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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2046
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
The Gilbert hate is extreme. At worst he is a marginal RT. The team has trotted out worse.


I dont see how its extreme.

I havent seen many people saying we need to cut him.

Most people just dont have much faith in him, and why should they? What has he shown? Its the same as the Worlids situation. I didnt like either coming out, and while Ive given both a chance, nothing Ive seen from them has washed those doubts away. If anything, they have only reinfoced those doubts.

I havent written off Gilbert, but he still has yet to prove anything really, and Im not one to have blind faith.

Seeing is believing.


The part about gilbert last year that was of concern was that he was better as a rookie (out of shape ) with a bad shoulder. I actually thought he played really well at RT as a rookie, thought he had a chance to be a good player of sorts. Just don't know what to make of it now after last season, and yet the coaches are considering him for LT?

Adams will play well at LT if he isn't injured and has a full camp etc. Of course if ben has his way starks will be back.

Starks, Foster/beachum, mo, DD , Adams

I think this could be better for pass than run, but how about just running to the right Razz

What is the word on this OL coach, is he going to be an improvement over previous coaches?
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 3049
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

And actually, most were writing him off after 2006, because 2007 was the first year people on here were screaming for OLine.


I really don't remember "most" fans writing him off at all, which was kind of sad. I actually remember most being annoyed that Colon was taking his job. Recollection is a funny thing.

Quote:

I somewhat disagree they didnt want him to start right away. He WAS a project, but think about it....they didnt have Starks signed and really didnt have much on the roster. 2011 was an abysmal year for our front office when it comes to OLine decisions. They drafted an unathletic project OT in the 2nd round, signed a mediocre chump coming off a bad injury to a long term deal, and seemed comfy with Jon Scott starting.


Memory may be hazy here, but I'm pretty sure the plan was Colon/Scott man the tackle spots. You can argue the wisdom of that all you want, but I'm pretty sure they said as much in the media. They were comfortable with Colon coming back from his injury and paying him to start. I think long-term they expected Colon/Gilbert to man the tackle spots.

Quote:

Most people just dont have much faith in him, and why should they? What has he shown? Its the same as the Worlids situation. I didnt like either coming out, and while Ive given both a chance, nothing Ive seen from them has washed those doubts away. If anything, they have only reinfoced those doubts.


I think the evaluation of Gilbert's play is overly negative for sure. I didn't see him getting abused on the right side last year before the injury. As a rookie, he was solid.

The overall point - you invested two high picks in these guys, and at a certain point you have to give them a chance. And Gilbert would be a poor fit for what the team wants at guard.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 47314
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
I really don't remember "most" fans writing him off at all, which was kind of sad. I actually remember most being annoyed that Colon was taking his job. Recollection is a funny thing.


Just because people didnt want Colon more than Starks doesnt mean they really WANTED Starks.

I wanted to replace Starks, but not with Colon.

Admittedly, we didnt know alot about Colon, but the part that annoyed me is that he was basically GIVEN the job. He sure didnt EARN it in the preseason that year.

Quote:
Memory may be hazy here, but I'm pretty sure the plan was Colon/Scott man the tackle spots. You can argue the wisdom of that all you want, but I'm pretty sure they said as much in the media.


For one, Im not saying that they didnt WANT him to sit out a year, but when they drafted him, they had to know there would be a chance a rookie would have to start.

Please explain to me how they couldve possibly said that when we didnt even resign Colon until July? Maybe they said that in July or August, but I am speaking when they actually drafted Gilbert IN APRIL...they had to know he may have been forced into a starting job early. Then again, given this teams shortsightedness with OL that year, maybe not.

And Jon Scott was a backup caliber player coming out of Buffalo.

There is no way of knowing what they were thinking when they drafted Gilbert, but my point is they had to know that there was a good chance any rookie we drafted was likely going to get early playing time, so it was a bad year to draft a project player.



Quote:
They were comfortable with Colon coming back from his injury and paying him to start. I think long-term they expected Colon/Gilbert to man the tackle spots.


And again....that reflects on the shortsightedness I spoke of.


Quote:
I think the evaluation of Gilbert's play is overly negative for sure. I didn't see him getting abused on the right side last year before the injury. As a rookie, he was solid.


