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Odd man out at QB?
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Who draws the short stick at QB?
Michael Vick
25%
 25%  [ 10 ]
Nick Foles
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Matt Barkley
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Dennis Dixon
60%
 60%  [ 24 ]
We Keep 4 QBs
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 40

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marky_b27


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SiLo wrote:
Why do people think they know what Chip is going to run? Confused


Cause they've seen his Oregon offense

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RBrown86


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think that Vick can be an ok to solid starter in a Chip Kelly, read-option, run based attack. Vick failed the past few years because the stubborn Jedi Reid tried to make him into a pocket passer when he clearly doesn't have the football IQ or ability to be successful in that role. As Blick stated, Vick was a really good football player in Atlanta when all he had to do was manage the running game and scramble himself. A run-oriented offense mixed in with a lot of numerous TE sets would do wonders for Vick in my opinion. He's obviously injury prone, but if he gets injured we just roll with Foles/Barkley and they get more experience. I think it's a win-win situation because we all know Vick won't last a full season (due to injuries or suckage).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Phire wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Phire wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
Phire wrote:
I think we lose our future.

Let's face it, even if Vick can run the read option offense to perfection, we know that system asks quarterbacks to get hit (which is why I'd rather stay away from that offense in the first place), which means Vick is GOING to get injured. There is no reason to believe Michael Vick will remain healthy when he takes too many hits in a west coast style offense. An offense that makes him a ball carrier by design is just a waste of time.

And we lose out on developing Foles and Barkley. They need to see the field. They are the young guys. They are the guys who won't turn the ball over like Michael Vick. If one of them can develop into a franchise QB, or at least a solid QB to run whatever offense Chip creates, then that guy could stick around for 10+ years.

How much better can Matt and Nick get? They certainly haven't reached their ceiling yet.

Michael Vick has already met his ceiling and anything he's doing now as a passer is just overachieving. He has no real future here, and his contract restructure supports that claim.


So RGIII, Kapernick, Wilson Cam have limited futures in the NFL and success in the future as well right? Their teams are doing exactly that!


No... they are young guys. Vick is old, injury prone, and turnover prone. He can't get any better and is not a quarterback you can rely on.


You honestly don't think Vick will get any better if this team puts an emphasis on running the football (his strength) instead of having him throw 500 times a season?

Every QB on the roster will benefit from a healthy running game.
Why stop there?

If your quarterback's strength is RUNNING THE BALL and not THROWING THE BALL then we're boxing ourselves in as a running team, the exact opposite of the previous pass happy offense which will stink just as much.

Give me a healthy running game with a quarterback whose strength is throwing the ball, because, you know, that's what a QB's job is. Then our offense will finally function properly.

Oh, and Vick's 2nd highest attempted throws in a season was 2002. If you tell me the injuries skewed the numbers, there would be some truth to that, but you're also giving the next reason why he shouldn't be a starting QB in the NFL.


But only one QB on the roster can run Chip Kelly's zone-read offense (2 if you count Dixon.... but let's be real). I look at Kaep, Rg3 and Wilson and see exactly what Vick could've been if Andy Reid put the right offensive system in place. Even at his older age, Vick is a better athlete than all but probably RG3 and when you look at how dumbed down and simple all the passing routes these guys run are there is no question Vick could do that.

You act like this high-paced offense requires a ton of intelligence. Dennis Dixon and especially Masoli don't strike me as the smartest guys in the world and yet they both performed like All-Americans at Oregon.

Finally, Vick has become a competent enough passer at this point in his career that you have to respect both his legs and his arm. Look at the Giants game from this year, he was exceptional with a balanced attack and dinked and dunked his way down the field. If anything I think quickening the pace will be an added benefit for him.


Why is the zone-read Chip Kelly's offense? Why do we have to run that offense? Why can't we run Pat Shurmur's offense? Why did the Eagles trade up to get Matt Barkley if he's going to be useless in the zone-read?

I think all three (Kaepernick, RG3, and Wilson) are better quarterbacks than Michael Vick. And really the reason why those teams are even using that style of offense is because they are young guys who are more acclimated to running that offense and applying their skill-sets.

Could Vick do it? Probably, but if we have the chance to run a pro-style offense that's what I want. I really dislike the zone-read offense and I hope defensive coordinators make those three guys look like clowns this year.

