......he was brought in because he is a threat and he takes the pressure off of Crabtree to have to be the guy all the time. Crabs was targeted more and had more catches by an exponential amount. Boldin provides a real red zone threat who can block and play physical something that Mario Manningham, KW, Jenkins, Lockette, Ginn and now Patton are not.

It's not unrealistic to think that Boldin was brought in to have an impact. He isnt a low level move like acquiring a Ted Ginn was. He is an impact player still in his prime. You dont trade for an impact guy for them to not be an integral part of the offense.

I also dont see anyone saying the Niners are going to start putting up 40 burgers left and right now that Boldin is there. What I hear people saying is that Boldin will make the offense more efficient in areas in which they struggled. Red Zone effeciency and 3rd down effeciency.

I find it odd that you say that people expect too much with the acquisition of Boldin, yet you yourself seem to have lofty expectations for an offense who just lost their main passing weapon.

I expect this offense to take a step back early on, but I think they will develop by mid season into a solid unit. I think Kaep is that good and I think that the run game is that effective, but I would expect the pass game to take a while to catch up.



A step back from our playoff offense, yes. But comparable to last year's week 1 offense in many ways. So in that sense, it's not exactly a step back, because even with the addition of Boldin, I think we would have reverted to that anyway. As I was saying, Boldin or no Boldin, Crabtree or no Crabtree, I only expected our offense to be marginally better early on, not because of Crabtree's injury, but by design, because of Harbaugh's approach.

I feel you and I aren't that far in what we're saying, but that's not the case of most fans, it seems. I just don't see the big step back many are seeing. The offense will be worse than many expected before Crabtree's injury. It is a step back, but not a big one in relation to last year's offense and what it was likely to be again this year.



I think we mostly agree on that........I just think it is highly possible that this offense takes a while to get going. Maybe it looks more similar to the Alex led offense as opposed to a Kaep led offense with more time and a full offseason to gel.

The team and staff are too good for the team to fail, so they will continue to win, but its going to be a bit more of a challenge and might be a little more ugly til that chemistry is found with some other options.



I think Harbaugh likes winning ugly. It would have been easy to open it up and score more in certain circumstances, last year, but he prefered to run more. Running has its benefits. Kills the clock, reduces the hits your quarterback takes, and generally makes your OL really excited. That's why we have a tendancy to go conservative when we have a 10 points lead, instead of attacking and forging a bigger lead. I don't think any amount of offensive weapons would change that for Harbaugh. That's how he was raised. That's what his dad taught him (who, as a coach, often ran 70% of the time). That's what his college coach taught him. That's what he was in the pros as well. He led run-heavy offenses, where his job was to make key plays, not to make every play, à la Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. I don't think having Boldin, Crabtree, VD, add every other receiving option we can conceivably have, I don't think all that would change the fundamental philosophy of Jim Harbaugh. We all know we can have an explosive offense. And Kap is an explosive weapon himself. So I believe Harbaugh will just keep doing what he thinks is the right way to operate an offense, and only unleash Kap and the rest of our weapons when the situation calls for it (like the second half of the superbowl). Yes, that philosophy has come and bit us in the arse several times, but without it, chances are we wouldn't have made the playoffs at all.

Remember 2011... we went 13-3 with way less at the WR position. We had Brett Swain and Joe Hastings in the line-up. If we were able to do that, we can certainly manage to play well and win games with Boldin/Mario/KW/AJJ/QP/RL/etc.
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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
I simply don't buy the "Boldin was supposed to take us to the next level" thing.


Couldn't disagree more with this statement. A second target at the WR position was our single biggest offensive need. And Boldin was the answer to that need.

Every off season you look at your team and ask "where do we need to get better to take another step forward?" Then you go out and try to fill that need. That's what we did. Nothing was sadder than seeing our SB dreams go down the drain when we forced the ball to Crabs on three straight plays because we didn't have another strong option. For those three plays alone, Boldin could have been the difference between winning another SB and sitting here and talking about how we need to get better to win it all this time around.

