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ROLB/LOLB depth?
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2177
PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: ROLB/LOLB depth? Reply with quote

Can a player back up both spots? Can Jones learn and play both positions and replace either woodley or worilds if they get hurt?
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Let me be the first to congratulate you on making a thread that did not make a single reference to the offensive line

2. Jones played both ROLB and LOLB at Georgia. He was not a static player, he was moved all over the place
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
1. Let me be the first to congratulate you on making a thread that did not make a single reference to the offensive line

2. Jones played both ROLB and LOLB at Georgia. He was not a static player, he was moved all over the place


Do you think they will have him as the next player on the field if woodley or worilds get hurt? I am hearing the bogus message that the D is complex and first year players need to learn the system first.

The OL could still be a bad topic, but these times it is the loss of 92 that could be worse. I think I will let others go on about the OL (for now). It is something I just gave up on, they tried anyways, and it could be decent . Can't believe what we went through in recent seasons.
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rlon40


Joined: 13 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
1. Let me be the first to congratulate you on making a thread that did not make a single reference to the offensive line

2. Jones played both ROLB and LOLB at Georgia. He was not a static player, he was moved all over the place
^^^^^^^^^^

When I watched the clips posted here, he seemed to be on the left side more often than the right. Of course, this may have been dependent upon the game plan against each team, as RTs tend to be much less athletic and Georgia staff may have exploited the match up more. There are also some QBs that are so jittery that I'd think there is a big advantage to having them see most of the pressure coming at them rather than relying on big plays from the blind side, though I'd think said tactic would mostly be to cover up your lack of a rusher from the other side.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
1. Let me be the first to congratulate you on making a thread that did not make a single reference to the offensive line

2. Jones played both ROLB and LOLB at Georgia. He was not a static player, he was moved all over the place


Do you think they will have him as the next player on the field if woodley or worilds get hurt? I am hearing the bogus message that the D is complex and first year players need to learn the system first.

The OL could still be a bad topic, but these times it is the loss of 92 that could be worse. I think I will let others go on about the OL (for now). It is something I just gave up on, they tried anyways, and it could be decent . Can't believe what we went through in recent seasons.
"IF" Worilds wins the starting, yes, Jones would be the reserve on either side should Woodley or Worilds go down.

It is a bogus message that rookie players can not learn the D, yes, it is complex but Ryan Kerrigan started for the Redskins in this same D as a rookie and he had 63 tackles, 7.5 sacks and 1 int and returned for a TD as a rookie.

I honestly don't see why the OL or OLB should be a huge topic right now other than who people think will start at certain postions.

The steelers have done a good job at both position groups of brining in good young talent over the past 4 years. Now it's just time for the young guys to step up and perform on both the OL and at OLB.

There is really nothing else they could have done at either position group other than going out and spending $ they didn't have on free agents.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
3rivers wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
1. Let me be the first to congratulate you on making a thread that did not make a single reference to the offensive line

2. Jones played both ROLB and LOLB at Georgia. He was not a static player, he was moved all over the place


Do you think they will have him as the next player on the field if woodley or worilds get hurt? I am hearing the bogus message that the D is complex and first year players need to learn the system first.

The OL could still be a bad topic, but these times it is the loss of 92 that could be worse. I think I will let others go on about the OL (for now). It is something I just gave up on, they tried anyways, and it could be decent . Can't believe what we went through in recent seasons.
"IF" Worilds wins the starting, yes, Jones would be the reserve on either side should Woodley or Worilds go down.

It is a bogus message that rookie players can not learn the D, yes, it is complex but Ryan Kerrigan started for the Redskins in this same D as a rookie and he had 63 tackles, 7.5 sacks and 1 int and returned for a TD as a rookie.

I honestly don't see why the OL or OLB should be a huge topic right now other than who people think will start at certain postions.

The steelers have done a good job at both position groups of brining in good young talent over the past 4 years. Now it's just time for the young guys to step up and perform on both the OL and at OLB.

