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persiandud


Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 852
Location: Davis, CA
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
persiandud wrote:
^ Truth, if you guys remember when Nick picks a pass off, he hits another gear and flies down the field. Dude was a playmaker and a complete stud.


You are only remembering part of Collins. Especially his first few years, he blew a ton of coverages wide open. It took him YEARS to LEARN to be a good S. He had the talent from day 1, but he had to grow into it. It wasn't until Collins 4th season that he really started to shine. Even then, he was prone to occasional lapses. Burnett has had two full season as a starter and the first was coming off a major injury his rookie year. He's shown ability and growth over that time, but I don't think he's gotten to that point where the game has FULLY clicked for him.


I am well aware, I've been watching the Packers since I was 8. My comment was in response to wgbeethree and about Collins' top end speed. The guy wasn't a stud from day 1; in fact I remember being mad when Ted drafted him, thought it was a waste of a pick.
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JBURGE25


Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 11587
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

persiandud wrote:
spilltray wrote:
persiandud wrote:
^ Truth, if you guys remember when Nick picks a pass off, he hits another gear and flies down the field. Dude was a playmaker and a complete stud.


You are only remembering part of Collins. Especially his first few years, he blew a ton of coverages wide open. It took him YEARS to LEARN to be a good S. He had the talent from day 1, but he had to grow into it. It wasn't until Collins 4th season that he really started to shine. Even then, he was prone to occasional lapses. Burnett has had two full season as a starter and the first was coming off a major injury his rookie year. He's shown ability and growth over that time, but I don't think he's gotten to that point where the game has FULLY clicked for him.


I am well aware, I've been watching the Packers since I was 8. My comment was in response to wgbeethree and about Collins' top end speed. The guy wasn't a stud from day 1; in fact I remember being mad when Ted drafted him, thought it was a waste of a pick.


Nick Collins is my all time favourite Packer. I hate seeing people talk about him now
Laughing ..... Sad
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byzr


Joined: 31 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think we have YOUNG talent at S and it will develop. however the secondary can never compensate for not having a pass rush from the front 7. once our d-line gets more pressure without having to rush 3 LBers our secondary is going to look a lot better IMO. Jennings and McMillan are a toss up in my opinion right now.
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palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spilltray wrote:
blankman0021 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
I feel this Packers team has one very good safety(Burnett) and one very nice looking prospect(McMillian). The issue is that Capers often plays with three of them on the field and Jennings is "just a guy" in every way. Jennings did play a good bit better than I felt he would last year. But that has far more to do with the fact that I had set the bar so low for him. I think I would let it play out a little longer. But there is a good chance an upgrade will be needed at some point IMO. My hope is that Jennings lived in the weight room this off-season and the game will slow down a great deal for McMillian going into year two.

Good chance they will go into this thing this year with this group if they don't pull in a vet in the very near future. This Capers fit is hell to learn at the safety position and there is true value in the fact the guys in this room have been here and done it. Going to be hard for any FA to beat them out if ya ask me.


People keep mentioning how hard it is to play safety for Capers. What makes it harder to play safety in his defense compared to others? jw


The many different look and coverage combos. Needing to read the offense to figure out the coverage. Showing one coverage pre snap while playing a different one, being able to play FS/SS fairly interchangeably and run everything from deep zone shells to man on man blitzing, and everything in between. Basically, anything any S has to do in the NFL, in any scheme, sometimes you have to be able to do that in the Capers scheme. It requires a wide range of skills and the knowledge to be able to execute it.


All this and then some. LIS, big reason why there is and premium on reps played at safety, reps played in the fit, and why I don't love the idea of moving a college CB. That idea of moving the college CB keeps coming my way and all I can say is go look at the Tebow's OT win over my Steelers two years ago! Also, why Troy at 32 years of age and Ryan at 34 years of age are still the best pair in the league FOR US.
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palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PacAttack04 wrote:
Palmy, couldn't, instead of a 3 safety look, just have us play 4 CBs, 2 safeties? Obviously, Capers likes his 3 safety look, but with our team, clearly it makes more sense to have 4 CBs, 2 safeties instead of 3 CB, 3 Safeties. Or even a 2 safety, 3 CB look instead of 3 safety, 2 CB look


I'm not real sure what you mean? Capers has ran 4 CB's out there often. The Capers/Lebeau 30 is just one that plays that 3rd safety far more often than others. That's all, nothing more really. I mean, McMillian had a ton of snaps last year as the 3rd safety. You can just do more of the things they like to do with that mold of player in the dime pack.
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CentralFC


Joined: 03 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
spilltray wrote:
blankman0021 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
I feel this Packers team has one very good safety(Burnett) and one very nice looking prospect(McMillian). The issue is that Capers often plays with three of them on the field and Jennings is "just a guy" in every way. Jennings did play a good bit better than I felt he would last year. But that has far more to do with the fact that I had set the bar so low for him. I think I would let it play out a little longer. But there is a good chance an upgrade will be needed at some point IMO. My hope is that Jennings lived in the weight room this off-season and the game will slow down a great deal for McMillian going into year two.