Have you ever considered maybe YOUR eval of Gilbert is overly POSITIVE?

I am not even saying that you are wrong, but you have to look at both ends of that spectrum.

He was okay FOR A ROOKIE but still had major problems.

And he regressed last year.

And its not so much even his play alone that bothered me as much as it is the shortcomings he showed worrying me going forth. Horrible footwork, laughably coordination and technique.

You may not remember him getting abused...but I do. And Im sire DeCastro remembers too since one of those incidents of Gilbert getting abused nearly ended his career.

Quote:
The overall point - you invested two high picks in these guys, and at a certain point you have to give them a chance.


I never once claimed otherwise...but dont act like Gilbert hasnt been given any chances yet. Im willing to give him another year, but he hasnt shown enough to warrant alot of faith.

Quote:
And Gilbert would be a poor fit for what the team wants at guard.


You can keep claiming this, and perhaps its the truth, but its not what they are looking for at OT either.

In the end, they are looking for players at EVERY position that can perform their job at a high level. let me know when Gilbert begins to show he can do that. Then we can talk about him being "what the Steelers are looking for" at ANY position.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 3049
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Admittedly, we didnt know alot about Colon, but the part that annoyed me is that he was basically GIVEN the job. He sure didnt EARN it in the preseason that year.


He outplayed Starks at the end of 2006. I was of the opinion at the time that the team pretty much benched him to get a look at Colon.

Quote:

For one, Im not saying that they didnt WANT him to sit out a year, but when they drafted him, they had to know there would be a chance a rookie would have to start.


Yea, Kugler talked about him being able to play all four spots on the OL. It was still only injury that caused them to put Gilbert into the line-up.

Quote:

And Jon Scott was a backup caliber player coming out of Buffalo.


Who Kugler started 9 games in 2010, and throughout the playoffs and SB. He was a Kugler guy (I think that was a good argument for firing him outright a few years ago).

The Gilbert pick surprised me personally, and I was lukewarm on him. I don't know what you are so angry about in terms of his rookie season, but:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

No, PFF isn't a great source, but OL stats are hard to come by. He played pretty good for a rookie tackle.

Kugler describes his rookie season as "excellent."
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01/sean-kugler-talks-open-oc-job-marcus-gilbert-maurkice-pouncey-draft-process-more/

Quote:
And Im sire DeCastro remembers too since one of those incidents of Gilbert getting abused nearly ended his career.


I think a large amount of the criticism stems from these few plays where people blame him for injuries. It doesn't seem like its usually about sacks or pressure allowed.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 47314
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:

Admittedly, we didnt know alot about Colon, but the part that annoyed me is that he was basically GIVEN the job. He sure didnt EARN it in the preseason that year.


He outplayed Starks at the end of 2006. I was of the opinion at the time that the team pretty much benched him to get a look at Colon.

Quote:

For one, Im not saying that they didnt WANT him to sit out a year, but when they drafted him, they had to know there would be a chance a rookie would have to start.


Yea, Kugler talked about him being able to play all four spots on the OL. It was still only injury that caused them to put Gilbert into the line-up.

Quote:

And Jon Scott was a backup caliber player coming out of Buffalo.


Who Kugler started 9 games in 2010, and throughout the playoffs and SB. He was a Kugler guy (I think that was a good argument for firing him outright a few years ago).

The Gilbert pick surprised me personally, and I was lukewarm on him. I don't know what you are so angry about in terms of his rookie season, but:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

No, PFF isn't a great source, but OL stats are hard to come by. He played pretty good for a rookie tackle.

Kugler describes his rookie season as "excellent."
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01/sean-kugler-talks-open-oc-job-marcus-gilbert-maurkice-pouncey-draft-process-more/

Quote:
And Im sire DeCastro remembers too since one of those incidents of Gilbert getting abused nearly ended his career.


I think a large amount of the criticism stems from these few plays where people blame him for injuries. It doesn't seem like its usually about sacks or pressure allowed.


Im not going to break this one down, but I respond to some things...

Arrow Colon started 2 games in 2006 and looked like trash in the preseason. He wasnt any better at RT full time than Starks was.

Arrow Again, you can keep claiming it was just an injury, but in the end, Colon wasnt even on the roster when they drafted Gilbert and Scott wasnt a sure thing.