The college level doesn't take a whole lot of intelligence. You give it to your best athletes and watch them run.

The pro level requires intelligence because it puts more of an emphasis on intelligence when physical skillsets are basically equal.

I trust Vick as a playmaker and guy who could light up the scoreboard every so often. But I also trust him as a guy who will turn the ball over at the worst time, get injured at some point in the season (which is a guarantee), and someone who needs help from his team more than the team is going to get help from him.

I also absolutely distrust him anywhere near the playoffs. At some point, Michael Vick is going to need to be a quarterback. And when that day comes, and he could have beat up on a lot of regular season teams, but when that day comes I simply cannot trust the ball in his hands.


I have never stated what Chip Kelly is going to run, this is all merely hypothetical, I thought that went without saying... since none of us actually know what he is going to run. I said it earlier I'm not a prophet, I don't know for sure that he will run a zone-read offense or that Mike Vick will be the starter. I'm just going off of what my hunch is and my belief in Vick's strengths and weaknesses and his track record. If Chip were to run a pro-style offense I don't see why he would have even bothered re-negotiating Vick's contract, he would have just cut him at no cost to the team. The fact he wanted him on this roster makes me believe he thinks he can find some use for him.

DCs aren't magically going to solve the zone-read this season, it just will not happen. It is here to stay for the foreseeable future, until QBs start getting injured regularly. But with more and more rules protecting them, it is harder for defenses to take their shots. FWIW, I don't love it either and I prefer the traditional pro-style offense, but right now, on the Eagles, all the pieces are in place to run a successful zone-read offense.

The pro level doesn't require a lot of intelligence either, hell, Mike Vick ran it a ton with the Falcons and ran it near perfection while being an atrocious passer. It is the same concept, put the ball in your best athletes hands and let them do work. There was too much extra BS with Andy Reid, this simplifies things. And it is mostly instincts, and Vick's football instincts are fine... aside from knowing when to slide. The passing dynamics are hilariously simple. RG3 and the Skins ran mostly all 2 and 3 man-routes. Vick may not have excelled in a complex system like AR's but he wasn't awful and improved leaps and bounds in terms of reading a defense and his overall accuracy. This would be like baking pre-made cookies for him.

People also didn't trust McNabb so this is nothing new, but hey, Vick made some plays last year when the game was on the line to lead the offense down the field. In fact, that seemed to be when he was at his best for whatever weird reason.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're taking a much more optimistic view of Michael Vick than I am.

I don't want him as our quarterback. I don't trust him running any system. I will concede that he'll give us an exciting regular season game every now and then but I don't see him regularly playing the position well enough to ever be a part of a championship team in any city.

I don't want a handicapped quarterback who needs to be in the right system with the right amount of runs in order to be successful.

Michael Vick might be the most inflexible quarterback on the roster in that regard, which is exactly the opposite from what Chip Kelly has explicitly stated as being his style and goal.

I want a real QB with potential to grow into something special with the football. Sorry, I only see Vick as a severely handicapped QB who sold a lot of shoes and jerseys back in his heyday because he could run really fast.

As you stated before, Vick's strength is running the ball. A quarterback's job is not to run the ball.

There is something terribly wrong with that picture.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
I think you're taking a much more optimistic view of Michael Vick than I am.

I don't want him as our quarterback. I don't trust him running any system. I will concede that he'll give us an exciting regular season game every now and then but I don't see him regularly playing the position well enough to ever be a part of a championship team in any city.

I don't want a handicapped quarterback who needs to be in the right system with the right amount of runs in order to be successful.

Michael Vick might be the most inflexible quarterback on the roster in that regard, which is exactly the opposite from what Chip Kelly has explicitly stated as being his style and goal.

I want a real QB with potential to grow into something special with the football. Sorry, I only see Vick as a severely handicapped QB who sold a lot of shoes and jerseys back in his heyday because he could run really fast.

As you stated before, Vick's strength is running the ball. A quarterback's job is not to run the ball.

There is something terribly wrong with that picture.


It's a QBs job to move the football and put points on the board, it doesn't matter how you do it.

