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Bookending our defensive line
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Freakout


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
Krauser wrote:
That sack was better than anything we saw from Allen all year.

err... it was a missed blocking assignment and he ran in untouched.

the sack was great and what he should have gone for, but he also had an chance to strip the ball and only be a few yards from the endzone.


What makes Griffen valuable is that he can play in a 4-3 or a 3-4. What was impressive about that sack was his closing speed. Stafford had no chance at all of running away from him.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freakout wrote:
What was impressive about that sack was his closing speed. Stafford had no chance at all of running away from him.

well yes, but...

Griffen was running full out and wasn't even chipped at the line.
Stafford is hardly a mobile, elusive qb.
our backfield must have had their targets covered well.

but yes, kudos to Griffen, and seeing he used to be a gunner on the kicking teams and would sometimes get to the receiver first, yeah he's fast!
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Longest Lurker


Joined: 10 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
Longest Lurker wrote:
Spielman likes to take educated gambles by taking players that are 4-5 years in the league and overpay them to "realize their potential" with multi-year deals. Sometimes it works (Shiancoe) and sometimes it doesn't (Berrian) and sometimes mixed (Carlson). Either way, this is RS signature move when it comes to multi-year deals in FA.

Spielman tends towards not extending offers to older players (8-12 years) - even if they play solid. I think this is more a business decision than anything as it is cheaper to go younger. JA offers leadership, but we have other veteran leaders on the DL (Robison).


Griffen's situation is different from most of the other external FA deals in that he's moving from a backup to a projected starter. Berrian was a starter in Chicago, more comparable to the Jennings signing. Carlson was injured. Shiancoe is a good comparison, never had more than 12 catches in a season as a backup with the Giants before coming to Minnesota, where he had 208 receptions and 27 TDs in 5 years.

...

Spielman has an excellent track record in knowing when to let players go. The last ex-Viking to have a great career after leaving Minnesota was Birk, who left in 2008 in part because he was feuding with Childress.

Since then, it's hard to put together a list of ex-Vikings who've excelled: Sharper had one great season with NO in 2009 but then barely played in 2010 and retired, McKinnie has been terrible but played well in the playoffs for the Ravens last year, Rice has had a few moments in Seattle between injuries, etc. Almost all of the players allowed to sign elsewhere or cut have done next to nothing since leaving Minnesota. Even Harvin hasn't done much so far.


Right. In one sense every FA signing is different than the next. I was just pointing out that besides the one-off signings that are for a specific purpose: Berrian = Vertical Threat, Favre = Leadership/arm talent, etc. I think RS likes to take players that is currently undervalued by his own team (backups roles due only to depth) and give them a multi-year deal if they are young, hungry and fit the locker room dynamic (Shaincoe, Chester Taylor, etc.). Not all of them were successful, but I think that is what he tries to do in many of his signings. I think Griffen fits this criteria (in regards to young with unreached potential).

I think that Griffen is a nominal backup, which isn't because of talent, but because of depth. It is not an indictment to his talent that he is a reserve role or "backup" player, but because who is playing in front of him. We just happen to have two really good DEs that are in front of him. I would venture to say that he would be a starter on many teams - he just carries the title of "backup" because he is with the Vikes. I think the impact he gets on the limited snap count bears this out.

It isn't like Griffen is a complete unknown. He has been in the league for a few years now and has played in a lot of situations and lot of positions including DE. So there is enough tape of him for proper evaluation at the DE spot. The same thing was said about BRob prior to his moving from "unknown backup DE" to solid starter DE. Similar situation in my view.

I also agree that Spielman has done a great job of who to let go as well. It is almost like he is clairvoyant. I think the medical staff do a great job of helping him understand who is likely to have a continued battle of injuries and who won't (ie S.Rice, Harvin).
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Longest Lurker


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
Krauser wrote:
That sack was better than anything we saw from Allen all year.

err... it was a missed blocking assignment and he ran in untouched.

the sack was great and what he should have gone for, but he also had an chance to strip the ball and only be a few yards from the endzone.


OK, hyperbole.

But most of Allen's sacks this year were coverage sacks and clean-up jobs on failed scrambles. Hard to think of a quick, explosive sack he had all year.

Best 2 sacks of the year from the DL were both Griffen's: today's and the one in Wembley where the fumble saved the game. And both were edge rushes.

Sign him, please.


Agree with this. We are used to seeing Allen "of old" bring the dominant "X" factor game, but that has sorely lacked this season. He is not the game-changer he once was, and that regression will only continue. I don't think the inevitable coaching or scheme change will matter much. I think they schemed this current defense to match his strengths primarily in the first place.