There is really nothing else they could have done at either position group other than going out and spending $ they didn't have on free agents.


Its not just that it is complex, but LeBeau likes to groom guys before they start. He goes overboard with it, but its not JUST about it being too complex.

I am not worried about LB depth, but OLine depth right now is a huge issue.

Since when have they done a good job at bringing in good young talent on the OLine? Yes, we have drafted players early, but to this point, none of them have really shown much. Pouncey has been solid, but underwhelming. Adams and DeCastro havent even played half a season yet. Gilbert had moments but has major issues. Too early to say we have done a good job until those guys actually pan out. Simply drafting players doesnt constitute a "good job"

While I can live with our current starting OLine, they couldve done more with our depth. Beechum is all we retained, and we signed one of the worst OTs in the league in Guy Whimper. Im not saying they shouldve went out and signed an expensive lineman, but continued mismanagement of this roster is why the OLine is still a major issue.

And before anyone goes crazy, I am not saying I know better than the front office....but you dont have to be a GM to see the numerous poor decisions they have made at OLine over the years.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
3rivers wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
1. Let me be the first to congratulate you on making a thread that did not make a single reference to the offensive line

2. Jones played both ROLB and LOLB at Georgia. He was not a static player, he was moved all over the place


Do you think they will have him as the next player on the field if woodley or worilds get hurt? I am hearing the bogus message that the D is complex and first year players need to learn the system first.

The OL could still be a bad topic, but these times it is the loss of 92 that could be worse. I think I will let others go on about the OL (for now). It is something I just gave up on, they tried anyways, and it could be decent . Can't believe what we went through in recent seasons.
"IF" Worilds wins the starting, yes, Jones would be the reserve on either side should Woodley or Worilds go down.

It is a bogus message that rookie players can not learn the D, yes, it is complex but Ryan Kerrigan started for the Redskins in this same D as a rookie and he had 63 tackles, 7.5 sacks and 1 int and returned for a TD as a rookie.

I honestly don't see why the OL or OLB should be a huge topic right now other than who people think will start at certain postions.

The steelers have done a good job at both position groups of brining in good young talent over the past 4 years. Now it's just time for the young guys to step up and perform on both the OL and at OLB.

There is really nothing else they could have done at either position group other than going out and spending $ they didn't have on free agents.


Its not just that it is complex, but LeBeau likes to groom guys before they start. He goes overboard with it, but its not JUST about it being too complex.
Yeah and I continue to believe that is some conspiracy dreamed up by some media and some fans, the best players start and play.

Quote:
I am not worried about LB depth, but OLine depth right now is a huge issue.
They've drafted players and brought some in and if they feel they had to in July or August they could re-sign Starks and Legursky for depth.

At some point the players they've brought in and have been developing as reserves or on the practice squad need to come in and prove themselves. Those guys have that chance right now. If they struggle, then and only then, should hey go back to the veteran well.

Quote:
Since when have they done a good job at bringing in good young talent on the OLine? Yes, we have drafted players early, but to this point, none of them have really shown much. Pouncey has been solid, but underwhelming. Adams and DeCastro havent even played half a season yet. Gilbert had moments but has major issues. Too early to say we have done a good job until those guys actually pan out. Simply drafting players doesnt constitute a "good job"
this is true, but we will only know the answer I'd they are allowed to play and show what they can do throughout a season. The reason I say they've done a good job brining guys in is that they've drafted guys high. They've invested highly in the OL, starting with Pouncey in the draft. You can't ask anything more than what they've done they than drafting another OL high last year when it was obvious the guys that's been drafted needed chances to prove or disprove themselves first.

Everyone wants instant gratification whether its these OL, the young rbs DBs, Worilds or Wrs like Sanders, well sometimes it happens with players but often times it takes 3 years or so tilt hey develop into solid starters and that's after they've had a few up and down seasons.

