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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris00cm wrote:
DistantRam wrote:
FRO wrote:
There is no way that Snead could know that Brown and Warford would be there in the second.

And there is no way that Snead could have known that Ogletree would've been there at thirty. It was a gamble.
A much greater chance Ogletree drops than the other two. Only had 1-2 teams that would have possibly taken him.


I've been trying to stay out of this overly theoretical debate, but.....

Moving from #22 to #30 was every bit as risky as the hypothetical of moving further down and missing on Green/Warford. The real insight that should be gained from this is that our draft room did not think much higher of Ogletree than they did Warford and others.

The truth is that Snead and Fisher got brave in the first round, and were made happy/complacent with their "haul". Then they decided that they had risked (and benefited) enough to stay put. All in all, I think we all agree that they exercised their will once again this year. It is a victory for the time being.

Except that Stedmon Baily pick. Man I hope I'm wrong, but he screams "pedestrian" to me.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
DistantRam wrote:
FRO wrote:
There is no way that Snead could know that Brown and Warford would be there in the second.

And there is no way that Snead could have known that Ogletree would've been there at thirty. It was a gamble.
A much greater chance Ogletree drops than the other two. Only had 1-2 teams that would have possibly taken him.


I've been trying to stay out of this overly theoretical debate, but.....

Moving from #22 to #30 was every bit as risky as the hypothetical of moving further down and missing on Green/Warford. The real insight that should be gained from this is that our draft room did not think much higher of Ogletree than they did Warford and others.

The truth is that Snead and Fisher got brave in the first round, and were made happy/complacent with their "haul". Then they decided that they had risked (and benefited) enough to stay put. All in all, I think we all agree that they exercised their will once again this year. It is a victory for the time being.

Except that Stedmon Baily pick. Man I hope I'm wrong, but he screams "pedestrian" to me.
How are you coming to that conclusion? Thats just you projecting your thoughts on the players to the information we have now.

Have you read the stories? Because if you have there is no way you could come to that conclusion. Their Top 2 guys were Austin & Ogletree, but they knew the draft, did their homework on other teams, and knew (as much as one could know) that the risk was worth taking because not many other teams would take Alec between 22 & 30. If they knew the Vikings loved Ogletree, then they likely dont trade back from 22 (seeing as there was plenty of debate and apprehension doing so when they thought no one would take him)

Im sure there was nail biting followed by celebration at 30 because they liked him barely more than a fall back option that was from all reports below trading down again.

Warford was clearly outlined as a last resort at the 30 spot. They would have taken the move down to 32 without hesitation before picking him at 30, and not making that move back to 32 for Ogletree shows how fortunate they already knew they were.

Just because they gambled because they thought we could get him at 30 doesnt mean he wasnt at the Top of our Board. Thats exactly how you work a draft, to perfection. They got their 2 guys where they had to and thought they could. Doing a ton of pre-draft homework on other teams as well as the players is what allowed us to manipulate the Draft like that. Not "Oh well, he's still here and the only guy left we wanted, guess we should grab him"
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
DistantRam wrote:
FRO wrote:
There is no way that Snead could know that Brown and Warford would be there in the second.

And there is no way that Snead could have known that Ogletree would've been there at thirty. It was a gamble.
A much greater chance Ogletree drops than the other two. Only had 1-2 teams that would have possibly taken him.


I've been trying to stay out of this overly theoretical debate, but.....

Moving from #22 to #30 was every bit as risky as the hypothetical of moving further down and missing on Green/Warford. The real insight that should be gained from this is that our draft room did not think much higher of Ogletree than they did Warford and others.

The truth is that Snead and Fisher got brave in the first round, and were made happy/complacent with their "haul". Then they decided that they had risked (and benefited) enough to stay put. All in all, I think we all agree that they exercised their will once again this year. It is a victory for the time being.

Except that Stedmon Baily pick. Man I hope I'm wrong, but he screams "pedestrian" to me.
How are you coming to that conclusion? Thats just you projecting your thoughts on the players to the information we have now.

Have you read the stories? Because if you have there is no way you could come to that conclusion. Their Top 2 guys were Austin & Ogletree, but they knew the draft, did their homework on other teams, and knew (as much as one could know) that the risk was worth taking because not many other teams would take Alec between 22 & 30. If they knew the Vikings loved Ogletree, then they likely dont trade back from 22 (seeing as there was plenty of debate and apprehension doing so when they thought no one would take him)

Im sure there was nail biting followed by celebration at 30 because they liked him barely more than a fall back option that was from all reports below trading down again.