Not to mention, he is older and likely doesn't want to be coached in "new" ways. From what I gather in interviews, he likes to do "what he does" and not be coached away from his strengths or be asked to do something he perceives is "cute".
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5.5,6.5,7.5,8.5 - $17M G

How far off is this?
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the breakdown of the guaranteed? First year and a signing bonus?

Ideally I would prefer a three year deal, but that's not a bad breakdown. His cap hit would be pretty high year to year. Likely around...

8.5, 9.5, 10.5, and 11.5.

In hindsight it's way off... He would be making more than Robison.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could see something relatively similar to Robison's deal this year. The first two years of his base salary are basically guaranteed and because of that he only has a modest signing bonus. That controls his cap hit.
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Last edited by rpmwr19 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
What's the breakdown of the guaranteed? First year and a signing bonus?

Ideally I would prefer a three year deal, but that's not a bad breakdown. His cap hit would be pretty high year to year. Likely around...

8.5, 9.5, 10.5, and 11.5.

In hindsight it's way off... He would be making more than Robison.


When Robison was extended, in that thread I did say don't be surprised if Griffen possibly gets slighty more. It would based on current production, expected production, age, free agent market value.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CriminalMind wrote:
When Robison was extended, in that thread I did say don't be surprised if Griffen possibly gets more. It would based on current production, expected production, age, free agent market value.

That doesn't really fit Spielman's MO.

I wouldn't be surprised if the deal Griffen gets offered as the final contract by the Vikings is very similar to Robison's. I would be shocked if the overall value is greater.
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Krauser


Joined: 20 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
CriminalMind wrote:
When Robison was extended, in that thread I did say don't be surprised if Griffen possibly gets more. It would based on current production, expected production, age, free agent market value.

That doesn't really fit Spielman's MO.

I wouldn't be surprised if the deal Griffen gets offered as the final contract by the Vikings is very similar to Robison's. I would be shocked if the overall value is greater.


Don't be shocked. His overall value is greater.

Robison got his initial extension at age 27, Griffen is 26.

Robison had 13.5 career sacks in his first 4 years, and had just finished the 2010 season where he had 2 sacks. He was graded 44th in the league that year in PFF's pass rush productivity for 4-3 DE's, rushing mostly from LDE as Edwards' backup. Robison had 6.5 sacks in 2009-10.

Griffen has 17.5 career sacks in 3 years (he hardly played as a rookie) and just finished a season in which he had 5.5 sacks rushing mostly from DT in nickel packages. He'll likely be top 10-12 in PFF grading of 4-3 DE's. Griffen had 13.5 sacks in 2012-13.

There is not a team in the league who would take Robison 2010 over Griffen 2013. Griffen's younger, better, and projects to start at a more premium position.

He's poised to be a breakout star as soon as he gets to play DE. Vikings better lock him up long term, no need to have him hit the market again in 3 years, just when they'll need to extend their 2012-13 1st round picks. Having the guaranteed money mostly up front (big cap number in 2014, when they can afford it) would be the smart thing to do.


Last edited by Krauser on Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair points all around.

In case it wasn't clear I was referring to the contract that Robison just signed, not his initial extension.
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
Fair points all around.

In case it wasn't clear I was referring to the contract that Robison just signed, not his initial extension.


Oh sorry, misread you.

Even then, the age difference and the position difference should tip the balance in Griffen's favor.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robison was under contract, both times when he received a new contract.

My biggest concern with Griffen's potential deal is that if he does get a chance to test the free agent market and there is considerable demand, how much will that inflate his free agent contract? Do the Vikings even let him get the opportunity to test the free agent market? How much would it cost to sign Griffen pre-free agency? What incentive does Griffen have to sign a deal prior to free agency? These are just some questions and concerns that I have related to his value.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the structure of Robison's deal make sense for Griffen. There is still a lot of unknown about Griffen being a primary rushing end. A small signing bonus, guaranteed base salaries for two years, and sack escalators makes a great deal of sense to me.

The contract really is a thing of beauty and is extremely cap friendly.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Griffen is likely our best DE on this team now and going forward.
He should be awarded with a contract similar & possibly a bit higher then whaf Robison recent deal.

Drafting Nix and retaining Griffen could give us one of the most dominant young front 4 D-Line.

I think Nix is a type of Rick move if we don't retain Allen/Guion/K-Will coupled with the QBs being taken already.
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