Do you think people in SF or Washington are complaining that their QBs run the ball too much? Laughing

I'm not enamored with Mike Vick as a QB but I think he has the perfect set of skills to run this kind of offense successfully. You don't want a system QB? Here is news, every QB is a system QB. Who cares if it isn't a traditional offense if it works efficiently and effectively? I sure as hell don't.

I'm just not a big fan of throwing a season down the toilet for an unsure thing like Foles or Barkley. I know what I'm getting with Vick, I know what his weaknesses are, and I know they can be mitigated by putting him in a more friendly system. Right now that system has proven it can exist at the NFL level and work extremely well. We have a guru of that system as our HC, why would we not want to see if we can make some fireworks happen?

And I'll say it again, despite beating a dead horse, if it fails, it fails. You pull the plug after 6 games and let your young guys prove their worth. Those 6 games aren't going to make or break Nick Foles' career.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, that's an issue of optimism regarding the other QBs.

I think we can win just as many games with Foles and Barkley as Vick. We have the coach and the weapons to get that done.

And yes, to my knowledge Washington fans don't want to see RG3 taking excessive contact.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Again, that's an issue of optimism regarding the other QBs.

I think we can win just as many games with Foles and Barkley as Vick. We have the coach and the weapons to get that done.

And yes, to my knowledge Washington fans don't want to see RG3 taking excessive contact.


I agree, I'm not very high on Nick Foles like the rest of this forum is for whatever reason. I don't think he isn't going to be successful right away, he is going to take a ton of lumps. Maybe he'll improve and be the QB of the future but right now I'd like to see this team compete and I don't think he is the there yet. Vick is this team's best option this season, there is no doubt in my mind that is true.

I don't think this team will be nearly as good with Foles or Barkley starting.

Of course they don't want to see him getting crushed, but you can be a good running QB and take less hits, RG3 was way too reckless his rookie season. Taking away his running ability is taking away his best asset, they will never do that.
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killdawabbit


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:

I have never stated what Chip Kelly is going to run, this is all merely hypothetical, I thought that went without saying... since none of us actually know what he is going to run. I said it earlier I'm not a prophet, I don't know for sure that he will run a zone-read offense or that Mike Vick will be the starter. I'm just going off of what my hunch is and my belief in Vick's strengths and weaknesses and his track record. If Chip were to run a pro-style offense I don't see why he would have even bothered re-negotiating Vick's contract, he would have just cut him at no cost to the team. The fact he wanted him on this roster makes me believe he thinks he can find some use for him.

DCs aren't magically going to solve the zone-read this season, it just will not happen. It is here to stay for the foreseeable future, until QBs start getting injured regularly. But with more and more rules protecting them, it is harder for defenses to take their shots. FWIW, I don't love it either and I prefer the traditional pro-style offense, but right now, on the Eagles, all the pieces are in place to run a successful zone-read offense.

The pro level doesn't require a lot of intelligence either, hell, Mike Vick ran it a ton with the Falcons and ran it near perfection while being an atrocious passer. It is the same concept, put the ball in your best athletes hands and let them do work. There was too much extra BS with Andy Reid, this simplifies things. And it is mostly instincts, and Vick's football instincts are fine... aside from knowing when to slide. The passing dynamics are hilariously simple. RG3 and the Skins ran mostly all 2 and 3 man-routes. Vick may not have excelled in a complex system like AR's but he wasn't awful and improved leaps and bounds in terms of reading a defense and his overall accuracy. This would be like baking pre-made cookies for him.

People also didn't trust McNabb so this is nothing new, but hey, Vick made some plays last year when the game was on the line to lead the offense down the field. In fact, that seemed to be when he was at his best for whatever weird reason.


Actually, you have intimated that you are assuming a read option or something similar out of the Eagles this year...twice in this thread.

Here:

BLick12 wrote:

But only one QB on the roster can run Chip Kelly's zone-read offense (2 if you count Dixon.... but let's be real). I look at Kaep, Rg3 and Wilson and see exactly what Vick could've been if Andy Reid put the right offensive system in place. Even at his older age, Vick is a better athlete than all but probably RG3 and when you look at how dumbed down and simple all the passing routes these guys run are there is no question Vick could do that.


and here:

BLick12 wrote:

But you also know that when Vick was previously in a run-centric offense in Atlanta he took the Falcons to the NFC Championship game. He did this as a far inferior passer compared to himself today (completion % alone, is enough to prove that, if you happen to disagree). Andy Reid for the last few years was being his classic stubborn self, insisting on sticking a square peg in a round hole. We now have a HC that has a history of running an offense catered for mobile QBs. Who better to fit it, than one of the most dynamic QBs in the NFL?


