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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deathstar wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:

Our most two athletic safeties are McMillian and Richardson, Richardson is the real only insanely athletic guy for his 220 size. Burnett had good workout numbers, but they don't translate to the field. His range is poor for and his instincts have been downright bad. Jennings is an average athlete for an NFL safety. I wouldn't call any of our safeties "insanely" athletic, Nick Collins was an insane athlete, and that's what one looks like on the field. I have high hopes for Richardson and McMillian because those numbers are great, but they mean nothing if they don't carry over to the field.


Again I don't think this is very accurate. The first 2-3 years people would say the same thing about Collins. Then he started causing turnovers and people took notice of how good he had been. Now, Collins had a legit shot at the hall of fame so comparing the players is faulty. I think, though, that a lot of the good Burnett does only shows up on the all-22.


I still can't get over Burnett in the San Fran game. That Kaep 56 yard touchdown he took himself out of the play starting 20 yards deep!! Collins first 2-3 years were riddled with communication problems because he was paired with Manuel and Mark Roman and also had a learning disability I believe. Charles Woodson took him under his wing and it all clicked.

Collins is a terrible comparison for Burnett, I agree. Burnett showed he can be a starting safety to me in 2011, but he regressed last year, and the instincts just aren't there. He's 24 and has room to grow, but his early years are not comparable to Collins IMO, there were reasons Nick struggled and they aren't close to the same reasons Burnett did.
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wgbeethree


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
Nick Collins was an insane athlete, and that's what one looks like on the field.


Morgan Burnett's proday numbers where better than Nick Collins' combine numbers almost across the board. Nick Collins though had AMAZING top end speed which Burnett does not. It's kind of comparing apples to oranges because of proday numbers but...
Burnett is every bit as athletic as Collins was coming out of dchool minus the top end speed.
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deathstar


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess my point is that I wouldn't describe either as having struggled through their first few years. They both made boneheaded plays, agreed. Even going in to Collins' final season he was making communication errors - remember that long TD we gave up to Colston because Collins' coverage error? More often than not, though, I'd bet on Burnett (and Collins) making right decisions. I just think we can't really judge a safety's play by watching the TV tape.
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Kampman74


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I am guessing that the we the draft went that the coaching staff and Ted are telling us that they are fine with what we have at safety and are just going to have to wait and see for the next guy to step up.
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wgbeethree wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
Nick Collins was an insane athlete, and that's what one looks like on the field.


Morgan Burnett's proday numbers where better than Nick Collins' combine numbers almost across the board. Nick Collins though had AMAZING top end speed which Burnett does not. It's kind of comparing apples to oranges because of proday numbers but...
Burnett is every bit as athletic as Collins was coming out of dchool minus the top end speed.


Collins was timed as low as 4.28 at the combine, Burnett is a 4.5 guy. Their jumps and short agility stuff were the same, but I would never call a 4.5 guy and a sub 4.3 guy equal athletes. Burnett has all the physical skills to be great, and I know what your saying, but throw the numbers out the window and watch them play football, Collins athleticism translated on the field, and the reason we talk about needing a "centerfield" type safety is because Burnett hasn't shown that.
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PossibleCabbage


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kampman74 wrote:
Well I am guessing that the we the draft went that the coaching staff and Ted are telling us that they are fine with what we have at safety and are just going to have to wait and see for the next guy to step up.


I think the real issue is that playing Safety in this defense is hard (especially the mental aspect). So you don't necessarily improve your defense by replacing a mediocre safety who knows what he's doing with a slightly less mediocre safety who doesn't know what he's doing.

