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Billy Spikes


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Video of the workouts:

http://www.boston.com/sports/video/?bctid=2399978015001&pconnect_name=102431
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Richter


Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Richter wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Richter wrote:
24isthelaw wrote:
Richter wrote:
Oh brother, can Jenkins be cut now? Wasting time and reps on him, when he can't get open anymore. Get the rookies involved ASAP.


I agree with you on principle (that we shouldn't waste time on Jenkins), but...

1) With Edelman, Boyce, Gronk, and Hernandez on the sideline, he's not exactly freezing people out.

2) It looks like there was a lot of ST work based on the tweets, and Jenkins was free to work with Brady while Dobson was playing on ST. Perhaps Jenkins' high workload was more of a function of availability than anything else.

Why is Dobson on special teams? He's the only guy right now that looks like a legit prospect to play outside and perform at a high level. I'd rather he get the extra work with Brady, because I think he'll be called upon to take a lot of snaps.


Every rookie works on special teams. It's been that way for the whole Belichick era. Whether it's coverage, return, PAT/FG whatever. I can't think of any rookie who wasn't involved early on.

Just part of the system. You have to figure we will see both Dobson and Boyce tried on both returns and coverage units. Other than Moss and Ochocinco, I can't remember a WR who didn't play some role in special teams. Welker and even Glenn worked on return units, Brown played on all units at one point or another, Patten was a backup on return and coverage etc.

But has there been a year where a rookie on the roster is the only guy on the roster in line to start at a certain position? They don't have other options, unless you think one of the mediocre veteran signings can actually make a splash. They gutted the receiving corps, and Dobson basically has to be the guy right away. I get the whole culture argument, but extraordinary circumstances trump culture, in my estimation. Relying on Jenkins is a mistake.


You should know Belichick well enough to know that Dobson isn't going to be handed a job. He will have to earn it. And if it takes him longer to develop than we hope, he will have to contribute on special teams.

How many rookies have been opening day starters? Regardless of need or how good they look in pre-season? Not many. If the season opened today, I bet Jenkins would be on the field for the first play. That doesn't mean he is going to make the team or start, but right now the rookies need to learn the core fundamentals of the team structure.

Chad Jackson wasn't handed a job over a geriatric Troy Brown or mediocrities like Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel. Taylor Price not only couldn't beat out crappy players for playing time, but he didn't do enough on special teams to warrant being a game day active and that was (IMO) a contributing factor to his release.

We all want Dobson to be ready for a heavy workload on opening day, but that's probably not going to be the case. Certainly, it hasn't been the case with young WR's or rookies in general. Belichick has proven time and time again he will go with a safe, reliable option over an unprepared, too green or otherwise risky but higher ceiling (or flat-out more talented) option.

The best thing Dobson, Boyce, Moe, Harrison et al can do to help their chances of being the big upgrade we'd like to see at WR is to guarantee themselves a game day active spot. And the best way to do that is prove to be valuable in as many ways as possible while they acclimate to being an NFL WR.

I'm not saying that he should be handed a job; if he can't play, he can't play. But given the current depth chart, he needs to be put in the best position possible, since the alternatives are borderline disastrous. You're arguing about what will happen, I'm saying what should happen. It's a big mistake to be wasting effort on a washed up, no legs scrub like Jenkins, when a guy like Dobson can earn that active spot by being good at his primary job.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:

I'm not saying that he should be handed a job; if he can't play, he can't play. But given the current depth chart, he needs to be put in the best position possible, since the alternatives are borderline disastrous. You're arguing about what will happen, I'm saying what should happen. It's a big mistake to be wasting effort on a washed up, no legs scrub like Jenkins, when a guy like Dobson can earn that active spot by being good at his primary job.


Borderline disastrous? I don't think so at all. They had very little at WR last year outside of Welker - who IMO is less of a downfield threat than Amendola - and the offense was phenomenal most of the year.

As for Jenkins vs. Dobson - I see no indication that Dobson isn't going to get tons of reps at WR nor that he is going to not get every chance possible to win a starting job. But he needs to know the core fundamentals of special teams and what the Pats expect from him in that area. There's plenty of time for him to do both.

