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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 6730
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 5 things I think I know.... Reply with quote

duke2056 wrote:
bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Dawgs by Nature has a pretty decent article/blog/post discussing thoughts on the draft. Pretty reasonable view on the browns approach. Unfortunately, the poll at the end shows a few negative "fans" have been voting. Confused Thought a few of us voicing our opinions might lift the overall IQ of those voting.


http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/4/28/4278392/5-things-i-think-i-know-about-the-browns-draft

Quote:
So how did they do? I have to say I was somewhat disappointed, I was hoping for some starters to come out of day 3 and I see virtually zero percent chance of that. I give them an I for Incomplete, and hope we are calling them geniuses this time next year.


And this is about how I feel. I little disappointed, but hopeful that they made good choices long term.


I think we DID get a starter day three. Those two trades we made will produce a starter in 2014. And a starter who can actually be GOOD, not some hole filler from this draft.

Starter doesnt always = good.


That's nice.

And we had a 2nd round pick (Gordon), too.

And if you add that all up we got bupkis in terms of making the team better this year.

Future draft picks = nothing this year; Gordon = incremental, hopefully.


That's a great thought process if you prefer to NEVER be good only to "attempt" to be slightly better right now than the previous year.

And I don't care what we call the guys right now, I care what we are calling them in a few years.

I hate waiting too, but not enough to make me want some marginal half-assed talent in the 4th and 5th this year when we can get higher picks next year in a draft most seem to think has better talent anyway.
So...............higher picks in a draft that is better...............yes.

Unless you really feel the 4th and 5th rounders we could have drafted would have taken us somewhere significant.

I guess I just don't see why you would be opposed to doing this every year in order to have better players to choose from EVERY year....starting in 2014.

I want to do it on an ever larger scare and get extra 2nds and maybe even 1sts.


Not against or disagreeing with the strategy...just questioning the "we DID get a starter" comment.

We didn't for this year for sure, and who knows re next year.
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Dropkick_pride


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 10805
Location: C-bus
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 5 things I think I know.... Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Dawgs by Nature has a pretty decent article/blog/post discussing thoughts on the draft. Pretty reasonable view on the browns approach. Unfortunately, the poll at the end shows a few negative "fans" have been voting. Confused Thought a few of us voicing our opinions might lift the overall IQ of those voting.


http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/4/28/4278392/5-things-i-think-i-know-about-the-browns-draft

Quote:
So how did they do? I have to say I was somewhat disappointed, I was hoping for some starters to come out of day 3 and I see virtually zero percent chance of that. I give them an I for Incomplete, and hope we are calling them geniuses this time next year.


And this is about how I feel. I little disappointed, but hopeful that they made good choices long term.


I think we DID get a starter day three. Those two trades we made will produce a starter in 2014. And a starter who can actually be GOOD, not some hole filler from this draft.

Starter doesnt always = good.


That's nice.

And we had a 2nd round pick (Gordon), too.

And if you add that all up we got bupkis in terms of making the team better this year.

Future draft picks = nothing this year; Gordon = incremental, hopefully.


That's a great thought process if you prefer to NEVER be good only to "attempt" to be slightly better right now than the previous year.

And I don't care what we call the guys right now, I care what we are calling them in a few years.

I hate waiting too, but not enough to make me want some marginal half-assed talent in the 4th and 5th this year when we can get higher picks next year in a draft most seem to think has better talent anyway.
So...............higher picks in a draft that is better...............yes.

Unless you really feel the 4th and 5th rounders we could have drafted would have taken us somewhere significant.

I guess I just don't see why you would be opposed to doing this every year in order to have better players to choose from EVERY year....starting in 2014.

I want to do it on an ever larger scare and get extra 2nds and maybe even 1sts.


Not against or disagreeing with the strategy...just questioning the "we DID get a starter" comment.

We didn't for this year for sure, and who knows re next year.


The starter comment is based off the entire draft, not just the couple picks that were traded, so YES we did get at least starter - Gordon.