Warford was clearly outlined as a last resort at the 30 spot. They would have taken the move down to 32 without hesitation before picking him at 30, and not making that move back to 32 for Ogletree shows how fortunate they already knew they were.

Just because they gambled because they thought we could get him at 30 doesnt mean he wasnt at the Top of our Board. Thats exactly how you work a draft, to perfection. They got their 2 guys where they had to and thought they could. Doing a ton of pre-draft homework on other teams as well as the players is what allowed us to manipulate the Draft like that. Not "Oh well, he's still here and the only guy left we wanted, guess we should grab him"


You're saying the same things that I said:

A)Our front office exercised their will and came away happy.

B)There was a fallback option that they considered moving down from #30 and taking (in the event Ogletree was not still available).

C)It was a risk to move down from #22 to #30.

I have no doubt that Ogletree was their intended target, but reading between the lines, they felt comfortable enough to risk losing out on him by trading to #30. That suggests to me that their "fallback" plan at that pick was valued similarly to Ogltree.

You can say all you want about them feeling confident that no one aside from the Vikings were likely to select him, but that doesn't account for the possibility of a team trading up into #22-#29.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
DistantRam wrote:
FRO wrote:
There is no way that Snead could know that Brown and Warford would be there in the second.

And there is no way that Snead could have known that Ogletree would've been there at thirty. It was a gamble.
A much greater chance Ogletree drops than the other two. Only had 1-2 teams that would have possibly taken him.


I've been trying to stay out of this overly theoretical debate, but.....

Moving from #22 to #30 was every bit as risky as the hypothetical of moving further down and missing on Green/Warford. The real insight that should be gained from this is that our draft room did not think much higher of Ogletree than they did Warford and others.

The truth is that Snead and Fisher got brave in the first round, and were made happy/complacent with their "haul". Then they decided that they had risked (and benefited) enough to stay put. All in all, I think we all agree that they exercised their will once again this year. It is a victory for the time being.

Except that Stedmon Baily pick. Man I hope I'm wrong, but he screams "pedestrian" to me.
How are you coming to that conclusion? Thats just you projecting your thoughts on the players to the information we have now.

Have you read the stories? Because if you have there is no way you could come to that conclusion. Their Top 2 guys were Austin & Ogletree, but they knew the draft, did their homework on other teams, and knew (as much as one could know) that the risk was worth taking because not many other teams would take Alec between 22 & 30. If they knew the Vikings loved Ogletree, then they likely dont trade back from 22 (seeing as there was plenty of debate and apprehension doing so when they thought no one would take him)

Im sure there was nail biting followed by celebration at 30 because they liked him barely more than a fall back option that was from all reports below trading down again.

Warford was clearly outlined as a last resort at the 30 spot. They would have taken the move down to 32 without hesitation before picking him at 30, and not making that move back to 32 for Ogletree shows how fortunate they already knew they were.

Just because they gambled because they thought we could get him at 30 doesnt mean he wasnt at the Top of our Board. Thats exactly how you work a draft, to perfection. They got their 2 guys where they had to and thought they could. Doing a ton of pre-draft homework on other teams as well as the players is what allowed us to manipulate the Draft like that. Not "Oh well, he's still here and the only guy left we wanted, guess we should grab him"


You're saying the same things that I said:

A)Our front office exercised their will and came away happy.

B)There was a fallback option that they considered moving down from #30 and taking (in the event Ogletree was not still available).

C)It was a risk to move down from #22 to #30.

I have no doubt that Ogletree was their intended target, but reading between the lines, they felt comfortable enough to risk losing out on him by trading to #30. That suggests to me that their "fallback" plan at that pick was valued similarly to Ogltree.

You can say all you want about them feeling confident that no one aside from the Vikings were likely to select him, but that doesn't account for the possibility of a team trading up into #22-#29.
The nail-biting line was complete sarcasm, because they clearly wanted Ogletree, they took a calculated risk because they believed they could still get him at 30, they almost took him at 22, because they were already worried they might not get him at 30.

There would have been complete disappointment had Ogletree not been there at 30, they didnt want to take Warford there, or move down farther an miss out on top talent.

To say they would have been fine missing out on Ogletree is just wrong, and its your feelings that you are projecting into information we now have
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
chris00cm wrote:
DistantRam wrote:
FRO wrote:
There is no way that Snead could know that Brown and Warford would be there in the second.

