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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 3046
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Wait....so a lumbering guy with poor balance and footwork doesnt fit at guard, but that makes him a fit at tackle?


Most tackles don't move well in space. They have long arms, length and the power to slow guys down. Some have good footwork. Gilbert would struggle with pulling and getting to the second level. His height, body and experience mean guys will probably get underneath him. Some of those tackles can make the transition, but they become one dimensional players.

You don't see guys like Gilbert playing G on a team that as of this year is looking to implement more zone concepts, and as of last year was talking about having the ability to pull to either side of the line (with Decastro at RG).

Quote:
He gets beat constantly off the edge against the more athletic pass rushers because of how poorly he moves.


Constantly is a bit harsh. Neither Adams nor Gilbert showed much last year. I think they are both better at RT RIGHT NOW. Both could develop a bit. Adams may even be more comfortable at LT than right.

Quote:

I personally dont think he would be much better at OG...same feeling I had about Colon....but Id definitely rather see him at OG than at OT.


I think Colon and Gilbert are two very different players. Colon was shorter, stockier. His issue at guard was he was also too god damn round. I said this in another topic...had he slimmed down, he may not have needed to hold as often as he did. He also would have been better at RG than left where he faced more athletic DT's who could get underneath him.

We have discussed Gilbert already. In his first year, he showed more in pass pro than Adams. I don't think he was all that bad in his 2nd year. People seem more frustrated with him falling on other guys and him getting hurt. I haven't given up on either. Adams wasn't significantly better in pass pro than Beachum at RT. Could argue why all day, but he really wasn't.

In the longrun, I had viewed Adams as the better LT prospect and Gilbert as the RT. I think the success in the run game last year with Adams at RT may color that decision a bit this year. Plus the team already played Gilbert at LT a bit, so they may have a comfort level they don't with Adams yet. I'd like to see a competition between the two, without penciled guys. We'll see what happens.
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No way do I want Gilbert moved inside. As an OT, he can only tear one player's ACL when he falls. You move him inside and we lose our OT and Pouncey.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chieferific wrote:
No way do I want Gilbert moved inside. As an OT, he can only tear one player's ACL when he falls. You move him inside and we lose our OT and Pouncey.


Nice. Made me laugh.

What's his toll now 3 injuries due to being straight up pancaked into our guys. DeCastro, Pouncey, Johnson...am I missing anyone?
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said in another thread...long term, I see Gilbert as a backup. Ill give him another year before I really give up on him, but I absolutely loathed the pick when we made it, and he hasnt done anything to prove my doubts wrong. Sad part about it is that I dont think his biggest issues are correctable, at least not completely.
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We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gilbert was no worse at RT than Starks was for several years...including when the team won the Super Bowl. So many things can impact OL play. Tackle play has slipped here the last few years under Kugler. I will say OT play was better under Zierlein. Conditioning is a big factor. What the QB does will always be an issue. Knowing assignments.

I would actually argue Gilbert is a better run blocker than Starks ever was at RT, and not much worse as a pass defender. Starks didn't become worth much until he became a LT. There's a reason he lost his job beyond, "OMG FO HATES MAX!!!!"

OL players are a product of who is around them and who is behind center more than perhaps any other position.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Gilbert was no worse at RT than Starks was for several years...including when the team won the Super Bowl. So many things can impact OL play. Tackle play has slipped here the last few years under Kugler. I will say OT play was better under Zierlein. Conditioning is a big factor. What the QB does will always be an issue. Knowing assignments.

I would actually argue Gilbert is a better run blocker than Starks ever was at RT, and not much worse as a pass defender. Starks didn't become worth much until he became a LT. There's a reason he lost his job beyond, "OMG FO HATES MAX!!!!"

OL players are a product of who is around them and who is behind center more than perhaps any other position.


Yeah...and Darnell Stapleton was a guard the year we won SB 43. Winning a SB doesnt mean all the starters were good. Every single team has weak links on their roster. Not to mention, Starks played RT under Cowher in a run heavy offense. Cant really compare that to the offense we ran with Tomlin/Arians calling the shots.

Starks was a more natural fit at LT. Thats why he has played better there.

The reason Starks lost his job was because he showed up to camp in 2007 out of shape and overweight and immediately got in the new staff's doghouse.

And while there are alot of things that can impact OLine, thats not always the case. Some players just plain suck. All of Gilbert's issues are his own, and if anything, HE makes the other parts of the line weaker...not the other way around.
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We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
3rivers wrote:
If gilbert doesn't rebound, he better be gone next year or a back up at best.


i am interested to see if he reports to camp in shape or as a chubby. Pouncey took him to task his rookie season, and the steelers have shown they don't mind showing Pouncey's buddies the door, so to speak.