Good chance they will go into this thing this year with this group if they don't pull in a vet in the very near future. This Capers fit is hell to learn at the safety position and there is true value in the fact the guys in this room have been here and done it. Going to be hard for any FA to beat them out if ya ask me.


People keep mentioning how hard it is to play safety for Capers. What makes it harder to play safety in his defense compared to others? jw


The many different look and coverage combos. Needing to read the offense to figure out the coverage. Showing one coverage pre snap while playing a different one, being able to play FS/SS fairly interchangeably and run everything from deep zone shells to man on man blitzing, and everything in between. Basically, anything any S has to do in the NFL, in any scheme, sometimes you have to be able to do that in the Capers scheme. It requires a wide range of skills and the knowledge to be able to execute it.


All this and then some. LIS, big reason why there is and premium on reps played at safety, reps played in the fit, and why I don't love the idea of moving a college CB. That idea of moving the college CB keeps coming my way and all I can say is go look at the Tebow's OT win over my Steelers two years ago! Also, why Troy at 32 years of age and Ryan at 34 years of age are still the best pair in the league FOR US.


Except on a certain day in February of 2011 Wink
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I'd argue Jordy is probably around the 30th-40th best receiver in the NFL, maybe 50th.
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palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are not a nice man, Central..... Laughing
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palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PossibleCabbage wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
No way I move one of the better young slot CB's in the league at a time there is a true premium on space play for what he would bring ya back there. Hayward is physical enough for the body types he plays over slot. But he is a cut tackle guy and would not do as well playing the body types he would see down field.


One could make an argument that the single most important player in the secondary in this day and age's NFL is the slot CB. Not only is 3rd and 2+ a passing down for darn near every NFL team that doesn't have Adrian Peterson, but teams regularly move guys around to the slot just because they want to get them open (the Packers did this a lot with Jennings.)

Winning on defense is about winning on third downs (or creating turnovers) and it's really hard to win on defense when the guy in the slot can't win individual matchups (just look at Arenas in KC last year.)

No way I would move Hayward anywhere. He's potentially elite at arguably the most valuable position in the secondary, even if he's not on the field for the 12 snaps/game Capers plays base.

Honestly wonder if Capers might not throw in some 3-3-5 on money downs this year.


I'm not sure I could go there. But with the new rules there is a very real premium on skills players that can excel in space right now. I mean, if someone told me tens years ago a slot would go top10 I would have told them they were crazy and it was a HUGE mistake. As is, that was a damn fine pick by the Rams. In that, clearly there is also a premium on the guys that cover them as well though. TT was lucky to find a stud in Hayward. As a fan, I always go back and watch over the Packers games post season. Hayward was even better than given credit for. That kid is the TRUTH!
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dijatool


Joined: 17 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
I'm not sure I could go there. But with the new rules there is a very real premium on skills players that can excel in space right now. I mean, if someone told me tens years ago a slot would go top10 I would have told them they were crazy and it was a HUGE mistake. As is, that was a damn fine pick by the Rams. In that, clearly there is also a premium on the guys that cover them as well though. TT was lucky to find a stud in Hayward. As a fan, I always go back and watch over the Packers games post season. Hayward was even better than given credit for. That kid is the TRUTH!

How do Hayward's talents in the slot square with his desire to be the starter outside? And if he gets the job this year, who is the best fit for the slot?
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dijatool wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
I'm not sure I could go there. But with the new rules there is a very real premium on skills players that can excel in space right now. I mean, if someone told me tens years ago a slot would go top10 I would have told them they were crazy and it was a HUGE mistake. As is, that was a damn fine pick by the Rams. In that, clearly there is also a premium on the guys that cover them as well though. TT was lucky to find a stud in Hayward. As a fan, I always go back and watch over the Packers games post season. Hayward was even better than given credit for. That kid is the TRUTH!

How do Hayward's talents in the slot square with his desire to be the starter outside? And if he gets the job this year, who is the best fit for the slot?