If Jenkins is as bad as you make him out to be, he will be leapfrogged by many players by mid-August. So I see no reason to be even the slightest bit concerned that Dobson is spending some time learning ST right now.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Richter wrote:

I'm not saying that he should be handed a job; if he can't play, he can't play. But given the current depth chart, he needs to be put in the best position possible, since the alternatives are borderline disastrous. You're arguing about what will happen, I'm saying what should happen. It's a big mistake to be wasting effort on a washed up, no legs scrub like Jenkins, when a guy like Dobson can earn that active spot by being good at his primary job.


Borderline disastrous? I don't think so at all. They had very little at WR last year outside of Welker - who IMO is less of a downfield threat than Amendola - and the offense was phenomenal most of the year.

As for Jenkins vs. Dobson - I see no indication that Dobson isn't going to get tons of reps at WR nor that he is going to not get every chance possible to win a starting job. But he needs to know the core fundamentals of special teams and what the Pats expect from him in that area. There's plenty of time for him to do both.

If Jenkins is as bad as you make him out to be, he will be leapfrogged by many players by mid-August. So I see no reason to be even the slightest bit concerned that Dobson is spending some time learning ST right now.

It's not just about Dobson leapfrogging Jenkins (which I fully expect to happen, given the vast disparity in talent level between them), it's when we're into December and January, and the difference between winning and losing is the QB and receiver having the familiarity to trust the sight adjustment they both made, or to understand the dummy hand signal that fools the defense, or to simply have the timing and rhythm to make that play on third down when the action breaks down and they need to go to the scramble drill. Dobson could be building that with Brady right now, but instead, Jenkins is the one getting the extra reps. Maybe it doesn't matter in the long run, but I'd still rather see the rookie getting that extra work than a guy that shouldn't make the roster.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Richter wrote:

I'm not saying that he should be handed a job; if he can't play, he can't play. But given the current depth chart, he needs to be put in the best position possible, since the alternatives are borderline disastrous. You're arguing about what will happen, I'm saying what should happen. It's a big mistake to be wasting effort on a washed up, no legs scrub like Jenkins, when a guy like Dobson can earn that active spot by being good at his primary job.


Borderline disastrous? I don't think so at all. They had very little at WR last year outside of Welker - who IMO is less of a downfield threat than Amendola - and the offense was phenomenal most of the year.

As for Jenkins vs. Dobson - I see no indication that Dobson isn't going to get tons of reps at WR nor that he is going to not get every chance possible to win a starting job. But he needs to know the core fundamentals of special teams and what the Pats expect from him in that area. There's plenty of time for him to do both.

If Jenkins is as bad as you make him out to be, he will be leapfrogged by many players by mid-August. So I see no reason to be even the slightest bit concerned that Dobson is spending some time learning ST right now.

It's not just about Dobson leapfrogging Jenkins (which I fully expect to happen, given the vast disparity in talent level between them), it's when we're into December and January, and the difference between winning and losing is the QB and receiver having the familiarity to trust the sight adjustment they both made, or to understand the dummy hand signal that fools the defense, or to simply have the timing and rhythm to make that play on third down when the action breaks down and they need to go to the scramble drill. Dobson could be building that with Brady right now, but instead, Jenkins is the one getting the extra reps. Maybe it doesn't matter in the long run, but I'd still rather see the rookie getting that extra work than a guy that shouldn't make the roster.


I don't see anything suggesting Jenkins is getting "extra" reps at WR, merely that Dobson is getting reps at both WR and special teams. As Jenkins isn't going to contribute on special teams, he isn't involved in those unit drills.

I guess you're suggesting that Dobson doesn't get involved in special teams at all which seems kind of crazy this early in camp.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Richter wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Richter wrote:

I'm not saying that he should be handed a job; if he can't play, he can't play. But given the current depth chart, he needs to be put in the best position possible, since the alternatives are borderline disastrous. You're arguing about what will happen, I'm saying what should happen. It's a big mistake to be wasting effort on a washed up, no legs scrub like Jenkins, when a guy like Dobson can earn that active spot by being good at his primary job.


