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A.J. Jenkins: BFS
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Ronnie's Pinky


Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 295
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NINERFAN_4_LIFE wrote:
I think you missed the point I was making... Holt was a different type of wr than those three listed. They use their size speed and strength to get open while Holt got by on great route running and quickness.

Holt was elite but he didn't have elite size or strength, jenkins doesnt either which seems to me the only reasons that people like you don't think Jenkins will have a chance to be good. When in reality there are more important attributes to good NFL wrs ... like route running and hands... Holt had them, which is why he was so good for so long


Torry Holt, in his prime, had an outstanding top gear that allowed him to pull away from NFL dbs. He was more than just "quick". AJJ is also fast, but he simply doesn't have Holt's athletic gifts.
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757-NINER


Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 441
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronnie's Pinky wrote:
AJJ is also fast, but he simply doesn't have Holt's athletic gifts.


How so? Just based on raw numbers, AJ is faster and more explosive. No one should use Tory Holt and the phrase "athletic gifts" in the same sentence. Certain WRs that term applies but not with Tory Holt.
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NINERFAN_4_LIFE


Joined: 01 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

757-NINER wrote:
Ronnie's Pinky wrote:
AJJ is also fast, but he simply doesn't have Holt's athletic gifts.


How so? Just based on raw numbers, AJ is faster and more explosive. No one should use Tory Holt and the phrase "athletic gifts" in the same sentence. Certain WRs that term applies but not with Tory Holt.


Holt was a little bigger than AJ but also had shorter arms from what I can tell. tough to say who was faster or more explosive at this point. Holt is going to the hall of fame (if hes not there already, I dont follow that too closely) and AJ has zero career catches. So the comparison isnt warranted quite yet. I was just using holt as an example of a legit number 1 WR who made his living by being a good route runner in an explosive offense. essentially showing that you dont need elite size to be an elite WR. - because that seems to me that size would be the only knock you could have on AJ at this point, other than a lack of PT, which honestly should solve itself


holt wasnt a great WR because he had an extra top gear. we have seen plenty of those guys never live up to expectations (ginn, troy williamson, dhb), he was great because he was a technician on the outside. one of the best at making double moves ive seen and had hands like fly paper. In my eyes he was more skillful than he was talented. He knew the nuances of being a WR in the same sense that jerry rice did and got by less on "talent" and "athletic ability" than he did with "skill"


I am just imparcial to this type of WR I guess
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757-NINER


Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 441
PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NINERFAN_4_LIFE wrote:

Holt was a little bigger than AJ but also had shorter arms from what I can tell. tough to say who was faster or more explosive at this point. Holt is going to the hall of fame (if hes not there already, I dont follow that too closely) and AJ has zero career catches. So the comparison isnt warranted quite yet. I was just using holt as an example of a legit number 1 WR who made his living by being a good route runner in an explosive offense. essentially showing that you dont need elite size to be an elite WR. - because that seems to me that size would be the only knock you could have on AJ at this point, other than a lack of PT, which honestly should solve itself


holt wasnt a great WR because he had an extra top gear. we have seen plenty of those guys never live up to expectations (ginn, troy williamson, dhb), he was great because he was a technician on the outside. one of the best at making double moves ive seen and had hands like fly paper. In my eyes he was more skillful than he was talented. He knew the nuances of being a WR in the same sense that jerry rice did and got by less on "talent" and "athletic ability" than he did with "skill"


I am just imparcial to this type of WR I guess


Holt was 192 lbs when he was drafted, 2 lbs heavier than AJ. Same height. I don't see the how Holt is bigger. He might have put on maybe 5-8 lbs over the course of his career but Holt was never a weight room guy. A 2 lb difference isn't noticeable to the naked eye. I don't really see any difference in their stature. And I honestly don't see how Holt is faster at this point. Holt was 4.4 guy. AJ is a sub 4.4 guy. His 10 yard split is faster than Holt. His 20 yard split is extremely faster than Holt. Maybe for his era, Holt had another gear but I never saw it and the numbers back up my assertions. He was fast, dont get me wrong. But to me, guys like DeSean Jackson and Mike Wallace have "another gear". I never saw that gear from Holt. No one has seen enough of AJ to say he doesn't have another gear and that its not comparable to Holt's.

But more importantly, they're two different players in two different eras. Holt played in a offense that was a perfect fit for his skill set. He played in a pass first, vertical-based scheme. And on turf for all his home games, no less. Jenkins will never put up the numbers Holt did. Surely not in a Jim Harbaugh offense, which will always be a balanced, power-run oriented scheme. But I think they're more similar than people want to admit, in terms of skill-set and physical build. Holt just had better functionally strength to defeat press coverage early on, where that's something AJ still has to work on. Some WRs just have that functional strength to get off the line. Look at Manningham. He's actually smaller than AJ but he's wiry strong and has never had a problem with press coverage. Technique plays a part in it as well.
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AndyLeesAunt


Joined: 21 Feb 2013
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Location: New York
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am on AJ's side but apparently he is still a little short of his weight goal..

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/49ers-wr-jenkins-still-has-weight-gain
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AMG1713


Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 835
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyLeesAunt wrote:
I am on AJ's side but apparently he is still a little short of his weight goal..

