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Round 4, Pick 129 - John Simon
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Rayvens52


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 910
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
This is the one pick I do not like. At all.

A Jarret Johnson clone? How is that a good thing? Courtney Upshaw is a better version of Jarret Johnson, and we supposedly just drafted another worse version of Johnson? So basically this guy can't run, can't cover, can't rush the passer, but is decent against the run? Why?

We need athletic OLB's - not slow run stuffers. Just my opinion though.
You're kidding, right? How long have you been watching the Ravens? You speak of J.J like you watched the last couple years of him playing. J.J was a very solid player for us
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hemm68


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
This is the one pick I do not like. At all.

A Jarret Johnson clone? How is that a good thing? Courtney Upshaw is a better version of Jarret Johnson, and we supposedly just drafted another worse version of Johnson? So basically this guy can't run, can't cover, can't rush the passer, but is decent against the run? Why?

We need athletic OLB's - not slow run stuffers. Just my opinion though.


SOLB depth behind Upshaw? If this guy is a Jarrett Johnson clone, that's an AWESOME thing, not a negative. JJ was a very solid player for us for years.


Yes, it was a good thing, but not now. The league is changing and slow, unathletic linebackers are a thing of the past. Sure, this guy might offer some sort of depth behind Upshaw, but Upshaw is now also a depth player behind Dumervil.

I guess I might be being over criticial because I never view 1-4th round picks as "depth" players, which is exactly what this guy seems like. I'm also not a fan of LB's who can't do anything except stop the run.


First off who said he can't rush the passer. I think that's something he does very well

Secondly you're overlooking his biggest asset... two first names as did Ricky Bobby. Game over Shocked
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Yes, it was a good thing, but not now. The league is changing and slow, unathletic linebackers are a thing of the past. Sure, this guy might offer some sort of depth behind Upshaw, but Upshaw is now also a depth player behind Dumervil.

I guess I might be being over criticial because I never view 1-4th round picks as "depth" players, which is exactly what this guy seems like. I'm also not a fan of LB's who can't do anything except stop the run.


I highly doubt that. If anything it's going to be a platoon based on the team Baltimore is playing or the specific situation on the field. I'm not high on the Simon pick either but I don't think Upshaw is a depth player now. I guess one thing this pick does is pretty much solidify all of the quality of depth in the front seven.

DT: Ngata - Spears - Tyson
NT: Williams - Cody
DE: Canty - Jones - McPhee
RUSH: Suggs - Dumervil
WILL: Brown - Bynes - McClellan
MIKE: J. McClain - R. McClain - Hall
SAM: Upshaw - Simon

It's hard to pick out any true starters except for Ngata and Suggs. I left Lewis-Moore out because he's probably going to be stashed on IR this season. A lot of those guys can be moved around though and the depth chart will probably be at it's most fluid state since Ryan was defensive coordinator. That's a good thing. The Simon pick is growing on me.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1.) I get that JJ was a productive player for us. I LOVED JJ, but let's be honest about what kind of player he was and how he's used in the league today. This is a passing league, and JJ is a run-stuffing DE who lacks that athleticism to play in space.

2.) If John Simon can rush the passer very well, why are people comparing him to JJ? JJ wasn't a pass rusher. Never was and still isn't.

3.) Most of our games are played in the nickel. I think Dumervil will be the "starter" and Upshaw will platoon in, yes, like you said, but Suggs is most likely NEVER coming off the field, which means that Upshaw and Dumervil will be rotating in at that spot, and you can also throw in McClellan as well...
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
3.) Most of our games are played in the nickel. I think Dumervil will be the "starter" and Upshaw will platoon in, yes, like you said, but Suggs is most likely NEVER coming off the field, which means that Upshaw and Dumervil will be rotating in at that spot, and you can also throw in McClellan as well...


The sets Baltimore uses are mostly based on the team they're facing. Take the last two games they played for example. Against New England the Ravens were in a nickel formation pretty much the whole game, but against San Francisco they were in a base set for the vast majority of the time. Then for balanced teams (like Cincinnati) they are obviously split more evenly.

I think Suggs will get some more snaps off this year. They finally have another stud pass-rusher to take some pressure off of him. Like I said Upshaw and Dumervil will be more of a platoon and neither player will be much of a "starter." Where Simon comes in is anyone's guess and one of the big reasons that pick didn't sit well with me.

Harbaugh said McClellan was moving to ILB full-time a few weeks ago.
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gooselovechild


Joined: 29 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
1.) I get that JJ was a productive player for us. I LOVED JJ, but let's be honest about what kind of player he was and how he's used in the league today. This is a passing league, and JJ is a run-stuffing DE who lacks that athleticism to play in space.