Borderline disastrous? I don't think so at all. They had very little at WR last year outside of Welker - who IMO is less of a downfield threat than Amendola - and the offense was phenomenal most of the year.

As for Jenkins vs. Dobson - I see no indication that Dobson isn't going to get tons of reps at WR nor that he is going to not get every chance possible to win a starting job. But he needs to know the core fundamentals of special teams and what the Pats expect from him in that area. There's plenty of time for him to do both.

If Jenkins is as bad as you make him out to be, he will be leapfrogged by many players by mid-August. So I see no reason to be even the slightest bit concerned that Dobson is spending some time learning ST right now.

It's not just about Dobson leapfrogging Jenkins (which I fully expect to happen, given the vast disparity in talent level between them), it's when we're into December and January, and the difference between winning and losing is the QB and receiver having the familiarity to trust the sight adjustment they both made, or to understand the dummy hand signal that fools the defense, or to simply have the timing and rhythm to make that play on third down when the action breaks down and they need to go to the scramble drill. Dobson could be building that with Brady right now, but instead, Jenkins is the one getting the extra reps. Maybe it doesn't matter in the long run, but I'd still rather see the rookie getting that extra work than a guy that shouldn't make the roster.


I don't see anything suggesting Jenkins is getting "extra" reps at WR, merely that Dobson is getting reps at both WR and special teams. As Jenkins isn't going to contribute on special teams, he isn't involved in those unit drills.

I guess you're suggesting that Dobson doesn't get involved in special teams at all which seems kind of crazy this early in camp.

So you totally missed how Jenkins was working with Brady while Dobson was off doing other things? And why does Jenkins get a pass from playing special teams? Oh, right, because he sucks and is incapable. Why exactly should Dobson have to contribute on special teams, anyway? They have multiple viable alternatives any potential role he'd play, while they don't really have any for his presumed position on offense, which is vastly more important than special teams.

And yes, this is pretty much the one area where I'll disagree vehemently with Belichick's philosophy when it comes to team building; special teams play is vastly less important than the other two phases of the game. You don't want to be terrible there, because it can get you burned, but being average is fine, and being great doesn't make you a top-tier team - it makes you at best the 2006 Bears, that trudged through a weak NFC field on the strength of their defense and Hester's returns, and then realized they didn't have a real offense once it was too late. Even their opening kick return score didn't matter in the Super Bowl, because they had Rex Grossman throwing to Bernard Berrian. The Pats don't have to worry about the quarterback leg of that equation, but I'd prefer they get a head start on avoiding the Berrian comparisons at the wide receiver position, especially with Gronkowski and Hernandez recovering from injuries.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:

So you totally missed how Jenkins was working with Brady while Dobson was off doing other things? And why does Jenkins get a pass from playing special teams? Oh, right, because he sucks and is incapable.


You're usually better at reading than that.

Quote:
I don't see anything suggesting Jenkins is getting "extra" reps at WR, merely that Dobson is getting reps at both WR and special teams. As Jenkins isn't going to contribute on special teams, he isn't involved in those unit drills.


Jenkins was working with Brady while the special teams units were doing drills. We have no idea how many reps each guy got during the WR-specific portion of the drills, but Jenkins and Amendola seemed to be the only WR's who didn't take part in special teams drills. I don't see those as "extra" reps.

There's absolutely nothing in the notes quoted here that indicates that Jenkins is getting reps at the expense of Dobson or that Dobson isn't getting a heavy workload at WR. All we know is that when the majority of the team moves on to special teams drills, Dobson goes with the rest of the WR's as is normal and Jenkins stays behind.

I don't really see what the issue here is other than you hate Jenkins' presence on the roster and you feel that young WR"s being able to play ST is a waste

Quote:
Why exactly should Dobson have to contribute on special teams, anyway? They have multiple viable alternatives any potential role he'd play, while they don't really have any for his presumed position on offense, which is vastly more important than special teams.


So what if Dobson can't acclimate to the WR portion of the game by September? Being good (or useful) at ST helps him get on the 46 man game day roster. So if - by some horror - Jenkins wins the starting spot but breaks his leg in the 2nd quarter of a game, Dobson will get a chance to shine. Otherwise, that chance is going to go to Edelman or Moe or someone who can contribute other than at purely WR.