And there is no way that Snead could have known that Ogletree would've been there at thirty. It was a gamble.
A much greater chance Ogletree drops than the other two. Only had 1-2 teams that would have possibly taken him.


I've been trying to stay out of this overly theoretical debate, but.....

Moving from #22 to #30 was every bit as risky as the hypothetical of moving further down and missing on Green/Warford. The real insight that should be gained from this is that our draft room did not think much higher of Ogletree than they did Warford and others.

The truth is that Snead and Fisher got brave in the first round, and were made happy/complacent with their "haul". Then they decided that they had risked (and benefited) enough to stay put. All in all, I think we all agree that they exercised their will once again this year. It is a victory for the time being.

Except that Stedmon Baily pick. Man I hope I'm wrong, but he screams "pedestrian" to me.
How are you coming to that conclusion? Thats just you projecting your thoughts on the players to the information we have now.

Have you read the stories? Because if you have there is no way you could come to that conclusion. Their Top 2 guys were Austin & Ogletree, but they knew the draft, did their homework on other teams, and knew (as much as one could know) that the risk was worth taking because not many other teams would take Alec between 22 & 30. If they knew the Vikings loved Ogletree, then they likely dont trade back from 22 (seeing as there was plenty of debate and apprehension doing so when they thought no one would take him)

Im sure there was nail biting followed by celebration at 30 because they liked him barely more than a fall back option that was from all reports below trading down again.

Warford was clearly outlined as a last resort at the 30 spot. They would have taken the move down to 32 without hesitation before picking him at 30, and not making that move back to 32 for Ogletree shows how fortunate they already knew they were.

Just because they gambled because they thought we could get him at 30 doesnt mean he wasnt at the Top of our Board. Thats exactly how you work a draft, to perfection. They got their 2 guys where they had to and thought they could. Doing a ton of pre-draft homework on other teams as well as the players is what allowed us to manipulate the Draft like that. Not "Oh well, he's still here and the only guy left we wanted, guess we should grab him"


You're saying the same things that I said:

A)Our front office exercised their will and came away happy.

B)There was a fallback option that they considered moving down from #30 and taking (in the event Ogletree was not still available).

C)It was a risk to move down from #22 to #30.

I have no doubt that Ogletree was their intended target, but reading between the lines, they felt comfortable enough to risk losing out on him by trading to #30. That suggests to me that their "fallback" plan at that pick was valued similarly to Ogltree.

You can say all you want about them feeling confident that no one aside from the Vikings were likely to select him, but that doesn't account for the possibility of a team trading up into #22-#29.
The nail-biting line was complete sarcasm, because they clearly wanted Ogletree, they took a calculated risk because they believed they could still get him at 30, they almost took him at 22, because they were already worried they might not get him at 30.

There would have been complete disappointment had Ogletree not been there at 30, they didnt want to take Warford there, or move down farther an miss out on top talent.

To say they would have been fine missing out on Ogletree is just wrong, and its your feelings that you are projecting into information we now have


And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
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FRO


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently Ogletree was top 5 on their board. You don't pass that up at 30.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
Which is False, reported by multiple people in the draft room.

Actually on one account he was #2 right behind Tavon Austin.
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FRO


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
Which is False, reported by multiple people in the draft room.

Actually on one account he was #2 right behind Tavon Austin.

And if that account is true, you don't pass on the 2 highest rated prospects on your board. Get players you love. Don't settle for depth. If you are drafting at a spot and aren't particularly in love with a prospect, then trade down from that spot.
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STLRamsFan99


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
That suggests to me that their "fallback" plan at that pick was valued similarly to Ogletree.


King from the Sports Illustrated Issue article on Rams War Room:

"The lone three-by-five-inch magnetic player card left on the top line of the Rams' board was Ogletree's, and all Snead, Fisher and Demoff had to go on now was a gut feeling that he had a chance to slip to No. 27 or 30."

To me that sounds like they really wanted him if before the drafted they rated him over the players mentioned and that fact that he was the only of their top players left and the fact of how nervous King portrayed Fisher and Snead about trading down.

I think of it more how Mayock stated about Snead playing poker and won that night.
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

STLRamsFan99 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
That suggests to me that their "fallback" plan at that pick was valued similarly to Ogletree.