Arrow You keep talking about Gilbert only getting the job due to injury, yet that is why Scott got his too....and he was terrible the season before. Once again, just because we made the SB with him doesnt mean he was good or even average.

Arrow I dont particularly have much interest in Kugler's assement of OLine play. Also, coaches are known for talking their players up, even when they arent playing well.

Arrow No...its not just based on plays where players got injured. And its very much about pressure allowed and how weak he is in the running game. Not shocking that our running game was MUCH better with Adams at RT than it ever was with Gilbert there.
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simonwayne wrote:
We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 3049
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott was terrible and certainly should not have been in the discussion to start. Yet, he was the starting LT opening day and Willie Colon was the starting RT. Gilbert was on the bench. Colon got hurt, and Gilbert slid in. It wasn't until after a few weeks of Scott sucking it up before the team caved and brought back Starks.

Kugler said what he said about Gilbert at the end of this season when asked if he was the future LT. Said that Gilbert had an excellent rookie campaign and they will have wait and see how the off-season goes.

The team likely brings Starks back for another go around when they have the cash, but there should be open competition between the two young guys for both of those spots. If it's close, the young guys should get the jobs and be allowed to grow into them. Long-term answers at tackle are needed.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2046
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:

Admittedly, we didnt know alot about Colon, but the part that annoyed me is that he was basically GIVEN the job. He sure didnt EARN it in the preseason that year.


He outplayed Starks at the end of 2006. I was of the opinion at the time that the team pretty much benched him to get a look at Colon.

Quote:

For one, Im not saying that they didnt WANT him to sit out a year, but when they drafted him, they had to know there would be a chance a rookie would have to start.


Yea, Kugler talked about him being able to play all four spots on the OL. It was still only injury that caused them to put Gilbert into the line-up.

Quote:

And Jon Scott was a backup caliber player coming out of Buffalo.


Who Kugler started 9 games in 2010, and throughout the playoffs and SB. He was a Kugler guy (I think that was a good argument for firing him outright a few years ago).

The Gilbert pick surprised me personally, and I was lukewarm on him. I don't know what you are so angry about in terms of his rookie season, but:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

No, PFF isn't a great source, but OL stats are hard to come by. He played pretty good for a rookie tackle.

Kugler describes his rookie season as "excellent."
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/01/sean-kugler-talks-open-oc-job-marcus-gilbert-maurkice-pouncey-draft-process-more/

Quote:
And Im sire DeCastro remembers too since one of those incidents of Gilbert getting abused nearly ended his career.


I think a large amount of the criticism stems from these few plays where people blame him for injuries. It doesn't seem like its usually about sacks or pressure allowed.


Moderator.... Hello Moderator? Whatever happened to banning posts that featured Kugler and scoot in the same post? Lets move on from that , can't believe the qb is still alive after that season.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2046
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Scott was terrible and certainly should not have been in the discussion to start. Yet, he was the starting LT opening day and Willie Colon was the starting RT. Gilbert was on the bench. Colon got hurt, and Gilbert slid in. It wasn't until after a few weeks of Scott sucking it up before the team caved and brought back Starks.

Kugler said what he said about Gilbert at the end of this season when asked if he was the future LT. Said that Gilbert had an excellent rookie campaign and they will have wait and see how the off-season goes.

The team likely brings Starks back for another go around when they have the cash, but there should be open competition between the two young guys for both of those spots. If it's close, the young guys should get the jobs and be allowed to grow into them. Long-term answers at tackle are needed.


Gilbert had a possibly good campaign as a rookie, not excellent, of course by the standard from the previous year - sure it was incredible! Laughing We don't know what to expect with gilbert and with most teams it wouldn't matter. The problem here is that the frat like coaching might favor gilbert when they should bench him. I think that is what we are all fearing and expecting Idea


It would be a bonus if gilbert was better than his rookie year, when he was out of shape and with one shoulder. Lets just hope Mad
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With a new OL coach, I don't know if he would get favoritism. Tomlin also benched him as a rookie. I think it's just old veteran types who get favoritism, unless your Max Starks and then he's ugly and the team hates him. Or something to that effect.
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thewadewilson


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Location: me on the sig Espn Insider forget Kiper
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About as much as they would consider jumping of the Clemente bridge.
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