Quote:
While I can live with our current starting OLine, they couldve done more with our depth. Beechum is all we retained, and we signed one of the worst OTs in the league in Guy Whimper. Im not saying they shouldve went out and signed an expensive lineman, but continued mismanagement of this roster is why the OLine is still a major issue.

And before anyone goes crazy, I am not saying I know better than the front office....but you dont have to be a GM to see the numerous poor decisions they have made at OLine over the years.
We also have no clue if they may sign someone like Legursky or Starks if people struggle to fill their voids. We also have no clue right now if Joe Long, Justin Cheadle, mike Farrell, Nick Embernate, Mike Golic, Jr, Chris Hubbard, Joe Malecki, or Guy Whimper will look good enough where a vet or 2 doesn't need re-signed.

You lean a little more pessimistic till you are shown otherwise.

I'm the opposite. I think depth will be fine until I know it isn't during the preseason.

Back ups are never going to be great, otherwise they'd be starting somewhere. Sometimes people expect this great depth where they could start somewhere else, well 9 out of 10 times it doesn't work out that way. Depth is depth for a reason
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

great post 43, that's exactly it

LeBeau hates rookies and young guys because he would rather see someone make a mistake due to lack of ability rather than lack of understanding of the scheme. He is risk averse. He doesn't let his players make mental errors, but it's perfectly ok if the mistake is due to a lack of talent.

the problem is that slows the development of the young players, rather than accelerating it, because nothing teaches you better than the real thing, and LeBeau won't allow that to happen. It also prevents much more talented young players from learning the system earlier and also, due to their immense physical talents, actually contributing meaningfully on the plays they DON'T make mistakes.

case in point - Cam Heyward in his rookie season was playing RDE and he gave up his gap and a big run resulted. LeBeau pulled him from the game and Heyward rarely saw the field the rest of his rookie season.

Yet last year, vs. oakland, both Keisel (who was still gimpy from his groin injury) AND Casey Hampton AND Lawrence Timmons got absolutely embarrased. Palmer got the entire front 7 to show their hand (it was going to be a blitz). Keisel even gave the ole "aw crap" handclap right before the play.

The blitz was called off, Keisel and Casey went back to a standard alignment (they were overshifted to allow Timmons a straight line path to blitz), yet Timmons STILL tried to blitz, got caught WAY out of position, Brett Keisel got absolutely embarrassed and because of Timmons being so far out of position, Veldheer was able to "block" both of them out of the play, and Stefan Wisniewski ran Casey Hampton out of the play entirely in the opposite direction.

The result? 64 yard TD run right up our gut through a hole big enough for Teddy Washington to roll through sideways

Cam Heyward missed 3/4 of his rookie season as a result of this type of mistake, yet the vets damn sure didn't miss a snap
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:

Back ups are never going to be great, otherwise they'd be starting somewhere.


careful. You know that statement is wrong.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
turtle28 wrote:

Back ups are never going to be great, otherwise they'd be starting somewhere.


careful. You know that statement is wrong.


I think what he means is that Steeler fans often have unrealstic expectations of our backups....and if so, I agree with him.

Too often, I see Steeler fans who complain about backups when they dont play up to the level of the starter. DONT GET ME WRONG....some backups are downright awful (Jon Scott and Ryan Mundy jump to mind), but I remember people complaing about Doug Legursky and Charlie Batch, even though they were probably two of the better backups at their positions in the league.

Ideally, we would have starting caliber players at every backup position, but realistically, youll be lucky to even have players that can bring half of what they starters do, especially if said backup is replacing a great player.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
turtle28 wrote:

Back ups are never going to be great, otherwise they'd be starting somewhere.


careful. You know that statement is wrong.
so is your conspiracy against Lebeau
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
turtle28 wrote:

Back ups are never going to be great, otherwise they'd be starting somewhere.


careful. You know that statement is wrong.


I think what he means is that Steeler fans often have unrealstic expectations of our backups....and if so, I agree with him.

