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MaddHatter


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject: Question regarding Ozzie as GM Reply with quote

During the season and then during the offseason leading up to the draft, how much time and effort do you guys think Ozzie puts into actually scouting players? Not discussing them with scouts, but watching tape and scouting them himself?
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santiagomn8


Joined: 27 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think Ozzie personally goes out to scout most players but he watches tape on almost all players recommended by his scouts he spends plenty of time looking at tape and creating his big board
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't something any of us can answer without it being a total guess.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't know what knowledge had been disseminated down to the fans and what might have been leaked out by current or former FO personnel. Was just curious b/c there's been a ton of speculation nationally and I was curious if there was more knowledge local
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I don't think it's ever been directly reported, based on press conferences and such, I believe this is the way it works at least for the Ravens, and I'd imagine most teams:

- Local scouts get their grades, pass it up to regional scouts

- Regional scouts keep an eye on high grades from local scouts, make their grades, pass it to head scout

- Head scout takes those highest ranked guys, determines their grade, and pass it up the chain

And all the way up to the big wigs in charge.

So, essentially, I'm sure Ozzie has studied film of each and ever selection he makes and probably hundreds of guys between he and DeCosta -- but in terms of who they actually look at, I think they rely on the lower scouts to say "Hey, take a look at these X number of players".
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stinky


Joined: 26 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like to think he doesn't look at game tape at all. It makes it easier to forgive him for guys like Yamon Figurs.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinky wrote:
I like to think he doesn't look at game tape at all. It makes it easier to forgive him for guys like Yamon Figurs.


Terrible pick in hindsight (and didn't even look particularly good at the time), but I understand Ozzie's thinking on that one. Figurs was identified as a 'red star' player during the scouting period, which meant that the organization thought extremely highly of his work ethic and character. It seems like when we approach drafting for defense, we tend to really like 'red star' type players who might not be exceptionally gifted physically but love football, have sound fundamentals, work hard, and are extremely coachable. On offense, it seems like we sort of like the opposite: particularly because this was Cam Cameron's offense for a time, we looked for physical talent and speed that could be coached up into a more solid fundamental player. They like those 'red star' players because they believe our coaching staff can make most of them play beyond their existing abilities or find their untapped potential.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I imagine they saw similar things in Figurs that they ended up seeing in Torrey Smith: Dizzying speed and tremendous character and work ethic who, if they actually learn how to play the wide receiver position, could be big-time players. Even though Torrey put up pretty decent numbers at Maryland, he had to basically re-learn how to run a route once he got to the NFL as well as changing his catching technique.

It worked with Torrey, but failed with Figurs. Still, if they HAD managed to teach Figurs how to play wideout, he would have been a great player for us. Even a great GM like Ozzie is going to lose on some of those gambles.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
stinky wrote:
I like to think he doesn't look at game tape at all. It makes it easier to forgive him for guys like Yamon Figurs.


Terrible pick in hindsight (and didn't even look particularly good at the time), but I understand Ozzie's thinking on that one. Figurs was identified as a 'red star' player during the scouting period, which meant that the organization thought extremely highly of his work ethic and character. It seems like when we approach drafting for defense, we tend to really like 'red star' type players who might not be exceptionally gifted physically but love football, have sound fundamentals, work hard, and are extremely coachable. On offense, it seems like we sort of like the opposite: particularly because this was Cam Cameron's offense for a time, we looked for physical talent and speed that could be coached up into a more solid fundamental player. They like those 'red star' players because they believe our coaching staff can make most of them play beyond their existing abilities or find their untapped potential.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I imagine they saw similar things in Figurs that they ended up seeing in Torrey Smith: Dizzying speed and tremendous character and work ethic who, if they actually learn how to play the wide receiver position, could be big-time players. Even though Torrey put up pretty decent numbers at Maryland, he had to basically re-learn how to run a route once he got to the NFL as well as changing his catching technique.

It worked with Torrey, but failed with Figurs. Still, if they HAD managed to teach Figurs how to play wideout, he would have been a great player for us. Even a great GM like Ozzie is going to lose on some of those gambles.


This. Easy to look at some picks that don't work out, but Ozzie's resume over a 17-yr period is incredible.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being a fan of the Steelers and having what I feel is one of the two best GM's in the league, here's my take on this, it's the same take I have on Colbert actually.


Do I think that Ozzie Newsome (or Kevin Colbert) goes out and scouts every single player? No, of course not. But I do believe there are probably some guys that he finds as 'must self evaluate'. Probably more so during the combine and things like that, where he DOES go out and personally watch the guys work out and take a personal analysis. I'm sure he and the coaches sit down and look at the game film, to some degree, of guys that they really love and then simply listens to the 'recon' and reads the analysis on other guys. I think they have a scouting department for a reason and people like Ozzie Newsome and Kevin Colbert put a ton of trust into their scouting department. Sometimes, like Yamon Figurs and Limas Sweed, more trust than they should.