All other potential starters we wont know till August....
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duke2056


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 8254
Location: Cleveland area
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 5 things I think I know.... Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Dawgs by Nature has a pretty decent article/blog/post discussing thoughts on the draft. Pretty reasonable view on the browns approach. Unfortunately, the poll at the end shows a few negative "fans" have been voting. Confused Thought a few of us voicing our opinions might lift the overall IQ of those voting.


http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/4/28/4278392/5-things-i-think-i-know-about-the-browns-draft

Quote:
So how did they do? I have to say I was somewhat disappointed, I was hoping for some starters to come out of day 3 and I see virtually zero percent chance of that. I give them an I for Incomplete, and hope we are calling them geniuses this time next year.


And this is about how I feel. I little disappointed, but hopeful that they made good choices long term.


I think we DID get a starter day three. Those two trades we made will produce a starter in 2014. And a starter who can actually be GOOD, not some hole filler from this draft.

Starter doesnt always = good.


That's nice.

And we had a 2nd round pick (Gordon), too.

And if you add that all up we got bupkis in terms of making the team better this year.

Future draft picks = nothing this year; Gordon = incremental, hopefully.


That's a great thought process if you prefer to NEVER be good only to "attempt" to be slightly better right now than the previous year.

And I don't care what we call the guys right now, I care what we are calling them in a few years.

I hate waiting too, but not enough to make me want some marginal half-assed talent in the 4th and 5th this year when we can get higher picks next year in a draft most seem to think has better talent anyway.
So...............higher picks in a draft that is better...............yes.

Unless you really feel the 4th and 5th rounders we could have drafted would have taken us somewhere significant.

I guess I just don't see why you would be opposed to doing this every year in order to have better players to choose from EVERY year....starting in 2014.

I want to do it on an ever larger scare and get extra 2nds and maybe even 1sts.


Not against or disagreeing with the strategy...just questioning the "we DID get a starter" comment.

We didn't for this year for sure, and who knows re next year.


Did we get a starter in the 3rd THIS year? Seems we did.

Will we get one with that pick next year?? Well, I know a 3rd and 4th can likely be traded up for a 2nd if we choose to, and we can grab a starter there, and not only a starter, a 2nd round talent starter as opposed to a 4th/5th round "who the hell knows if he can make the roster" kind of talent.
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2014 draft prediction:

Zero chance the Browns draft a QB at pick 4, or trade up for a QB.

And Matt Ryan is so great he has one playoff win.
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Dropkick_pride


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 10805
Location: C-bus
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as for the poll in the article.... those giving our draft an "F" has fallen from 60+% morning to 22% now...
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LETSGOBROWNIES


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 7900
Location: CINCINNATI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: 5 things I think I know.... Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Dawgs by Nature has a pretty decent article/blog/post discussing thoughts on the draft. Pretty reasonable view on the browns approach. Unfortunately, the poll at the end shows a few negative "fans" have been voting. Confused Thought a few of us voicing our opinions might lift the overall IQ of those voting.


http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/4/28/4278392/5-things-i-think-i-know-about-the-browns-draft

Quote:
So how did they do? I have to say I was somewhat disappointed, I was hoping for some starters to come out of day 3 and I see virtually zero percent chance of that. I give them an I for Incomplete, and hope we are calling them geniuses this time next year.


And this is about how I feel. I little disappointed, but hopeful that they made good choices long term.


I think we DID get a starter day three. Those two trades we made will produce a starter in 2014. And a starter who can actually be GOOD, not some hole filler from this draft.

Starter doesnt always = good.


That's nice.

And we had a 2nd round pick (Gordon), too.

And if you add that all up we got bupkis in terms of making the team better this year.

Future draft picks = nothing this year; Gordon = incremental, hopefully.


That's a great thought process if you prefer to NEVER be good only to "attempt" to be slightly better right now than the previous year.

And I don't care what we call the guys right now, I care what we are calling them in a few years.

I hate waiting too, but not enough to make me want some marginal half-assed talent in the 4th and 5th this year when we can get higher picks next year in a draft most seem to think has better talent anyway.
So...............higher picks in a draft that is better...............yes.

Unless you really feel the 4th and 5th rounders we could have drafted would have taken us somewhere significant.

I guess I just don't see why you would be opposed to doing this every year in order to have better players to choose from EVERY year....starting in 2014.

I want to do it on an ever larger scare and get extra 2nds and maybe even 1sts.


Not against or disagreeing with the strategy...just questioning the "we DID get a starter" comment.

We didn't for this year for sure, and who knows re next year.


What the hell type of logic is this?

When does any team know the day after the draft is over whether or not they drafted a starter in the 4th/5th?