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/49ers-wr-jenkins-still-has-weight-gain


If he was a Seahawk, he'd probably be at 210 by now, knowing how that organization functions.
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757-NINER


Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 441
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyLeesAunt wrote:
I am on AJ's side but apparently he is still a little short of his weight goal..

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/49ers-wr-jenkins-still-has-weight-gain


He's fine. Its not about gaining mass, its about improving his strength. If he added 6 lbs of muscle, that would help his game tremendously. If he just gain 6 lbs, it would do nothing but probably take away some of his burst and quickness. Gaining 6 lbs of muscle and maintaining that weight, in one off-season is big for him. Its not about him necessarily getting bigger, its about improving his strength. He has a slight frame. Its going be hard for him to get much bigger, without losing some speed and quickness. With the way these guys train and burn calories everyday, to add and maintain that weight is a big development. Especially if he did it the right way.
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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 14823
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AndyLeesAunt wrote:
I am on AJ's side but apparently he is still a little short of his weight goal..

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/49ers-wr-jenkins-still-has-weight-gain


Muscle and strength - way more important than weight. Anyone's who's worked out some knows it's possible to get a lot stronger without gaining weight. More weight would be good - as long of course as it doesn't impact his speed or quickness. I'm just hoping he's come back with more functional strength, and a much better sense of where he's supposed to be on the field since he seemed a bit lost last year.
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Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
AndyLeesAunt wrote:
I am on AJ's side but apparently he is still a little short of his weight goal..

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/49ers-wr-jenkins-still-has-weight-gain


Muscle and strenght way more important than weight. Anyone's who's worked out some knows it's possible to get a lot stronger without gaining weight. More weight would be good - as long of course as it doesn't impact his speed or quickness. I'm just hoping he's come back with more functional strength, and a much better sense of where he's supposed to be on the field since he seemed a bit lost last year.


It is possible, but extremely difficult; most body builders have two separate phases, a cutting phase, where they are working at a caloric deficit and lose weight, and a building/gaining phase where they eat a ton, work out a ton, and put on muscle weight. Generally these two phases are kept separate and not intertwined. Muscle is more compact and dense then fat, so typically, when adding muscle, you are going to add weight even though you will look leaner. It's generally speaking, not recommended to try and maintain/lose weight while trying to build muscle since your muscles need the additional caloric intake and energy to help aid in their recovery, which is where the actual "building" of muscle and strength occurs. If he put on only 4 pounds, but that 4 pounds was all muscle, that's a pretty good start given that he's not a gym rat.
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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
AndyLeesAunt wrote:
I am on AJ's side but apparently he is still a little short of his weight goal..

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/49ers-wr-jenkins-still-has-weight-gain


Muscle and strenght way more important than weight. Anyone's who's worked out some knows it's possible to get a lot stronger without gaining weight. More weight would be good - as long of course as it doesn't impact his speed or quickness. I'm just hoping he's come back with more functional strength, and a much better sense of where he's supposed to be on the field since he seemed a bit lost last year.


It is possible, but extremely difficult; most body builders have two separate phases, a cutting phase, where they are working at a caloric deficit and lose weight, and a building/gaining phase where they eat a ton, work out a ton, and put on muscle weight. Generally these two phases are kept separate and not intertwined. Muscle is more compact and dense then fat, so typically, when adding muscle, you are going to add weight even though you will look leaner. It's generally speaking, not recommended to try and maintain/lose weight while trying to build muscle since your muscles need the additional caloric intake and energy to help aid in their recovery, which is where the actual "building" of muscle and strength occurs. If he put on only 4 pounds, but that 4 pounds was all muscle, that's a pretty good start given that he's not a gym rat.


All true, but the focus needs to be on his strength not his weight. Don't know what his body fat ratio was; probably not high. But if he converts some fat to muscle he'll be stronger without weighing too much more.
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SoCalNiner


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Forge wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
AndyLeesAunt wrote:
I am on AJ's side but apparently he is still a little short of his weight goal..

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/49ers-wr-jenkins-still-has-weight-gain


Muscle and strenght way more important than weight. Anyone's who's worked out some knows it's possible to get a lot stronger without gaining weight. More weight would be good - as long of course as it doesn't impact his speed or quickness. I'm just hoping he's come back with more functional strength, and a much better sense of where he's supposed to be on the field since he seemed a bit lost last year.


It is possible, but extremely difficult; most body builders have two separate phases, a cutting phase, where they are working at a caloric deficit and lose weight, and a building/gaining phase where they eat a ton, work out a ton, and put on muscle weight. Generally these two phases are kept separate and not intertwined. Muscle is more compact and dense then fat, so typically, when adding muscle, you are going to add weight even though you will look leaner. It's generally speaking, not recommended to try and maintain/lose weight while trying to build muscle since your muscles need the additional caloric intake and energy to help aid in their recovery, which is where the actual "building" of muscle and strength occurs. If he put on only 4 pounds, but that 4 pounds was all muscle, that's a pretty good start given that he's not a gym rat.


All true, but the focus needs to be on his strength not his weight. Don't know what his body fat ratio was; probably not high. But if he converts some fat to muscle he'll be stronger without weighing too much more.


Strength should definitely be his focus, if he can't beat the jam again this year, he won't play much.
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