Your fear here, or frustration, or whatever it is seems surprisingly irrational. Pinning our hopes for the offense on the back of a WR who probably needs a full year before becoming a legitimately solid starting WR seems like a bad idea.

I see his work on special teams right now as nothing more than an orientation and a chance to show he can and is willing to do other things to help the team. Whether it's helping field an onside kick, or being a backup returner, or (less likely) on coverage units, those things do matter. More than that, I don't like the idea of Dobson being the only rookie who is told he is exempt from special teams work.

Now, if we're sitting here in late August and Dobson is seeing 3rd team reps in every preseason game and Jenkins is Brady's #1 target, I will share your concern. But from July-September (or December/January in your hypothetical), Dobson and Boyce are both going to get a ton of balls thrown to them from Brady and Mallett. If they can't develop that chemistry in that period, while also chipping in on special teams drills, they're never going to get it anyway.

Lastly, IMO - and I guess you differ here - I like Belichick's approach of making every rookie try different roles and work their way into their spot slowly. I'm glad he's not implicitly saying "Hey Dobson, we need you more than we need Moe at WR, so you don't play ST." The idea that every rookie and young player, regardless of roster "need" or draft status, needs to prove themselves is important. I think those intangibles are every bit as important as the chemistry you think Dobson might be losing out on developing with Brady. I don't think there's anything less Belichickian than treating a guy as special or as an exception because he is 'needed'.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Richter wrote:

So you totally missed how Jenkins was working with Brady while Dobson was off doing other things? And why does Jenkins get a pass from playing special teams? Oh, right, because he sucks and is incapable.


You're usually better at reading than that.

Quote:
I don't see anything suggesting Jenkins is getting "extra" reps at WR, merely that Dobson is getting reps at both WR and special teams. As Jenkins isn't going to contribute on special teams, he isn't involved in those unit drills.


Jenkins was working with Brady while the special teams units were doing drills. We have no idea how many reps each guy got during the WR-specific portion of the drills, but Jenkins and Amendola seemed to be the only WR's who didn't take part in special teams drills. I don't see those as "extra" reps.

Well, that's where we differ, because I do see those as extra reps. Brady's time is limited, and if someone is going to stay behind and work with him while special teams work is done, I'd prefer it was a guy that will be counted on to be the future at the position, not a JAG on the wrong side of 30 that shouldn't make the roster.

mcmurtry86 wrote:
I don't really see what the issue here is other than you hate Jenkins' presence on the roster and you feel that young WR"s being able to play ST is a waste

It's not a waste, it's just an inefficient allocation of resources.

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Quote:
Why exactly should Dobson have to contribute on special teams, anyway? They have multiple viable alternatives any potential role he'd play, while they don't really have any for his presumed position on offense, which is vastly more important than special teams.


So what if Dobson can't acclimate to the WR portion of the game by September? Being good (or useful) at ST helps him get on the 46 man game day roster. So if - by some horror - Jenkins wins the starting spot but breaks his leg in the 2nd quarter of a game, Dobson will get a chance to shine. Otherwise, that chance is going to go to Edelman or Moe or someone who can contribute other than at purely WR.

If Dobson can't acclimate by September, the Patriots have a major, major problem outside the numbers.

Quote:
Your fear here, or frustration, or whatever it is seems surprisingly irrational. Pinning our hopes for the offense on the back of a WR who probably needs a full year before becoming a legitimately solid starting WR seems like a bad idea.

I'd agree, it is a bad idea, but I didn't make that decision. Not that I was particularly enamored with Lloyd after last season, but I'd feel far safer with him as my rookie buffer than Jenkins. If Jenkins is starting come week 1, the offense takes a hit.

Quote:
I see his work on special teams right now as nothing more than an orientation and a chance to show he can and is willing to do other things to help the team. Whether it's helping field an onside kick, or being a backup returner, or (less likely) on coverage units, those things do matter. More than that, I don't like the idea of Dobson being the only rookie who is told he is exempt from special teams work.