Anyone with the ability to do basic math sees the value in what the Browns did. Not sayin' you don't, but it's pretty clear and easy.l
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duke2056


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing I like. I like that we traded with the Steelers.

I would rather they use a 4th this year than a 3rd next year.

I always like when we trade a lesser pick for a better pick straight up, which we did, especially at the expense of a division rival. That trade works two-fold for me.
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2014 draft prediction:

Zero chance the Browns draft a QB at pick 4, or trade up for a QB.

And Matt Ryan is so great he has one playoff win.
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Dropkick_pride


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duke2056 wrote:
Another thing I like. I like that we traded with the Steelers.

I would rather they use a 4th this year than a 3rd next year.

I always like when we trade a lesser pick for a better pick straight up, which we did, especially at the expense of a division rival. That trade works two-fold for me.


I didnt think of it that way. Interesting.
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Estonianzulu


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just like the T-Rich trade. We got blasted for trading some marginal potential players who would struggle to make the team in order to get our guy.

Now we do what everyone else thought was a good idea before the draft (Get more picks in a better draft) and are getting blasted for it.

A city other than Cleveland does this and gets praised.
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ReggieCamp


Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 9349
Location: Canonsburg, PA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Another thing I like. I like that we traded with the Steelers.

I would rather they use a 4th this year than a 3rd next year.

I always like when we trade a lesser pick for a better pick straight up, which we did, especially at the expense of a division rival. That trade works two-fold for me.


I didnt think of it that way. Interesting.

Joe Banner said pretty much the same thing in one of his press conferences over the weekend:

Joe Banner said / wrote:
ďIím going to sound, I donít know where this is going to lead, but I prefer to trade within the division. You donít make a trade that you donít think youíre winning. So if youíre winning a trade in your own division youíre even better than winning a trade in another division."

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Banner-Chudzinski-press-conf-transcript---427/f8cef822-3f71-4fab-b4d9-2cc2e7b2637f

Heh, I like his boldness.
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LETSGOBROWNIES


Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 7900
Location: CINCINNATI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Another thing I like. I like that we traded with the Steelers.

I would rather they use a 4th this year than a 3rd next year.

I always like when we trade a lesser pick for a better pick straight up, which we did, especially at the expense of a division rival. That trade works two-fold for me.


I didnt think of it that way. Interesting.

Joe Banner said pretty much the same thing in one of his press conferences over the weekend:

Joe Banner said / wrote:
ďIím going to sound, I donít know where this is going to lead, but I prefer to trade within the division. You donít make a trade that you donít think youíre winning. So if youíre winning a trade in your own division youíre even better than winning a trade in another division."

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Banner-Chudzinski-press-conf-transcript---427/f8cef822-3f71-4fab-b4d9-2cc2e7b2637f

Heh, I like his boldness.


Absolutely.

Until we quit skirting around the teams in our division and smack them right in the mouth, both on the field and in the FO, we'll continue to be the whipping boys of the division.
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duke2056


Joined: 21 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Another thing I like. I like that we traded with the Steelers.

I would rather they use a 4th this year than a 3rd next year.

I always like when we trade a lesser pick for a better pick straight up, which we did, especially at the expense of a division rival. That trade works two-fold for me.


I didnt think of it that way. Interesting.

Joe Banner said pretty much the same thing in one of his press conferences over the weekend:

Joe Banner said / wrote:
ďIím going to sound, I donít know where this is going to lead, but I prefer to trade within the division. You donít make a trade that you donít think youíre winning. So if youíre winning a trade in your own division youíre even better than winning a trade in another division."

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Banner-Chudzinski-press-conf-transcript---427/f8cef822-3f71-4fab-b4d9-2cc2e7b2637f

Heh, I like his boldness.


Right. We won't know for a while if we "won" the deal or not. I mean, we know for a fact we won the "value" of the deal, but if the guy we get next year with that 3rd is good, and the guy they drafted isn't................it's pretty sweet that it helps us AND hurts them.
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2014 draft prediction:

Zero chance the Browns draft a QB at pick 4, or trade up for a QB.

And Matt Ryan is so great he has one playoff win.
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JCBrowns21


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no problem with the trades, but how many people were happy to hear Leon McFadden's name called with other Corners that were generally rated higher?