King from the Sports Illustrated Issue article on Rams War Room:

"The lone three-by-five-inch magnetic player card left on the top line of the Rams' board was Ogletree's, and all Snead, Fisher and Demoff had to go on now was a gut feeling that he had a chance to slip to No. 27 or 30."

To me that sounds like they really wanted him if before the drafted they rated him over the players mentioned and that fact that he was the only of their top players left and the fact of how nervous King portrayed Fisher and Snead about trading down.

I think of it more how Mayock stated about Snead playing poker and won that night.


Peter King's job is to create intrigue in his articles, not to be representative of concise truth. Here's an example of what I mean, chosen from the above segment of his article.

"The lone 3x5 inch magnetic player card left on the top of the line.."

That's sensationalism, my friend. There can only be one name at the top at any given moment. To use this as evidence that they valued Ogletree vastly more than the next names in line is reaching at the least.

If you had read through what I have said on the matter, then you would have read that I think Fisher and Snead did exactly what they wanted to, and should be applauded.

If you are willing to gamble on a player being available 8 picks after you have a chance to select him, then it suggests that you have other prospects valued similarly, period. Otherwise, you wouldn't take the risk.
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FRO wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
Which is False, reported by multiple people in the draft room.

Actually on one account he was #2 right behind Tavon Austin.

And if that account is true, you don't pass on the 2 highest rated prospects on your board. Get players you love. Don't settle for depth. If you are drafting at a spot and aren't particularly in love with a prospect, then trade down from that spot.


This is exactly what I am saying. If they were in love with Ogletree, and had him rated much higher than the next few names on our big board, then we would have taken him at #22 and never looked back.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
FRO wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
Which is False, reported by multiple people in the draft room.

Actually on one account he was #2 right behind Tavon Austin.

And if that account is true, you don't pass on the 2 highest rated prospects on your board. Get players you love. Don't settle for depth. If you are drafting at a spot and aren't particularly in love with a prospect, then trade down from that spot.


This is exactly what I am saying. If they were in love with Ogletree, and had him rated much higher than the next few names on our big board, then we would have taken him at #22 and never looked back.


That's your assumption. An assumption that has no factual foundation.

You assume that they're afraid to take risks. I think Snead has proven that's not true.

So unless you're saying that the GM, Head Coach and journalist that were all in the draft room are wrong and you're right, I think I'm going to go with the people who aren't making assumptions. Hell, it's what I'd do(trade down...even if I rated Ogletree highly).
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chris00cm


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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
FRO wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
Which is False, reported by multiple people in the draft room.

Actually on one account he was #2 right behind Tavon Austin.

And if that account is true, you don't pass on the 2 highest rated prospects on your board. Get players you love. Don't settle for depth. If you are drafting at a spot and aren't particularly in love with a prospect, then trade down from that spot.


This is exactly what I am saying. If they were in love with Ogletree, and had him rated much higher than the next few names on our big board, then we would have taken him at #22 and never looked back.
Im sure if the Rams had a spare 2nd round pick, they probably would have done that.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:

Peter King's job is to create intrigue in his articles, not to be representative of concise truth. Here's an example of what I mean, chosen from the above segment of his article.

"The lone 3x5 inch magnetic player card left on the top of the line.."

That's sensationalism, my friend. There can only be one name at the top at any given moment. To use this as evidence that they valued Ogletree vastly more than the next names in line is reaching at the least.


What type of agenda are you trying to implying he had? He wanted to give readers an insight to a war room on draft day, why fabricate/embellish a story? Fisher, Snead, or any of the Rams staff haven't denied anything in the article to my knowledge.

The J.R.S. wrote:

If you had read through what I have said on the matter, then you would have read that I think Fisher and Snead did exactly what they wanted to, and should be applauded.

If you are willing to gamble on a player being available 8 picks after you have a chance to select him, then it suggests that you have other prospects valued similarly, period. Otherwise, you wouldn't take the risk.


He was their top player on the board and they really wanted him. Your entitled to your opinion but at this point I am going to believe Snead, Fisher, and King. They gambled and didn't have a great backup plan, they just wanted to recoup lost draft picks.
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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

would of stayed at 30. We really need a fast playmaking linebacker with the QB's in our division.

I think people are looking at this wrong. sure we could of gotten 3 guys who likely would of never made a pro bowl. Instead we got a top ten talent who could be one of the best in the league year after year.

We're starting to get enough depth all over. What we need now is playmakers and we got one of the best in the draft.
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