Too often, I see Steeler fans who complain about backups when they dont play up to the level of the starter. DONT GET ME WRONG....some backups are downright awful (Jon Scott and Ryan Mundy jump to mind), but I remember people complaing about Doug Legursky and Charlie Batch, even though they were probably two of the better backups at their positions in the league.

Ideally, we would have starting caliber players at every backup position, but realistically, youll be lucky to even have players that can bring half of what they starters do, especially if said backup is replacing a great player.
Exactly, Kethnabb took my quote out of context. And every draft pick is not automatically better than the pro bowler or vet in front of them just because they were drafted high
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Gatoradus


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While that's true, turtle28 but man... the draft classes of 08' and 09' hurt us badly. If you can't replace a pro bowler, you either sign a free agent with a respectable caliber or a high pick. We now are replacing our either "starters" or unproven starters instead of pro bowlers. Yeah, I don't consider mike wallace a pro bowler but he was replacing Santonio Holmes who I would consider a pro bowler if wasn't for his off-field issues and ego. Worilds pick was supposed to replace Harrison, but we now are replacing Worilds or maybe they have a different plan for Jarvis Jones.

Only true "upgradeable" I see is with our O-line and secondary and O-line is still far from proven. As fans, its not that difficult to see when you know FO made a mistake or more, but its even harder for us homers to admit it Kevin Colbert just might have blew it with two classes.

I agree with Kethnaab, I don't even think we are in position to bench rookies in first year or two due to the "complex of scheme" because truthfully our currently rookies just might be upgrades right away.
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3rivers


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
great post 43, that's exactly it

LeBeau hates rookies and young guys because he would rather see someone make a mistake due to lack of ability rather than lack of understanding of the scheme. He is risk averse. He doesn't let his players make mental errors, but it's perfectly ok if the mistake is due to a lack of talent.

the problem is that slows the development of the young players, rather than accelerating it, because nothing teaches you better than the real thing, and LeBeau won't allow that to happen. It also prevents much more talented young players from learning the system earlier and also, due to their immense physical talents, actually contributing meaningfully on the plays they DON'T make mistakes.

case in point - Cam Heyward in his rookie season was playing RDE and he gave up his gap and a big run resulted. LeBeau pulled him from the game and Heyward rarely saw the field the rest of his rookie season.

Yet last year, vs. oakland, both Keisel (who was still gimpy from his groin injury) AND Casey Hampton AND Lawrence Timmons got absolutely embarrased. Palmer got the entire front 7 to show their hand (it was going to be a blitz). Keisel even gave the ole "aw crap" handclap right before the play.

The blitz was called off, Keisel and Casey went back to a standard alignment (they were overshifted to allow Timmons a straight line path to blitz), yet Timmons STILL tried to blitz, got caught WAY out of position, Brett Keisel got absolutely embarrassed and because of Timmons being so far out of position, Veldheer was able to "block" both of them out of the play, and Stefan Wisniewski ran Casey Hampton out of the play entirely in the opposite direction.

The result? 64 yard TD run right up our gut through a hole big enough for Teddy Washington to roll through sideways

Cam Heyward missed 3/4 of his rookie season as a result of this type of mistake, yet the vets damn sure didn't miss a snap


How many other examples are there, from games or practice we will not know. Would Lewis even have made it onto the field if willie never left (to only return since not wanted at arizona either)? What if they think mcclendon can play NT as Hampton did? Will mcclendon get benched like heyward? Heyward was a #1 pick and hardly plays but is easily as good as either Hood or Keisel, even better possibly .

On the other side of the ball, RB should not be as heavily influenced by the ways of the D, and I think Bell will be given a fair shot.

DL scheme is weakness at this point. Not the right players and the rules for OL to chop engaged blockers should make Lebeau change the scheme before someone has their knees chooped. Obvious even from a fans point of view.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
turtle28 wrote:

Back ups are never going to be great, otherwise they'd be starting somewhere.


careful. You know that statement is wrong.


I think what he means is that Steeler fans often have unrealstic expectations of our backups....and if so, I agree with him.



oh, well if that's what he meant then ok.
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