Seems to me you're simply confusing changing our offensive philosphy, which we surely won't do, with being more successful doing what what we want to do, which we just as surely would have been able to do with BOTH Ctrabs and Boldin on the field.
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clarkfn2284


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
clarkfn2284 wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
clarkfn2284 wrote:
Boldin absolutely was brought to make this offense better. Sure he makes the roster stronger and no, I didnt expect the overall scheme to change, but Boldin was going to get his looks as is VD so by default those will come from somewhere and we have no reason to believe it was going to be from Crabtrees looks. I have clearly stated that before. Boldin was not brought in because he was a good option to battle it out for the 2nd WR position......he was brought in because he is a threat and he takes the pressure off of Crabtree to have to be the guy all the time. Crabs was targeted more and had more catches by an exponential amount. Boldin provides a real red zone threat who can block and play physical something that Mario Manningham, KW, Jenkins, Lockette, Ginn and now Patton are not.

It's not unrealistic to think that Boldin was brought in to have an impact. He isnt a low level move like acquiring a Ted Ginn was. He is an impact player still in his prime. You dont trade for an impact guy for them to not be an integral part of the offense.

I also dont see anyone saying the Niners are going to start putting up 40 burgers left and right now that Boldin is there. What I hear people saying is that Boldin will make the offense more efficient in areas in which they struggled. Red Zone effeciency and 3rd down effeciency.

I find it odd that you say that people expect too much with the acquisition of Boldin, yet you yourself seem to have lofty expectations for an offense who just lost their main passing weapon.

I expect this offense to take a step back early on, but I think they will develop by mid season into a solid unit. I think Kaep is that good and I think that the run game is that effective, but I would expect the pass game to take a while to catch up.



A step back from our playoff offense, yes. But comparable to last year's week 1 offense in many ways. So in that sense, it's not exactly a step back, because even with the addition of Boldin, I think we would have reverted to that anyway. As I was saying, Boldin or no Boldin, Crabtree or no Crabtree, I only expected our offense to be marginally better early on, not because of Crabtree's injury, but by design, because of Harbaugh's approach.

I feel you and I aren't that far in what we're saying, but that's not the case of most fans, it seems. I just don't see the big step back many are seeing. The offense will be worse than many expected before Crabtree's injury. It is a step back, but not a big one in relation to last year's offense and what it was likely to be again this year.



I think we mostly agree on that........I just think it is highly possible that this offense takes a while to get going. Maybe it looks more similar to the Alex led offense as opposed to a Kaep led offense with more time and a full offseason to gel.

The team and staff are too good for the team to fail, so they will continue to win, but its going to be a bit more of a challenge and might be a little more ugly til that chemistry is found with some other options.



I think Harbaugh likes winning ugly. It would have been easy to open it up and score more in certain circumstances, last year, but he prefered to run more. Running has its benefits. Kills the clock, reduces the hits your quarterback takes, and generally makes your OL really excited. That's why we have a tendancy to go conservative when we have a 10 points lead, instead of attacking and forging a bigger lead. I don't think any amount of offensive weapons would change that for Harbaugh. That's how he was raised. That's what his dad taught him (who, as a coach, often ran 70% of the time). That's what his college coach taught him. That's what he was in the pros as well. He led run-heavy offenses, where his job was to make key plays, not to make every play, à la Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. I don't think having Boldin, Crabtree, VD, add every other receiving option we can conceivably have, I don't think all that would change the fundamental philosophy of Jim Harbaugh. We all know we can have an explosive offense. And Kap is an explosive weapon himself. So I believe Harbaugh will just keep doing what he thinks is the right way to operate an offense, and only unleash Kap and the rest of our weapons when the situation calls for it (like the second half of the superbowl). Yes, that philosophy has come and bit us in the arse several times, but without it, chances are we wouldn't have made the playoffs at all.

Remember 2011... we went 13-3 with way less at the WR position. We had Brett Swain and Joe Hastings in the line-up. If we were able to do that, we can certainly manage to play well and win games with Boldin/Mario/KW/AJJ/QP/RL/etc.


I 100 % agree with the philosophy on offense not changing. I just think that the defense isnt going to be as good and the Niners will need to score more on offense and be more effective in the air more often then was needed the past couple of seasons.

The fact remains that the last 2 years the Niners have been basically 1 play away from a Super Bowl birth and 1 play away from the 6th ring and in both cases they lacked the amount of playmakers necessary to make that play. Thats why the Boldin/Crabs combo is so important to me.

I have the same view of it as big9erfan does. A redzone target like Boldin makes the difference in how many games last season including the biggest one of them all.