Gilbert needs to go back to his rookie season and figure out what motivated him because he was pretty good as a rookie but really overmatched as a 2nd year guy


Getting back to his rookie season? As in when he was out of shape etc? Yeah I agree as he played better then and with an injured shoulder while last year he shouldn't have even made the team. How often does such decline happen?

People laughed at me when I mentioned McKinnie last year, but he ended up playing well. A quality older OL is not a problem especially if the other OL are like the gilberts and colons etc. It would be nice if in house existing players could be decent. Oh, of course, youth is important as well, I forgot about that Rolling Eyes

Keth, if gilbert is like last year, do you think they might trade him next year?
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starks was a more natural fit at LT. Thats why he has played better there.

The reason Starks lost his job was because he showed up to camp in 2007 out of shape and overweight and immediately got in the new staff's doghouse.

So was most of the OL in that era, lets be glad that is over with, or is it?

And while there are alot of things that can impact OLine, thats not always the case. Some players just plain suck. All of Gilbert's issues are his own, and if anything, HE makes the other parts of the line weaker...not the other way around.[/quote]

I couldn't believe how much he declined last year. To think the FO are even considering him to possibly be the LT is another example of these coaches /FO having lost their minds. I know, there is always IR for the QB, but lets bench /trade the players that can't even care. DD injury was related to gilber as was another (adams?). Rolling Eyes
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
3rivers wrote:
If gilbert doesn't rebound, he better be gone next year or a back up at best.


i am interested to see if he reports to camp in shape or as a chubby. Pouncey took him to task his rookie season, and the steelers have shown they don't mind showing Pouncey's buddies the door, so to speak.

Gilbert needs to go back to his rookie season and figure out what motivated him because he was pretty good as a rookie but really overmatched as a 2nd year guy


Getting back to his rookie season? As in when he was out of shape etc? Yeah I agree as he played better then and with an injured shoulder while last year he shouldn't have even made the team. How often does such decline happen?

People laughed at me when I mentioned McKinnie last year, but he ended up playing well. A quality older OL is not a problem especially if the other OL are like the gilberts and colons etc. It would be nice if in house existing players could be decent. Oh, of course, youth is important as well, I forgot about that Rolling Eyes

Keth, if gilbert is like last year, do you think they might trade him next year?

For one, McKinnie wasnt that good last year. Most Ravens fans will attest to that. There is reason they havent even attempted to resign him, and no, its not just due to money. If he had played better, he wouldnt still be a FA. Some team wouldve already nabbed him.

Secondly, why would they sign McKinnie when whey they had two OTs they drafted in the 2nd round in consecutive years? Not to mention, McKinnie is basically a lazier version of Max Starks, and Starks was better, so your entire point is moot.

You can roll your eyes all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that signing an aging FA doesnt always make sense. When it does, Im sure most people dont have an issue with it, but if they dont have much left to offer, its better to try to groom a young guy who could potnetially get better, than to cling to some fossil who is circling the drain.

Only way Id sign McKinnie or Waters is during the season if we had an injury to a veteran.

On top all that, they have already made it clear they want to get more athletic on the OLine....Waters and McKinnie are kind of going the other way.
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We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

The reason Starks lost his job was because he showed up to camp in 2007 out of shape and overweight and immediately got in the new staff's doghouse.


The previous staff was high on Colon in 2006.

Quote:
Every single team has weak links on their roster. Not to mention, Starks played RT under Cowher in a run heavy offense.


Starks has never been a good run blocker, even at RT. Were many fans writing him off in 2006/07? No, but I was. This was my whole point. Starks, though, was given time and actually ended up with more responsibility...and actually blossomed.

Quote:
All of Gilbert's issues are his own, and if anything, HE makes the other parts of the line weaker...not the other way around.


Giblert wasn't drafted to be an instant starter. His technique needs work, and he needs to keep himself in shape. I've already given my opinion that tackle play was better under Zierlein than Kugler.

Gilbert is a mediocre pass protector as of now. So was Starks. he isn't left handed like Starks and it doesn't provide an easy explanation, but Gilbert played about one season so far. He's played two spots on the line.

The team invested a 2nd round pick, which has a high rate of success when talking about OL. I trust the scouts. And his play as a rookie was decent for a guy who was NOT DRAFTED TO START RIGHT AWAY. He was supposed to be a bit of a project. Right coaching (a huge difference maker with all draft picks), the right amount of time, and the right motivation on his part and I have faith in Gilbert.