2.) If John Simon can rush the passer very well, why are people comparing him to JJ? JJ wasn't a pass rusher. Never was and still isn't.

3.) Most of our games are played in the nickel. I think Dumervil will be the "starter" and Upshaw will platoon in, yes, like you said, but Suggs is most likely NEVER coming off the field, which means that Upshaw and Dumervil will be rotating in at that spot, and you can also throw in McClellan as well...


So it wasn't a pasing league when JJ played here a few years ago? Things sure have changed since 2011....don't know how I missed that.

And as to Suggs never coming off the field, how do you figure that? He's on the wrong side of 30 now, less than a year after a tprn Achilles. No one in their right mind is going to expect him on the field 100% of the time.

Let's see how everything plays out before convincing ourselves the sky is falling.
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alfalcone


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll say this, I love John Simon. I think he's a better prospect than Courtney Upshaw, stronger and faster. The only knock on Simon is that he's played with his hand in the dirt the entire time he was at Ohio State. The Jarrett Johnson comparison comes from the fact that both played defensive tackle in college and played / will play linebacker in the NFL. Simon doesn't get enough credit for his athleticism - he's a 4.65 guy who can bench 225 48 times. Its also possible he could play in the middle next to Arthur Brown. he could excell at taking on blockers in the hole. If I had to project the depth chart.

DE Canty, Tyson
DT Ngata, Williams, Cody
DE Spears / Jones / McPhee,
OLB Suggs, Simon, Hamilton,
MLB Brown, McClellan, Hall
MLB Rolando, Jameel, Bynes
OLB Dumervil / Upshaw, Mcadoo
CB - Lardarius Webb, Chykie Brown, Chris Johnson, Marc Anthony
FS - Michael Huff, Omar Brown, Anthony Levine
SS - Matt Elam, James Ihegibo, Christain Thompson
CB - Jimmy Smith, Corey Graham, Asa Jackson
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For an ILB to be able to play effectively in the middle he needs to have lateral quickness. Simon does not. For certain plays I'm sure they could stick him in there but you put put any player anywhere for those designed plays so that's not saying much. It's the same reason why we never say Johnson line up too much at ILB even though a lot of fans were clamoring for it.
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RavensDefense3


Joined: 21 Apr 2011
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Location: Baltimore
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alfalcone wrote:
I'll say this, I love John Simon. I think he's a better prospect than Courtney Upshaw, stronger and faster. The only knock on Simon is that he's played with his hand in the dirt the entire time he was at Ohio State. The Jarrett Johnson comparison comes from the fact that both played defensive tackle in college and played / will play linebacker in the NFL. Simon doesn't get enough credit for his athleticism - he's a 4.65 guy who can bench 225 48 times. Its also possible he could play in the middle next to Arthur Brown. he could excell at taking on blockers in the hole. If I had to project the depth chart.

DE Canty, Tyson
DT Ngata, Williams, Cody
DE Spears / Jones / McPhee,
OLB Suggs, Simon, Hamilton,
MLB Brown, McClellan, Hall
MLB Rolando, Jameel, Bynes
OLB Dumervil / Upshaw, Mcadoo
CB - Lardarius Webb, Chykie Brown, Chris Johnson, Marc Anthony
FS - Michael Huff, Omar Brown, Anthony Levine
SS - Matt Elam, James Ihegibo, Christain Thompson
CB - Jimmy Smith, Corey Graham, Asa Jackson


He benched 48 times? Shocked
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alfalcone


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RavensDefense3 wrote:
alfalcone wrote:
I'll say this, I love John Simon. I think he's a better prospect than Courtney Upshaw, stronger and faster. The only knock on Simon is that he's played with his hand in the dirt the entire time he was at Ohio State. The Jarrett Johnson comparison comes from the fact that both played defensive tackle in college and played / will play linebacker in the NFL. Simon doesn't get enough credit for his athleticism - he's a 4.65 guy who can bench 225 48 times. Its also possible he could play in the middle next to Arthur Brown. he could excell at taking on blockers in the hole. If I had to project the depth chart.