It wasn't necessarily worth spending a late round pick on a S because even if that guy's moderately talented, he's a year behind McMillan and 2 years behind Doc Jennings.
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packrules7896


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

god, we finally found a replacement for Cullen Jenkins. Hopefully the secondary won't be the achilles heel this year. But yall are always talking about how much a great front 7 can make a difference in the secondary. I whole-heartedly agree. Hopefully the additions to the front 7 can some what make up for what is missing in the secondary. That being said, we aren't going to have all stars at every position, and not every back up can be good starter quality (contrary to some beliefs). It's just not possible lol. The D will be much improved this season all around. And of course, with any prediction that involves the packer, I must put the mandatory "barring injury bug" disclaimer in my post.
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Pugger


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blankman0021 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
McThreadski wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
McThreadski wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
McThreadski wrote:
Mark me down for McMillian.


I look for a very nice year from McMillian also. Not the issue here though IMO. The issue is the guy playing the deep half as it stands today, Jennings. I just don't feel great about our last line of defense being our least talented starter!


I added a few thoughts, but my take on it is that Burnett can play centerfield and let McMillian play in the box. Burnett is good in coverage and he has good ball skills, he just doesn't play hardnose enough in the middle of the field, but McMillian does. I think all they have to do is swap out the expectations and we have our pair.


Again, not the issue. I do feel they have a "pair" they can hang their hat on moving ahead. One needs to understand this Capers defense though. Man plays with three of them out there OFTEN. Only way you can pair those three and make it work is to do so as they did last year.

The further McMillian gets down field the less I like him and the closer Jennings gets to the snap point the less I like him. This has also played hell on Burnett's game. That fit is tough enough when your not flipping around pending those on the field like Burnett often did last year.


If that's the case, you aren't looking at the "base" package anymore. You are looking at a guy like Hyde coming in and being that third, or you are asking House or Hayward to play that role. If it really comes down to a "center fielder" type, assuming all other things are constant, then you hope Tramon and Hayward are good in coverage and you put Shields back there, as he is by far the most instinctual player we have in the defensive backfield and he has the speed to make up for his "misses" when it comes to reading the deep routes.


Few things with that one:

1) I hope one understands how little Capers plays base D.
2) The idea of Hyde coming in and being that safety this year scares the hell out of me.
3) No way do I take Shield away from his man skills to play the deep half.
4) Shields is anything but "by far the most instinctual player we have in the defensive backfield". Not many flaws in his game and he is not weak there either. But one could make a strong case that that's the weakest link in his game. Again, not a issue. But a guy like Hayward is FAR more instinctual than Shields is.


Any chance we'd bring Woodson back to play in front of Jennings. Jennings has a clear speed lean on Woodson, but a healthy Woodson can think much faster than Jennings can.

Or, did we completely burn the Woodson bridge by cutting him. Especially because I don't see us asking him back at anything but vet min salary.


I don't think we burned any bridges with Woodson - just the opposite in fact. But seeing he is still unemployed speaks volumes, wouldn't you say? Sad
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wgbeethree


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
wgbeethree wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
Nick Collins was an insane athlete, and that's what one looks like on the field.


Morgan Burnett's proday numbers where better than Nick Collins' combine numbers almost across the board. Nick Collins though had AMAZING top end speed which Burnett does not. It's kind of comparing apples to oranges because of proday numbers but...
Burnett is every bit as athletic as Collins was coming out of dchool minus the top end speed.


Collins was timed as low as 4.28 at the combine, Burnett is a 4.5 guy. Their jumps and short agility stuff were the same, but I would never call a 4.5 guy and a sub 4.3 guy equal athletes. Burnett has all the physical skills to be great, and I know what your saying, but throw the numbers out the window and watch them play football, Collins athleticism translated on the field, and the reason we talk about needing a "centerfield" type safety is because Burnett hasn't shown that.