I agree, I don't like that idea either. Other talented players, including rookies, should be exempted as well. Guys with elite tools and irreplaceable skill sets shouldn't be exposed to injury and wear and tear on special teams, when backups and a handful of designated special teams guys can fulfill those tasks capably.

Quote:
Now, if we're sitting here in late August and Dobson is seeing 3rd team reps in every preseason game and Jenkins is Brady's #1 target, I will share your concern. But from July-September (or December/January in your hypothetical), Dobson and Boyce are both going to get a ton of balls thrown to them from Brady and Mallett. If they can't develop that chemistry in that period, while also chipping in on special teams drills, they're never going to get it anyway.

Why leave it to chance, though? Why not give them every advantage possible, when you've already put yourself in a position where you're facing dire circumstances if they fail?

Quote:
Lastly, IMO - and I guess you differ here - I like Belichick's approach of making every rookie try different roles and work their way into their spot slowly. I'm glad he's not implicitly saying "Hey Dobson, we need you more than we need Moe at WR, so you don't play ST." The idea that every rookie and young player, regardless of roster "need" or draft status, needs to prove themselves is important. I think those intangibles are every bit as important as the chemistry you think Dobson might be losing out on developing with Brady. I don't think there's anything less Belichickian than treating a guy as special or as an exception because he is 'needed'.

Go read about LT and Parcells and Belichick (or more likely, refer back to what you've read, because I doubt you missed it), and see if special treatment doesn't enter the equation. The illusion of conformity and non-preferential treatment is more valuable and sustainable than the reality. Now, obviously, LT had earned that treatment, and Dobson hasn't (and couldn't, as of yet, having never played an NFL game), but guys are treated differently based on how they play and how replaceable they are. I agree that young players need to prove themselves, but that doesn't have to include special teams reps, especially if the player isn't particularly valuable in that area.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
Guys with elite tools and irreplaceable skill sets shouldn't be exposed to injury and wear and tear on special teams, when backups and a handful of designated special teams guys can fulfill those tasks capably.


Troy Brown was about as irreplaceable as one could be on the 2001 Patriots offense. I'm pretty happy that he was put on (kept on) special teams. He was far more valuable to that team than Dobson is to the 2013 Patriots as of right now.

I'm hopeful for Dobson but you've put him on a bizarre pedestal where the fate of the team's passing attack seems to be relying (in your mind) on a guy who is very possibly going to be a total dud based on both league wide and team specific bust rates at the position.

Again, if he's as good and as valuable as you hope, he won't see much time at all on special teams as camp goes on and his focus will become WR-centric. Until he stands out and demonstrates to be an elite talent, he absolutely should be given the chance to show value in other areas of the team or be at least familiar with the workings of the other units. Nobody is suggesting he is going to be a core special teams player. But I don't think spending some time learning how the team teaches onside recovery, kick returns and coverage units is going to retard his development at WR the way you suggest.

Understanding the "team" concept is important to the character and identity of the Patriots. I know Belichick has said it before but the idea that he would say "we're putting Gary out there on special teams because we don't care if he gets hurt but not Joe because he's too important" is totally opposite of the philosophy which has generated an almost unprecedented period of success.

I know we can all nitpick Belichick about all things WR, but his overall coaching philosophy has proven to work. When it comes to making sure his players #1-61 (including the 8 practice squad guys) are prepared for every possible scenario and making sure he has the best 11 guys on the field for each job has been a huge part of the team's success. Understanding the game and understanding the non-WR-centric aspects of the team is crucial for rookies and overall team development IMO.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Troy Brown was about as irreplaceable as one could be on the 2001 Patriots offense. I'm pretty happy that he was put on (kept on) special teams. He was far more valuable to that team than Dobson is to the 2013 Patriots as of right now.

That's because the 2013 Patriots don't exist yet. They won't until September, and by that point, Dobson could well be that important. I'm happy that Troy Brown was kept on special teams as well, but that was a vastly different scenario, with an established player that produced on special teams but whose loss would not have derailed the outside passing game.