Add to all of this that the West looks to be even closer then years past. The Hawks are obviously the main competiton. THe NFC is a power house as well from GB, SEA, NYG, WSH, ATL, as main players and then teams like CHI, TB, MINN, PHI, DAL, all on the cusp. It is going to take a stellar season to win the division because it could get real log jammed in the wild card hunt.

Crabtree out hurts this team as a whole, but this team is filled with talent and leadership that should help it continue to be dominant.
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okie dokie!!! He only had 1200 rec yards at 40, but he clearly isnt as good as it appears.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
I simply don't buy the "Boldin was supposed to take us to the next level" thing.


Couldn't disagree more with this statement. A second target at the WR position was our single biggest offensive need. And Boldin was the answer to that need.

Every off season you look at your team and ask "where do we need to get better to take another step forward?" Then you go out and try to fill that need. That's what we did. Nothing was sadder than seeing our SB dreams go down the drain when we forced the ball to Crabs on three straight plays because we didn't have another strong option. For those three plays alone, Boldin could have been the difference between winning another SB and sitting here and talking about how we need to get better to win it all this time around.

Seems to me you're simply confusing changing our offensive philosphy, which we surely won't do, with being more successful doing what what we want to do, which we just as surely would have been able to do with BOTH Ctrabs and Boldin on the field.



That's what I see as an incremental improvement, or a marginal improvement now that Crabtree is hurt. Getting Boldin won't change our offense or take it to the next level. It will just be more of the same, but just more of that more of the same, since we'll be more efficient. Now, since Crabtree is injured, instead of more of more of the same, it will only be more of the same, or pretty much what we had last year. I don't know what you're disagreeing with.
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NcFinest9erFan


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Crabtree had the stitches removed from his torn right Achilles' tendon Monday.
Crabtree underwent surgery to repair his full tear on May 22. Now that the stitches are out, he can begin the long rehab process. In a best-case scenario for the 49ers, Crabtree will contribute in the final month of the regular season.

roto.

one step closer...
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NcFinest9erFan wrote:
Michael Crabtree had the stitches removed from his torn right Achilles' tendon Monday.
Crabtree underwent surgery to repair his full tear on May 22. Now that the stitches are out, he can begin the long rehab process. In a best-case scenario for the 49ers, Crabtree will contribute in the final month of the regular season.

roto.

one step closer...


Yeah. Don't have a link but I read more about the injury today than when it happened. It was a complete tear, not a partial tear like the one Suggs had that allowed him to play a few months later. The doctor being quoted said that repairing that kind of injury is hard because the ends of the tear are like mini-mops and each of the little ends needs to be sewed back. Also, they have to guess at how much tension to leave in it as they sew it back together again. This used to be a career ending injury, but the procedure and the rehab process has gotten a lot better. Still, we should expect to be patient with this.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
NcFinest9erFan wrote:
Michael Crabtree had the stitches removed from his torn right Achilles' tendon Monday.
Crabtree underwent surgery to repair his full tear on May 22. Now that the stitches are out, he can begin the long rehab process. In a best-case scenario for the 49ers, Crabtree will contribute in the final month of the regular season.

roto.

one step closer...


Yeah. Don't have a link but I read more about the injury today than when it happened. It was a complete tear, not a partial tear like the one Suggs had that allowed him to play a few months later. The doctor being quoted said that repairing that kind of injury is hard because the ends of the tear are like mini-mops and each of the little ends needs to be sewed back. Also, they have to guess at how much tension to leave in it as they sew it back together again. This used to be a career ending injury, but the procedure and the rehab process has gotten a lot better. Still, we should expect to be patient with this.



A 100% Crabtree next year is better than a 75% Crabtree this year, 85% next year, 90% the following year, etc. I hope our staff will do what's right for him and us in the long run.
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Gore Whore 21


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
NcFinest9erFan wrote:
Michael Crabtree had the stitches removed from his torn right Achilles' tendon Monday.
Crabtree underwent surgery to repair his full tear on May 22. Now that the stitches are out, he can begin the long rehab process. In a best-case scenario for the 49ers, Crabtree will contribute in the final month of the regular season.

roto.

one step closer...


Yeah. Don't have a link but I read more about the injury today than when it happened. It was a complete tear, not a partial tear like the one Suggs had that allowed him to play a few months later. The doctor being quoted said that repairing that kind of injury is hard because the ends of the tear are like mini-mops and each of the little ends needs to be sewed back. Also, they have to guess at how much tension to leave in it as they sew it back together again. This used to be a career ending injury, but the procedure and the rehab process has gotten a lot better. Still, we should expect to be patient with this.