If I were a betting man (I'm not), I'd put my money on something similar to the Belicheck/O'Brien spread that may or may not have some read option elements in the playbook over a purely read option-based system ala what Chip used at Oregon (even a tweaked up version for the NFL).

Here's the thing that you and pretty much everyone arguing with you is either forgetting or purposely neglecting to mention:

Chip has been extrmely consistant this offseason regarding competition. Every position (including and especially QB) is up for grabs. He has been pointed that, at this point, the depth chart means nothing. The players will set that over the course of TC/preseason.

The starting QB could be Vick, but that will only be if he wins the job. It could also be Foles. And there is every reasonable chance of that being so. Hell, it's not likely, but Barkley could suprise everyone and become the starter out of the gate. We don't know. You can throw around the word "hypothetical" until you're blue in the face, but your making assumptions based on...nothing at this point.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killdawabbit wrote:
BLick12 wrote:

I have never stated what Chip Kelly is going to run, this is all merely hypothetical, I thought that went without saying... since none of us actually know what he is going to run. I said it earlier I'm not a prophet, I don't know for sure that he will run a zone-read offense or that Mike Vick will be the starter. I'm just going off of what my hunch is and my belief in Vick's strengths and weaknesses and his track record. If Chip were to run a pro-style offense I don't see why he would have even bothered re-negotiating Vick's contract, he would have just cut him at no cost to the team. The fact he wanted him on this roster makes me believe he thinks he can find some use for him.

DCs aren't magically going to solve the zone-read this season, it just will not happen. It is here to stay for the foreseeable future, until QBs start getting injured regularly. But with more and more rules protecting them, it is harder for defenses to take their shots. FWIW, I don't love it either and I prefer the traditional pro-style offense, but right now, on the Eagles, all the pieces are in place to run a successful zone-read offense.

The pro level doesn't require a lot of intelligence either, hell, Mike Vick ran it a ton with the Falcons and ran it near perfection while being an atrocious passer. It is the same concept, put the ball in your best athletes hands and let them do work. There was too much extra BS with Andy Reid, this simplifies things. And it is mostly instincts, and Vick's football instincts are fine... aside from knowing when to slide. The passing dynamics are hilariously simple. RG3 and the Skins ran mostly all 2 and 3 man-routes. Vick may not have excelled in a complex system like AR's but he wasn't awful and improved leaps and bounds in terms of reading a defense and his overall accuracy. This would be like baking pre-made cookies for him.

People also didn't trust McNabb so this is nothing new, but hey, Vick made some plays last year when the game was on the line to lead the offense down the field. In fact, that seemed to be when he was at his best for whatever weird reason.


Actually, you have intimated that you are assuming a read option or something similar out of the Eagles this year...twice in this thread.

Here:

BLick12 wrote:

But only one QB on the roster can run Chip Kelly's zone-read offense (2 if you count Dixon.... but let's be real). I look at Kaep, Rg3 and Wilson and see exactly what Vick could've been if Andy Reid put the right offensive system in place. Even at his older age, Vick is a better athlete than all but probably RG3 and when you look at how dumbed down and simple all the passing routes these guys run are there is no question Vick could do that.


and here:

BLick12 wrote:

But you also know that when Vick was previously in a run-centric offense in Atlanta he took the Falcons to the NFC Championship game. He did this as a far inferior passer compared to himself today (completion % alone, is enough to prove that, if you happen to disagree). Andy Reid for the last few years was being his classic stubborn self, insisting on sticking a square peg in a round hole. We now have a HC that has a history of running an offense catered for mobile QBs. Who better to fit it, than one of the most dynamic QBs in the NFL?


If I were a betting man (I'm not), I'd put my money on something similar to the Belicheck/O'Brien spread that may or may not have some read option elements in the playbook over a purely read option-based system ala what Chip used at Oregon (even a tweaked up version for the NFL).