Quote:
I'm hopeful for Dobson but you've put him on a bizarre pedestal where the fate of the team's passing attack seems to be relying (in your mind) on a guy who is very possibly going to be a total dud based on both league wide and team specific bust rates at the position.

You're right, I have been Dobson-centric, and I considered addressing that in my previous post, because it actually reinforces my point to remove him from the equation. Taking Dobson completely out of the picture, the Patriots have other veteran wide receivers with tenuous holds on roster spots that could benefit from added time with Brady, and those players are a far better bet to help the team both immediately and down the road. I'd much rather see Donald Jones or Lavelle Hawkins getting those extra reps than Jenkins. My original point was far more anti-Jenkins than pro-Dobson, and it remains so, despite how impassioned my plea for Dobson to receive time with Brady was.

Quote:
Again, if he's as good and as valuable as you hope, he won't see much time at all on special teams as camp goes on and his focus will become WR-centric. Until he stands out and demonstrates to be an elite talent, he absolutely should be given the chance to show value in other areas of the team or be at least familiar with the workings of the other units. Nobody is suggesting he is going to be a core special teams player. But I don't think spending some time learning how the team teaches onside recovery, kick returns and coverage units is going to retard his development at WR the way you suggest.

I don't think it will hinder his development either. Lack of time with Brady, however, will, same as it will for other, more valuable receivers. Which is basically everyone on the roster aside from Jenkins. Whether it's Brady, Belichick, O'Brien, McDaniels, the scheme or Ernie Adams throwing darts in the back room, for whatever reason, guys who don't develop a rapport with Brady early seem to get frozen out later.

Quote:
Understanding the "team" concept is important to the character and identity of the Patriots. I know Belichick has said it before but the idea that he would say "we're putting Gary out there on special teams because we don't care if he gets hurt but not Joe because he's too important" is totally opposite of the philosophy which has generated an almost unprecedented period of success.

Of course you don't say it. But you damn sure do it. Elite starters don't tend to play on special teams, even in Belichick's system. I agree that the team concept is of utmost importance, but the team doesn't fall apart because you decide that Tom Brady probably shouldn't be covering punts. Hyperbole, sure, but the point is the same; interchangeability and sacrifice for the team are great mantras but poor strategies past a certain point.

Quote:
I know we can all nitpick Belichick about all things WR, but his overall coaching philosophy has proven to work. When it comes to making sure his players #1-61 (including the 8 practice squad guys) are prepared for every possible scenario and making sure he has the best 11 guys on the field for each job has been a huge part of the team's success. Understanding the game and understanding the non-WR-centric aspects of the team is crucial for rookies and overall team development IMO.

I honestly am not nitpicking based on pass receiver woes with developmental prospects. Honestly, they've had a bad run on four picks of significance (Jackson, Johnson, Tate and Price), which can and has happened to every team in the league at some point at a trouble spot. I think that had to do more with poor personnel decisions and a healthy dose of bad luck when it came to essentially unknowable factors (health, work ethic, field intelligence) than the developmental process of those guys. But the situation is also different now, and that's more of what I'm arguing. The team had a solid cast of entrenched veterans at the position when those guys were drafted, and they were expected to be developmental, complimentary players at first. This crop of rookies needs to be able to contribute a lot sooner, or there could be dire consequences.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
Quote:
Troy Brown was about as irreplaceable as one could be on the 2001 Patriots offense. I'm pretty happy that he was put on (kept on) special teams. He was far more valuable to that team than Dobson is to the 2013 Patriots as of right now.

That's because the 2013 Patriots don't exist yet. They won't until September, and by that point, Dobson could well be that important. I'm happy that Troy Brown was kept on special teams as well, but that was a vastly different scenario, with an established player that produced on special teams but whose loss would not have derailed the outside passing game.


You're right, Brown's loss would have derailed the entire offense.

Quote:
Elite starters don't tend to play on special teams, even in Belichick's system.


Really? Gronkowski plays special teams both on FG (obviously) and has blocked on returns. I believe Hernandez has been used as a blocker on return teams and on FG units at times though not as a core player. Welker returned punts at times. Ty Law and Rodney Harrison both played special teams units at times. Vrabel and Bruschi both covered kicks and Vrabel obviously played on FG units as a blocker/TE.