I just think comparing anyone to Collins is unfair due to his absolutely incredible top end speed. There isn't going to be a safety that comes along anytime soon that'll be able to match it. His top end speed (40 yard dash- 20 yard split) is just incredible.
For comparison- every player (I think) since 99 to break 4.30 in the forty's top end speed.....
Johnson 1.83
DHB 1.75
Routt 1.78
Goodwin 1.80
Van Dyke 1.75
Bailey 1.79
Ford 1.78
Robinson 1.80
Holiday 1.74
DRC 1.78

NICK COLLINS 1.74
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Kampman74


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

packrules7896 wrote:
god, we finally found a replacement for Cullen Jenkins. Hopefully the secondary won't be the achilles heel this year. But yall are always talking about how much a great front 7 can make a difference in the secondary. I whole-heartedly agree. Hopefully the additions to the front 7 can some what make up for what is missing in the secondary. That being said, we aren't going to have all stars at every position, and not every back up can be good starter quality (contrary to some beliefs). It's just not possible lol. The D will be much improved this season all around. And of course, with any prediction that involves the packer, I must put the mandatory "barring injury bug" disclaimer in my post.



Bingo imagine how long our secondary is going to have to cover when Clay, Bish, Perry, Neal and Da Tone Setter Jones are coming after you. Heck I even left out one guy cause that isn't even fair.
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persiandud


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Truth, if you guys remember when Nick picks a pass off, he hits another gear and flies down the field. Dude was a playmaker and a complete stud.
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Kampman74


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

persiandud wrote:
^ Truth, if you guys remember when Nick picks a pass off, he hits another gear and flies down the field. Dude was a playmaker and a complete stud.


Oh I am not saying that Collins wasn't a gamechanger and a stud and was playing like a hall of fame safety, I am saying that if I were to build a team I would go front seven or dline if a 43 team every time over the backfield.
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wgbeethree wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
wgbeethree wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
Nick Collins was an insane athlete, and that's what one looks like on the field.


Morgan Burnett's proday numbers where better than Nick Collins' combine numbers almost across the board. Nick Collins though had AMAZING top end speed which Burnett does not. It's kind of comparing apples to oranges because of proday numbers but...
Burnett is every bit as athletic as Collins was coming out of dchool minus the top end speed.


Collins was timed as low as 4.28 at the combine, Burnett is a 4.5 guy. Their jumps and short agility stuff were the same, but I would never call a 4.5 guy and a sub 4.3 guy equal athletes. Burnett has all the physical skills to be great, and I know what your saying, but throw the numbers out the window and watch them play football, Collins athleticism translated on the field, and the reason we talk about needing a "centerfield" type safety is because Burnett hasn't shown that.


I just think comparing anyone to Collins is unfair due to his absolutely incredible top end speed. There isn't going to be a safety that comes along anytime soon that'll be able to match it. His top end speed (40 yard dash- 20 yard split) is just incredible.
For comparison- every player (I think) since 99 to break 4.30 in the forty's top end speed.....
Johnson 1.83
DHB 1.75
Routt 1.78
Goodwin 1.80
Van Dyke 1.75
Bailey 1.79
Ford 1.78
Robinson 1.80
Holiday 1.74
DRC 1.78

NICK COLLINS 1.74


If you take the 4.28 he got timed in at the low end by scouts its 1.66. Shocked

Surprised he hasn't looked into track now that injuries will keep him from contact sports.
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persiandud


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kampman74 wrote:
persiandud wrote:
^ Truth, if you guys remember when Nick picks a pass off, he hits another gear and flies down the field. Dude was a playmaker and a complete stud.


Oh I am not saying that Collins wasn't a gamechanger and a stud and was playing like a hall of fame safety, I am saying that if I were to build a team I would go front seven or dline if a 43 team every time over the backfield.


My comment was to wgbee haha my bad. You commented right before I did.
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spilltray


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

persiandud wrote:
^ Truth, if you guys remember when Nick picks a pass off, he hits another gear and flies down the field. Dude was a playmaker and a complete stud.


You are only remembering part of Collins. Especially his first few years, he blew a ton of coverages wide open. It took him YEARS to LEARN to be a good S. He had the talent from day 1, but he had to grow into it. It wasn't until Collins 4th season that he really started to shine. Even then, he was prone to occasional lapses. Burnett has had two full season as a starter and the first was coming off a major injury his rookie year. He's shown ability and growth over that time, but I don't think he's gotten to that point where the game has FULLY clicked for him.
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