Same criticism as I had with Heckert, don't feel like we got great value with our picks and we seem to be trying to outsmart everyone when "good teams" seem to pick players that are generally rated high. Look at Baltimore, New England, Pittsburgh, and SF's drafts and tell me you legitimately are happier with our draft than theirs.

With that said, still pleased with all the trades and FA moves, just felt we could have gotten better value with the picks we did make.
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buno67


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCBrowns21 wrote:
I have no problem with the trades, but how many people were happy to hear Leon McFadden's name called with other Corners that were generally rated higher?


didnt we have the same problem with Schwartz?

Ppl were upset we drafted him when better names were on the board, Schwartz comes out and becomes the 2nd best tackle to come from that draft and becomes the best RT from that draft
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
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Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 5 things I think I know.... Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
bruceb wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
Dropkick_pride wrote:
Dawgs by Nature has a pretty decent article/blog/post discussing thoughts on the draft. Pretty reasonable view on the browns approach. Unfortunately, the poll at the end shows a few negative "fans" have been voting. Confused Thought a few of us voicing our opinions might lift the overall IQ of those voting.


http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/4/28/4278392/5-things-i-think-i-know-about-the-browns-draft

Quote:
So how did they do? I have to say I was somewhat disappointed, I was hoping for some starters to come out of day 3 and I see virtually zero percent chance of that. I give them an I for Incomplete, and hope we are calling them geniuses this time next year.


And this is about how I feel. I little disappointed, but hopeful that they made good choices long term.


I think we DID get a starter day three. Those two trades we made will produce a starter in 2014. And a starter who can actually be GOOD, not some hole filler from this draft.

Starter doesnt always = good.


That's nice.

And we had a 2nd round pick (Gordon), too.

And if you add that all up we got bupkis in terms of making the team better this year.

Future draft picks = nothing this year; Gordon = incremental, hopefully.


That's a great thought process if you prefer to NEVER be good only to "attempt" to be slightly better right now than the previous year.

And I don't care what we call the guys right now, I care what we are calling them in a few years.

I hate waiting too, but not enough to make me want some marginal half-assed talent in the 4th and 5th this year when we can get higher picks next year in a draft most seem to think has better talent anyway.
So...............higher picks in a draft that is better...............yes.

Unless you really feel the 4th and 5th rounders we could have drafted would have taken us somewhere significant.

I guess I just don't see why you would be opposed to doing this every year in order to have better players to choose from EVERY year....starting in 2014.

I want to do it on an ever larger scare and get extra 2nds and maybe even 1sts.


Not against or disagreeing with the strategy...just questioning the "we DID get a starter" comment.

We didn't for this year for sure, and who knows re next year.


What the hell type of logic is this?

When does any team know the day after the draft is over whether or not they drafted a starter in the 4th/5th?

Anyone with the ability to do basic math sees the value in what the Browns did. Not sayin' you don't, but it's pretty clear and easy.l


Again.

And still doesn't = a starter this year.

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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCBrowns21 wrote:
I have no problem with the trades, but how many people were happy to hear Leon McFadden's name called with other Corners that were generally rated higher?

Same criticism as I had with Heckert, don't feel like we got great value with our picks and we seem to be trying to outsmart everyone when "good teams" seem to pick players that are generally rated high. Look at Baltimore, New England, Pittsburgh, and SF's drafts and tell me you legitimately are happier with our draft than theirs.

With that said, still pleased with all the trades and FA moves, just felt we could have gotten better value with the picks we did make.


Perhaps...

We started the day with Gordon already picked with our second rounder and #6 overall, a 3rd, a 4th, two 5ths, a 6th, and a 7th...(I think)

We ended the day with:

Mingo
Gordon
Bess
McFadden
Slaughter
Bryant
Gilkey
2014 3rd
2014 4th

So we went from having 3 picks that should have added major contributors to the team and 5 picks that could have added depth, developmental players, or camp bodies...to 4 players that should be major contributors to the team, 2 future picks that may have some potential to add another major contributor to the team...and 3 players that might add depth, be developmental players, or camp bodies

In essence, we figured out a way to turn 2 picks that may have added 'bodies' -into one player that should contribute significantly and the potential for another.

I suppose there was a way to get more value, but I think it involves Ďhittingí on multiple low round draft picks in the same draftÖdoes that happen much?
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