I'll grant you Brady, Moss, and Corey Dillon. I don't remember too many other guys getting special teams exemptions. Richard Seymour - arguable the most "elite" defensive talent in Belichick's tenure - played on FG block units. Same for Wilfork. Mankins and Solder have both played on kick return units (as have other valuable starting OL).

Mayo hasn't played a ton recently, but has played on the punt coverage and FG block units. I think I've seen him on kick coverage units at times but maybe not since his rookie year.

Sure, some of these guys haven't been "core" special teams guys, but they've done it at one point in their careers. Moss had absolutely no value on special teams, so I can see why he wasn't used regardless of his star status. Brady, again, even were he not a star, a QB isn't going to play ST. Dillon I guess theoretically could have been used on coverage or return teams, so he's a true exception. Almost every starting player under Belichick has appeared on a punt, kick or FG/PAT unit. That includes almost all of their "elite" players.
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My final point on this because I don't think we're going to find common ground here:

Bill Belichick is the same coach who put Richard Seymour, already established as one of the the most important players on the team, in as a FB (IMO more dangerous than most ST roles). Now you can say that was a stupid idea but it really deflates the idea of "preferential" treatment for star players other than Brady and Moss (and honestly, I think if Moss had real ST value we might have seen him out there at one point or another). Dobson is a 2nd round rookie who is a total unknown as a WR. He's not going to be the next exception in the line of Brady and Moss.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
You're right, Brown's loss would have derailed the entire offense.

Wow, Troy Brown was my favorite player when he was active, but I would not have made that claim.

Quote:
Really? Gronkowski plays special teams both on FG (obviously) and has blocked on returns.

And hindsight being 20/20, we can see what a mistake that was.

Quote:
I believe Hernandez has been used as a blocker on return teams and on FG units at times though not as a core player. Welker returned punts at times. Ty Law and Rodney Harrison both played special teams units at times. Vrabel and Bruschi both covered kicks and Vrabel obviously played on FG units as a blocker/TE.

I'll grant you Brady, Moss, and Corey Dillon. I don't remember too many other guys getting special teams exemptions. Richard Seymour - arguable the most "elite" defensive talent in Belichick's tenure - played on FG block units. Same for Wilfork. Mankins and Solder have both played on kick return units (as have other valuable starting OL).

Mayo hasn't played a ton recently, but has played on the punt coverage and FG block units. I think I've seen him on kick coverage units at times but maybe not since his rookie year.

Sure, some of these guys haven't been "core" special teams guys, but they've done it at one point in their careers. Moss had absolutely no value on special teams, so I can see why he wasn't used regardless of his star status. Brady, again, even were he not a star, a QB isn't going to play ST. Dillon I guess theoretically could have been used on coverage or return teams, so he's a true exception. Almost every starting player under Belichick has appeared on a punt, kick or FG/PAT unit. That includes almost all of their "elite" players.

Well, I thought it was implicit we were talking about guys that were core special teams players that appeared on at least a couple units, not guys that filled in at various points but were far from being mainstays. For that matter, I barely even consider field goal block units real special teams plays, they're more specialty defensive plays, but even conceding that, it's hard to consider a guy like Seymour to be a guy that wasn't exempted from special teams duty by and large. There's a wide gap between the guys you mentioned and someone like Troy Brown, that filled a variety of roles on special teams and had real value there. I find it highly unlikely Dobson ever is considered for that kind of role.
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Richter


Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, taking your point about everyone contributing there at face value, why on earth, if only Brady, Moss and Dillon received true exemptions, is Michael freakin' Jenkins being afforded the same luxury? Why is he even on the team if he has such little special teams value? Seems odd, all around.
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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
Also, taking your point about everyone contributing there at face value, why on earth, if only Brady, Moss and Dillon received true exemptions, is Michael freakin' Jenkins being afforded the same luxury? Why is he even on the team if he has such little special teams value? Seems odd, all around.


I don't think he's being given an exemption as much as the team wanted Brady to have someone to throw to and he was picked because he needs the special teams work the least
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