They all want to be starters on the outside because those guys get paid. Fact is Hayward is far more special inside over the slot than he is outside. Kid can play out there but I like Williams, Shields, and House out there just as much. It's like House but the other way around with Hayward. House could probably play inside but his game/set plays much better out wide.
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justo


Joined: 05 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
dijatool wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
I'm not sure I could go there. But with the new rules there is a very real premium on skills players that can excel in space right now. I mean, if someone told me tens years ago a slot would go top10 I would have told them they were crazy and it was a HUGE mistake. As is, that was a damn fine pick by the Rams. In that, clearly there is also a premium on the guys that cover them as well though. TT was lucky to find a stud in Hayward. As a fan, I always go back and watch over the Packers games post season. Hayward was even better than given credit for. That kid is the TRUTH!

How do Hayward's talents in the slot square with his desire to be the starter outside? And if he gets the job this year, who is the best fit for the slot?


They all want to be starters on the outside because those guys get paid. Fact is Hayward is far more special inside over the slot than he is outside. Kid can play out there but I like Williams, Shields, and House out there just as much. It's like House but the other way around with Hayward. House could probably play inside but his game/set plays much better out wide.


Can I ask what separates the inside/outside CBs in your opinion? Quicker guys in the slot but better man coverage on the outside?
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palmy50


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

justo wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
dijatool wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
I'm not sure I could go there. But with the new rules there is a very real premium on skills players that can excel in space right now. I mean, if someone told me tens years ago a slot would go top10 I would have told them they were crazy and it was a HUGE mistake. As is, that was a damn fine pick by the Rams. In that, clearly there is also a premium on the guys that cover them as well though. TT was lucky to find a stud in Hayward. As a fan, I always go back and watch over the Packers games post season. Hayward was even better than given credit for. That kid is the TRUTH!

How do Hayward's talents in the slot square with his desire to be the starter outside? And if he gets the job this year, who is the best fit for the slot?


They all want to be starters on the outside because those guys get paid. Fact is Hayward is far more special inside over the slot than he is outside. Kid can play out there but I like Williams, Shields, and House out there just as much. It's like House but the other way around with Hayward. House could probably play inside but his game/set plays much better out wide.


Can I ask what separates the inside/outside CBs in your opinion? Quicker guys in the slot but better man coverage on the outside?


More often than not ya want long speed/length on the outside and quicks/instincts on the inside. Clearly there are exceptions for every rule. But Hayward is a clear example of a guy that looks the parts inside a good bit more than outside as is House the other way around. Think of it the same way ya would at WR. Wes Welker is a stud in the slot but anything but special out wide. Then take Randy Moss and think about what he would be at slot.
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justo


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
justo wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
dijatool wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
I'm not sure I could go there. But with the new rules there is a very real premium on skills players that can excel in space right now. I mean, if someone told me tens years ago a slot would go top10 I would have told them they were crazy and it was a HUGE mistake. As is, that was a damn fine pick by the Rams. In that, clearly there is also a premium on the guys that cover them as well though. TT was lucky to find a stud in Hayward. As a fan, I always go back and watch over the Packers games post season. Hayward was even better than given credit for. That kid is the TRUTH!

How do Hayward's talents in the slot square with his desire to be the starter outside? And if he gets the job this year, who is the best fit for the slot?


They all want to be starters on the outside because those guys get paid. Fact is Hayward is far more special inside over the slot than he is outside. Kid can play out there but I like Williams, Shields, and House out there just as much. It's like House but the other way around with Hayward. House could probably play inside but his game/set plays much better out wide.


Can I ask what separates the inside/outside CBs in your opinion? Quicker guys in the slot but better man coverage on the outside?


More often than not ya want long speed/length on the outside and quicks/instincts on the inside. Clearly there are exceptions for every rule. But Hayward is a clear example of a guy that looks the parts inside a good bit more than outside as is House the other way around. Think of it the same way ya would at WR. Wes Welker is a stud in the slot but anything but special out wide. Then take Randy Moss and think about what he would be at slot.
Thanks. It's what I assumed but I wasn't totally sure.
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ChaRisMa


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still waiting for Woodson to be brought back. 4 man safety rotation playing to each guys strengths (Burnett always on field). Woodson near the line and in the slot. Jennings on obvious passes. McMillian on medium distances.

We do enough three safety sets to justify it. Obviously we cant telegraph what each safety is doing, we'd have to keep offenses honest with each guy. But that is my dream.
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SDN40


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Woodson, its not about finding his place, its probably about knowing his place. I love the guy, its the only jersey I own, but you know the guy isn't going to go from 10 million per to 1 million per. Unfortunately, thats what can happen in the span of one year. I'm sure he could land a spot, but teams don't even bother because they know the price tag far outweighs his worth at this time. Sad but true.
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