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Round 4, Pick 129 - John Simon
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DreamKid


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 601
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
DreamKid wrote:
JJ was a poor man's Upshaw, and John Simon is a poor man's Kruger.

I disagree with your comparison. Kruger had the ability to drop back and play in space. He made some nice plays in coverage. He also could change directions at an average to above average level... whereas COD is probably Simon's biggest weakness as a player.

Simon is also a dominant run defender, whereas Kruger was absolute garbage against the run and could keep contain to save his life.

I'd say the onlything comparable between the two players are if you're STRICTLY referring to pass rushing style in your comparison where both Kruger and Simon were relentless effort pass rushers that didn't have the freak jump start, but excel as pass rushers because of their ability to disengage from blockers and create a rushing lane using quick, strong hands. I could agree that they're comparable pass rushers, but not comparable players. I think Simon is more like a cross between Kruger and JJ... though more athletic than both.


I don't think you do disagree, I said a poor man's. A poor man's version of a player might be one that is missing one of that said player's traits. Like maybe Paul's change of direction ability, also I think your overestimating Simon's run defense. He takes some bad angles to the carrier from the LOS imo.
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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 22820
Location: Parkville, MD
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
This is the one pick I do not like. At all.

A Jarret Johnson clone? How is that a good thing? Courtney Upshaw is a better version of Jarret Johnson, and we supposedly just drafted another worse version of Johnson? So basically this guy can't run, can't cover, can't rush the passer, but is decent against the run? Why?

We need athletic OLB's - not slow run stuffers. Just my opinion though.


SOLB depth behind Upshaw? If this guy is a Jarrett Johnson clone, that's an AWESOME thing, not a negative. JJ was a very solid player for us for years.


Yes, it was a good thing, but not now. The league is changing and slow, unathletic linebackers are a thing of the past. Sure, this guy might offer some sort of depth behind Upshaw, but Upshaw is now also a depth player behind Dumervil.

I guess I might be being over criticial because I never view 1-4th round picks as "depth" players, which is exactly what this guy seems like. I'm also not a fan of LB's who can't do anything except stop the run.


We have four solid OLB guys on the roster now -- 2 vets and two rookies who were top 4 round draft picks.

Not sure what's to not like.
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BaltimoreTerp


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Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 29633
Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think people are taking the 'JJ clone' thing a little too literally. It doesn't mean Simon is destined to be as limited as a pass rusher as JJ was. The way in which he's compared (favorably) to JJ has mostly to do with their temperment. Simon is relentless, and he's got the work ethic to keep improving. If he develops into someone who gives us between 5 and 8 sacks a season, is that really so useless just because we have Upshaw? We've added youth and energy by adding Simon and I like the emphasis we've put on getting high motor guys. And if Simon offers us something of the Ninkovich/Vrabel type that he's also been compared to with some timely splash plays, all the better. But even if he only ends up providing run-stopping prowess, it's not like that's a bad thing. Sure, you'd love to add a guy you can count on for 10 sacks a season in the 4th round, but pass rushers of that caliber don't grow on trees, and certainly don't last that late into the draft. Better to add guys with the talent and character to keep improving and develop them into the guy you want them to be. With Monachino still around and Suggs and Dumervil to look up to, Simon will get as good instruction as he could possibly need to develop as a pass rusher.

I really like the addition. Drafting best player available means exactly what it means, and thus you can't be afraid to add a guy like Simon because you've already added defense in the draft.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
I think people are taking the 'JJ clone' thing a little too literally. It doesn't mean Simon is destined to be as limited as a pass rusher as JJ was. The way in which he's compared (favorably) to JJ has mostly to do with their temperment. Simon is relentless, and he's got the work ethic to keep improving. If he develops into someone who gives us between 5 and 8 sacks a season, is that really so useless just because we have Upshaw? We've added youth and energy by adding Simon and I like the emphasis we've put on getting high motor guys. And if Simon offers us something of the Ninkovich/Vrabel type that he's also been compared to with some timely splash plays, all the better. But even if he only ends up providing run-stopping prowess, it's not like that's a bad thing. Sure, you'd love to add a guy you can count on for 10 sacks a season in the 4th round, but pass rushers of that caliber don't grow on trees, and certainly don't last that late into the draft. Better to add guys with the talent and character to keep improving and develop them into the guy you want them to be. With Monachino still around and Suggs and Dumervil to look up to, Simon will get as good instruction as he could possibly need to develop as a pass rusher.

I really like the addition. Drafting best player available means exactly what it means, and thus you can't be afraid to add a guy like Simon because you've already added defense in the draft.


See this is something I can absolutely agree with. You can never have too much pass rush, especially in today's NFL, so if this is a guy who is a pass rusher but has JJ's relentlessness and intensity, then hell that's an AWESOME pick! I would love to see us being able to rotate 4 pass rushers and use similar packages to what the NYG use (Nascar).
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 7519
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
I disagree. Brandon Spikes isn't the most fleet of foot player out there, yet he excels as a thumper because of instincts and physicality. John Simon is a guy who has those traits. He's instinctive and physical. And while he doesn't have great COD skills, his test numbers weren't that different from Jameel McClain's numbers... who has been a decent thumper LB for us.


Ehh I'm not sure about the Spikes comparison. It's something to think about. That last part... Shame on you

Quote:
Simon's lack of COD skills won't really be in play as much when he's playing downhill and attacking the run and eating up fullbacks to keep Brown flowing to the ball and making plays. Where the COD skills will come into play is if you're going to be asking Simon to make plays in space. With Suggs and Upshaw sealing the edge, Simon could really focus on his role as a thumper.


If Simon was put in that position for every snap he could see at ILB I agree he could play there. That's not going to happen though. Even last year with Lewis and Ellerbe neither guy was always attacking the LOS. In that regard Pees uses his ILBs in a variety of ways and they need to be able to do a variety of things.

Quote:
And on 3rd down Simon could be another pass rushing body behind Suggs, Dumervil, and Upshaw to keep the rotation fresh. I personally think that would be the best way to use him. Thumper backer and pass rush depth. Simon's numbers tested similar to AJ Klein in everything outside of BP (where Simon's in a different class). I say have Simon get down to 250 lbs and you've got a projectile missile inside, he's easily more athletic than JJ. If we didn't have Upshaw, Simon would be an A level value in the 4th, but I still think moving Simon inside would put him in competition to be our best thumper linebacker. If he can't cut it inside, then so be it, but I definitely think he could and should get that chance... especially on a team that's willing to try a guy like Kelechi Osemele out at LT.


I think Simon is going to be mostly an DE/OLB in the pass-rush/SAM depth role. One thing to keep in mind for that though is the reports that McPhee is going to see more time as an edge rusher too. His testing numbers don't hold a lot of weight for me because I trust what I've seen him do on the field more than a couple of drills he ran after the season. Like I said before I'm happy that Simon pretty much fills out all the depth in the front seven. There wasn't anybody left on the board I was really pulling for so even though his selection was my least liked in the draft it still wasn't bad. I just hope he gets on the field enough to provide value. Confused
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