DE Canty, Tyson
DT Ngata, Williams, Cody
DE Spears / Jones / McPhee,
OLB Suggs, Simon, Hamilton,
MLB Brown, McClellan, Hall
MLB Rolando, Jameel, Bynes
OLB Dumervil / Upshaw, Mcadoo
CB - Lardarius Webb, Chykie Brown, Chris Johnson, Marc Anthony
FS - Michael Huff, Omar Brown, Anthony Levine
SS - Matt Elam, James Ihegibo, Christain Thompson
CB - Jimmy Smith, Corey Graham, Asa Jackson


He benched 48 times? Shocked


Yes. That has been his reported max. http://www.muscleprodigy.com/john-simon-workout-arcl-1814.html

He also made the freaks list.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/18992316

5. John Simon, Ohio State, DL: It seems like the Youngstown product has been on this list dating back to the days of Manny Lawson/Vernon Davis. As a 16-year-old, Simon could do 31 reps at 225 when he was turning heads at Cardinal Mooney High, setting weight room records for that storied Ohio prep program. There are heftier D-linemen, but perhaps none who are as strong pound-for-pound. The 6-2, 270-pound Simon is the definition of the word powerhouse. His relentless approach is just as evident on the field as it is in the weight room. "Donald Duck could be the strength coach if John Simon were the only guy in the weight room," said Urban Meyer. According to Mickey Marotti, who has trained more than his share of Freaks in his days at Florida, Simon benched 225 38 times, timed a 4.6 40 and broad jumped more than 10 feet, but the new Buckeyes strength coach says the Freakiest thing about the defensive tackle is his weight room intensity. And, it's that which makes just as big of an impact on his teammates 365 days a year as it does on his opponents on game day.

http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/content/stories/2013/03/26/simon-happy-with-workout-for-scouts.html
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DreamKid


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JJ was a poor man's Upshaw, and John Simon is a poor man's Kruger.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DreamKid wrote:
JJ was a poor man's Upshaw, and John Simon is a poor man's Kruger.


If this guy can bench press 225 48 times, I would venture to say he's a clone of Courtney Upshaw. Actually Upshaw might be a poor man's John Simon...

Idk, I guess I'll reserve judgement until I see this guy on the field, but I just don't like the signing as of right now.
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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DreamKid


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
DreamKid wrote:
JJ was a poor man's Upshaw, and John Simon is a poor man's Kruger.


If this guy can bench press 225 48 times, I would venture to say he's a clone of Courtney Upshaw. Actually Upshaw might be a poor man's John Simon...

Idk, I guess I'll reserve judgement until I see this guy on the field, but I just don't like the signing as of right now.


Bench press numbers have nothing to do with play style, they're very different players.

This was a character draft more so than a player draft imo, it's obvious John has started flexing more come draft day.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
For an ILB to be able to play effectively in the middle he needs to have lateral quickness. Simon does not. For certain plays I'm sure they could stick him in there but you put put any player anywhere for those designed plays so that's not saying much. It's the same reason why we never say Johnson line up too much at ILB even though a lot of fans were clamoring for it.

I disagree. Brandon Spikes isn't the most fleet of foot player out there, yet he excels as a thumper because of instincts and physicality. John Simon is a guy who has those traits. He's instinctive and physical. And while he doesn't have great COD skills, his test numbers weren't that different from Jameel McClain's numbers... who has been a decent thumper LB for us.

Simon's lack of COD skills won't really be in play as much when he's playing downhill and attacking the run and eating up fullbacks to keep Brown flowing to the ball and making plays. Where the COD skills will come into play is if you're going to be asking Simon to make plays in space. With Suggs and Upshaw sealing the edge, Simon could really focus on his role as a thumper.

And on 3rd down Simon could be another pass rushing body behind Suggs, Dumervil, and Upshaw to keep the rotation fresh. I personally think that would be the best way to use him. Thumper backer and pass rush depth. Simon's numbers tested similar to AJ Klein in everything outside of BP (where Simon's in a different class). I say have Simon get down to 250 lbs and you've got a projectile missile inside, he's easily more athletic than JJ. If we didn't have Upshaw, Simon would be an A level value in the 4th, but I still think moving Simon inside would put him in competition to be our best thumper linebacker. If he can't cut it inside, then so be it, but I definitely think he could and should get that chance... especially on a team that's willing to try a guy like Kelechi Osemele out at LT.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DreamKid wrote:
JJ was a poor man's Upshaw, and John Simon is a poor man's Kruger.

I disagree with your comparison. Kruger had the ability to drop back and play in space. He made some nice plays in coverage. He also could change directions at an average to above average level... whereas COD is probably Simon's biggest weakness as a player.

Simon is also a dominant run defender, whereas Kruger was absolute garbage against the run and could keep contain to save his life.

I'd say the onlything comparable between the two players are if you're STRICTLY referring to pass rushing style in your comparison where both Kruger and Simon were relentless effort pass rushers that didn't have the freak jump start, but excel as pass rushers because of their ability to disengage from blockers and create a rushing lane using quick, strong hands. I could agree that they're comparable pass rushers, but not comparable players. I think Simon is more like a cross between Kruger and JJ... though more athletic than both.
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