Here's the thing that you and pretty much everyone arguing with you is either forgetting or purposely neglecting to mention:

Chip has been extrmely consistant this offseason regarding competition. Every position (including and especially QB) is up for grabs. He has been pointed that, at this point, the depth chart means nothing. The players will set that over the course of TC/preseason.

The starting QB could be Vick, but that will only be if he wins the job. It could also be Foles. And there is every reasonable chance of that being so. Hell, it's not likely, but Barkley could suprise everyone and become the starter out of the gate. We don't know. You can throw around the word "hypothetical" until you're blue in the face, but your making assumptions based on...nothing at this point.


Everything I've posted regarding Vick is under the assumption we'd be running some semblance of a read-option system, yes. I've already said that. I have however, never stated that this is what they are definitively going to do. That was my point, I'm not here claiming to know what the plan is, this is my ideal scenario and what I think they should do. Ya dig?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DC's were also never going to solve the run and shoot, the west coast offense, the run and gun and every other offensive scheme ever played in this league.
Oh wait, they did figure out how to defend those systems.
Defenses will catch up with the zone read and it will go away just like every other version of it in NFL history. People act like this is new and that couldn't be more from the truth.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

birdman0069 wrote:
DC's were also never going to solve the run and shoot, the west coast offense, the run and gun and every other offensive scheme ever played in this league.
Oh wait, they did figure out how to defend those systems.
Defenses will catch up with the zone read and it will go away just like every other version of it in NFL history. People act like this is new and that couldn't be more from the truth.


Just like the spread offense, right?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:

Everything I've posted regarding Vick is under the assumption we'd be running some semblance of a read-option system, yes. I've already said that. I have however, never stated that this is what they are definitively going to do. That was my point, I'm not here claiming to know what the plan is, this is my ideal scenario and what I think they should do. Ya dig?


That's 100% groovy and all, but only makes your response to Phire even more assinine. What is your assumption based on? What makes it the "ideal scenario"? Chip also has a history of success with pocket passing QBs. Should we assume that is what he's going to use based on that alone (because there is literally no other reasoning for assuming the read option - hypothetically or otherwise).

Basically, there will be a competition. The winner will be the QB this season. Simple and not hard to understand at all.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
birdman0069 wrote:
DC's were also never going to solve the run and shoot, the west coast offense, the run and gun and every other offensive scheme ever played in this league.
Oh wait, they did figure out how to defend those systems.
Defenses will catch up with the zone read and it will go away just like every other version of it in NFL history. People act like this is new and that couldn't be more from the truth.


Just like the spread offense, right?


Sure. And it's evolved just like defenses...the WCO lasted (in various forms) over 20 years (and some of the principles are still in use). The spread has only been in significant use in the NFL (in various forms), what maybe a decade?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killdawabbit wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
birdman0069 wrote:
DC's were also never going to solve the run and shoot, the west coast offense, the run and gun and every other offensive scheme ever played in this league.
Oh wait, they did figure out how to defend those systems.
Defenses will catch up with the zone read and it will go away just like every other version of it in NFL history. People act like this is new and that couldn't be more from the truth.


Just like the spread offense, right?


Sure. And it's evolved just like defenses...the WCO lasted (in various forms) over 20 years (and some of the principles are still in use). The spread has only been in significant use in the NFL (in various forms), what maybe a decade?


Recent rule changes have also helped the spread offense stay alive. The league is different then it was a decade ago.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZ_Eaglesfan wrote:
killdawabbit wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
birdman0069 wrote:
DC's were also never going to solve the run and shoot, the west coast offense, the run and gun and every other offensive scheme ever played in this league.
Oh wait, they did figure out how to defend those systems.
Defenses will catch up with the zone read and it will go away just like every other version of it in NFL history. People act like this is new and that couldn't be more from the truth.


Just like the spread offense, right?


Sure. And it's evolved just like defenses...the WCO lasted (in various forms) over 20 years (and some of the principles are still in use). The spread has only been in significant use in the NFL (in various forms), what maybe a decade?


Recent rule changes have also helped the spread offense stay alive. The league is different then it was a decade ago.


Right, and perhaps the league is evolving to now incorporate spread-option as well.
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