I still think Adams may be a natural LT.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Conditioning is a big factor.


I agree with a lot of your previous post.

I think this part of that post is 100% spot on, and it applies to more positions than just the OL.

Since they had that brutal opening camp under Tomlin, I believe that this teams physical preparation has really slipped.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
So was most of the OL in that era, lets be glad that is over with, or is it?


Thats the point.

Cowher ball was more about big powerful men...not necessarily athletic guys.

For as much as Alan Faneca was praised (and rightfully so), he was never strong in pass pro.

And Im not sure how you can question if it is over....consdiering the players we have drafted over the last few years. Gilbert is more of a Cowher ball guy, but Adams, DD and Mo are all athletic types.
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We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Faneca wasn't even a great run blocker near the end. He was a great pulling guard. He reminds me of Pouncey. Athletic, but not necessarily great the point of attack. Maybe better suited to a scheme focused on movement.

Starks was NEVER a great run blocker. He wasn't a good pass blocker at RT. He became a LT and with a bit of time, became a pretty good player. I jumped on the bandwagon of Starks when he looked like a different player on the left side...completely the opposite of what you would expect for a lackluster RT.

Gilbert and Adams are both young. The team expected both to grow into their positions. They may be forced into the lineup into greater roles than anticipated, but the investment spent on them and the circumstances warrant it. I wouldn't write off either.

The Gilbert hate is extreme. At worst he is a marginal RT. The team has trotted out worse.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
The previous staff was high on Colon in 2006.


They were also high on Chukki Okobi at one point.

The point is, Starks showed up out of shape in 2007, and basically wrote himself off. Tomlin has proven over the years that his doghouse is hard to get out of. Ask Keenan Lewis and Ramon Foster.

Quote:
Starks has never been a good run blocker, even at RT. Were many fans writing him off in 2006/07? No, but I was. This was my whole point. Starks, though, was given time and actually ended up with more responsibility...and actually blossomed.


I never liked Starks at RT either.

And actually, most were writing him off after 2006, because 2007 was the first year people on here were screaming for OLine.

And again, LT is a more natural fit for him. Thats why he had more success there. He is left handed and moves better on that side.


Quote:
All of Gilbert's issues are his own, and if anything, HE makes the other parts of the line weaker...not the other way around.


Quote:
Giblert wasn't drafted to be an instant starter. His technique needs work, and he needs to keep himself in shape. I've already given my opinion that tackle play was better under Zierlein than Kugler.


I get that and agree with that.

Bottom line is, I didnt like him coming out and still dont like him much. If he proves me wrong...great. I dont see it, though.



Quote:
Gilbert is a mediocre pass protector as of now. So was Starks. he isn't left handed like Starks and it doesn't provide an easy explanation, but Gilbert played about one season so far. He's played two spots on the line.


Agian, I agree with this...but the fact is he still hasnt shown much.

Im not going to give him the benefit of the doubt until he starts to prove me wrong. Im still hoping he turns it around, but again...nothing Ive seen says he can.


Quote:
The team invested a 2nd round pick, which has a high rate of success when talking about OL. I trust the scouts. And his play as a rookie was decent for a guy who was NOT DRAFTED TO START RIGHT AWAY. He was supposed to be a bit of a project. Right coaching (a huge difference maker with all draft picks), the right amount of time, and the right motivation on his part and I have faith in Gilbert.

I still think Adams may be a natural LT.


I somewhat disagree they didnt want him to start right away. He WAS a project, but think about it....they didnt have Starks signed and really didnt have much on the roster. 2011 was an abysmal year for our front office when it comes to OLine decisions. They drafted an unathletic project OT in the 2nd round, signed a mediocre chump coming off a bad injury to a long term deal, and seemed comfy with Jon Scott starting.

As far as Adams...you might be right, but until he improves in pass pro, I dont want him anywhere near the left side.
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We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
The Gilbert hate is extreme. At worst he is a marginal RT. The team has trotted out worse.


I dont see how its extreme.

I havent seen many people saying we need to cut him.

Most people just dont have much faith in him, and why should they? What has he shown? Its the same as the Worlids situation. I didnt like either coming out, and while Ive given both a chance, nothing Ive seen from them has washed those doubts away. If anything, they have only reinfoced those doubts.

I havent written off Gilbert, but he still has yet to prove anything really, and Im not one to have blind faith.

Seeing is believing.
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We ain't got nothing man, just a chiefs win, thats all you get...And next week it will be wash, rinse, repeat.
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