A 100% Crabtree next year is better than a 75% Crabtree this year, 85% next year, 90% the following year, etc. I hope our staff will do what's right for him and us in the long run.


I agree. If we don't have something figured out as a receiving option by the time Crabs is ready to come back, we are in trouble anyway. Best case scenario somebody will step up and help to downgrade the loss of Crabtree. My money is on Patton.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
NcFinest9erFan wrote:
Michael Crabtree had the stitches removed from his torn right Achilles' tendon Monday.
Crabtree underwent surgery to repair his full tear on May 22. Now that the stitches are out, he can begin the long rehab process. In a best-case scenario for the 49ers, Crabtree will contribute in the final month of the regular season.

roto.

one step closer...


Yeah. Don't have a link but I read more about the injury today than when it happened. It was a complete tear, not a partial tear like the one Suggs had that allowed him to play a few months later. The doctor being quoted said that repairing that kind of injury is hard because the ends of the tear are like mini-mops and each of the little ends needs to be sewed back. Also, they have to guess at how much tension to leave in it as they sew it back together again. This used to be a career ending injury, but the procedure and the rehab process has gotten a lot better. Still, we should expect to be patient with this.



A 100% Crabtree next year is better than a 75% Crabtree this year, 85% next year, 90% the following year, etc. I hope our staff will do what's right for him and us in the long run.


Yeah. I have no idea what the chances of re-injury are if he tries to play before it is 100%. If there's zero chance of re-injury and it wouldn't affect how long it takes for him to get back to 100%, but he's just a bit slower then let him play if that's still better than whoever else's place he's taking. But if there's any chance he could re-injure it then let it completely heal. By the time he could possibly see any PT we will have adjusted to having the other guys out there. On the other hand if he can make it back and contribute in the playoffs that would sure be nice.
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oldman9er


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be a bit surprised if Crabtree plays at all in 2013. I see him taking the Derrick Rose approach.

Like GW21 said, my money would be on Patton to step up and be a pleasant surprise. Assuming that Kaepernick is what many think, our offense will do enough, and the overall success will land us deep into the playoffs again.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you guys think it will do to his contract renewal (if there's one)?
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SoCalNiner


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
What do you guys think it will do to his contract renewal (if there's one)?


Possible injury clause?
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoCalNiner wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
What do you guys think it will do to his contract renewal (if there's one)?


Possible injury clause?



You mean, an opt out clause, like Peyton had last year? Or de-escalators tied to performance and/or games played, like we did with Ahmad Brooks last year?

I was thinking more in terms of numbers. Would he still ask for 10+ per year, or is this driving down his asking price a little? I'm not sure Crabtree has the personality to go for the de-escalator clauses, like Brooks did. Brooks had a serious chip on his shoulder and was determined to prove his worth over and over again. I'm not sure Crabtree feels he has anything to prove. He'd rather have a firm offer with minimal fluff, and maximal guarantees. It's going to be a hard negotiation.
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48 1/2ers


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
SoCalNiner wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
What do you guys think it will do to his contract renewal (if there's one)?


Possible injury clause?



You mean, an opt out clause, like Peyton had last year? Or de-escalators tied to performance and/or games played, like we did with Ahmad Brooks last year?

I was thinking more in terms of numbers. Would he still ask for 10+ per year, or is this driving down his asking price a little? I'm not sure Crabtree has the personality to go for the de-escalator clauses, like Brooks did. Brooks had a serious chip on his shoulder and was determined to prove his worth over and over again. I'm not sure Crabtree feels he has anything to prove. He'd rather have a firm offer with minimal fluff, and maximal guarantees. It's going to be a hard negotiation.

I think he'll get something in between Stevie Johnson's 5yr 36m and Sydney Rice's 5yr 41m
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NINERFAN_4_LIFE


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:

A 100% Crabtree next year is better than a 75% Crabtree this year, 85% next year, 90% the following year, etc. I hope our staff will do what's right for him and us in the long run.


I agree 1000%. Especially after the broken foot that he played through in college that really hindered his quickness for a few years..

Im sure he will have some sort of escalators in his contract for yards catches tds etc.. seems to be the norm with the deals we hand out, one of the reasons players seem to be willing to sign for less, because they know they can still get paid if they play well.. more incentive for them, me likey
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