Leading up to the draft I believe there is a lot of preparation being done by guys like Colbert & Newsome. How they're preparing I have no idea. But I find it hard to believe you can be as successful of a GM has Newsome and Colbert have been in their tenures with the Ravens and Steelers respetively and NOT be well prepared.
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mcdni


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes Ozzie good is he and the Ravens rarely draft early round busts.

For every Red Star like Figurs (drafted middle of 3rd round I think), there is a Ray Rice (another Red Star player drafted in the 2nd round).

Ozzie rarely makes the same mistake twice and he is very good at evaluating the top talent in the draft.
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stinky


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean for it to sound as if I was doubting Ozzie. He's done at least as well as any other GM, during the time he has been in charge. Sometimes I just feel that people turn a bit of a blind eye to his mistakes. He's our guy, and it's cool that everyone loves him. Still, I think we sometimes underestimate some of his peers like Ted Thompson, Jerry Reese, or Alex Dimitroff (maybe an odd pick on my part).
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinky wrote:
I didn't mean for it to sound as if I was doubting Ozzie. He's done at least as well as any other GM, during the time he has been in charge. Sometimes I just feel that people turn a bit of a blind eye to his mistakes. He's our guy, and it's cool that everyone loves him. Still, I think we sometimes underestimate some of his peers like Ted Thompson, Jerry Reese, or Alex Dimitroff (maybe an odd pick on my part).
Tom Dimitroff you mean?

And I didn't mean my post to be antagonistic or overly defensive of Ozzie... it just so happens I was thinking about that Figurs pick just the other day so when I saw your post I already had some thoughts floating around in my head on it, so I had at it.

The thing about Ozzie is that we can all agree that he makes mistakes. That's the nature of the game. The draft isn't about picking sure things, it's about making calculated gambles and hedging your bets in such a way that you come out profiting even when you lose a couple of those bets. And I think that's something Ozzie does really well. He's far from the only great GM in this league, but I also don't think he necessarily has to take a backseat to anyone. Whether someone prefers a Ted Thompson or Kevin Colbert or the less seasoned hotshots like John Schneider or Trent Baalke, you're always negotiating an argument on the margins, because no one is going to blow Ozzie out of the water.

To me, while he's the GM and ultimately he owns accountability on any roster move we make, draft picks and the like are by nature a collaborative effort. Harbaugh has clearly put a personal stamp on the drafting process since coming to Baltimore, particularly in terms of the kinds of players who warrant 'red star' grades and how much we vie for players who exude team player qualities. DeCosta has been deemed a valuable enough part of the process that Bisciotti has basically written him a blank check and locked him in the Castle, insistent that he will do nothing aside from take over from Ozzie when the time comes. The 20/20 scouts, working 20 hours a day for 20k a year break down an impossible amount of film and help shape the draft board from the ground up, are a valuable cog in the machine. Ozzie's at the top, and he's got a methodology in place that helps make this organization hum. And that's what I think his greatest strength is, just a consistent philosophy that almost never lets us overpay players and makes sure our draft board reflects an intuitive understanding of who is not just the best talents, but the best talents who uniquely fit the Ravens mold. He's not just a guy who knows how to break down film, he's a chief executive who can churn out a profit in his sleep.
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stinky


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, Tom Dimitroff. I had a little brain fart there. As for the rest of what you said, you'll get no argument from me. One point you raised that I do think is particularly interesting is the idea of how the team changes its approach to drafting when a new coach like Harbaugh come in. It certainly does seem that Harbaugh desires certain character traits more so than we might have in the past.
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Boodgyman5220


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

along with yamon figurs, you have to remember the rest of the draft that cam with him. Ben grubbs, marshal yanda, and leron mcclain. All of whom were big time players with us. He also chose to keep only yanda. And found great, or better replacements in leech and osemele
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stinky


Joined: 26 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boodgyman5220 wrote:
along with yamon figurs, you have to remember the rest of the draft that cam with him. Ben grubbs, marshal yanda, and leron mcclain. All of whom were big time players with us. He also chose to keep only yanda. And found great, or better replacements in leech and osemele


Yeah, I get it. In the end Ozzie still had a very good draft that year. The only reason that the Figurs pick sticks in my head was that it just didn't make much sense to me. His best statistical year in college was 418 yards. Sure, he ran a 4.3 forty, but how often does someone really develop into a quality receiver when they had that little production? There is the 'he was meant to be a kick returner' argument, but I also don't like the idea of drafting guys that high for special teams roles. Just my opinion, so no offense intended towards Ozzie. Laurent Robinson and Mike Sims-Walker were still on the board 1 pick and 5 picks later, respectively. Not that they necessarily turned out well, but on paper you could have justified the pick a bit more due their histories and similarly good measurables.
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