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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
Woz wrote:
6 TE/3 WR might be going a bit too far in the other direction. However, 5 WR/3 TE/2 HB could definitely work (RBs are in a separate category). 4/4/2 might also work (which I suppose would essentially be near enough to your 6/3 for it not really to matter).


4/4/2 would give us a plethora of options... Would go for that. Again, will Moss play after this year? I think our WR position is going to be slimming naturally soon. All IM really suggesting is to let the WR position sort itself out and draft a coupleTEs, (see turtle I agree with you Smile and keep our FA eyes open.

Nothing real drastic
well this offseason I always said we wouldn't do anything drastic to our passing offense, but next year is a totally different situation.

We will void Joshua Morgan's contract. Will we re-sign him? I hope so, but who knows

Will Moss repeat what he did last year this year with a 30-40 catch season and 5+ Tds? If he doesn't, I can't see them bringing him back at the age of 35 and they might not even if he does have a year like last years.

Will Aldrick Robinson be kept as an exclusive rights free agent?

Briscoe might not even make the team this year and he's a free agent after the season.

So Woz was right if course as were others of pointing out that after this season we have major question marks at WR and TE and drafting those positions could make sense. Although, currently, we don't have roster spots available at WR, next year we could have to fill 3 or 4 spots at WR.

NFL offenses will always have more wrs than tight ends. I really don't understand why you're pushing drafting 2 tight ends next year and having tight ends be our wrs, they'd never get open! Tight ends are fast enough, and don't have the quickness that wrs have to get open vs corner backs. They have size over corners and most safeties, but what are you going to do, throw 5 and 10 yard passes all game long to tight ends? Eventually you're going to want to go deep and 99% you send a speedy WR with at least 4.5 speed deep, not a tight end who runs a 4.7.

The only way we'd draft two tight ends next year is if Paul doesn't make the team this year, and we lose Davis and Paulsen in free agency. At that point, you're hands are tied and need takes over if the talent is there, as it did this year with DBs
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
Woz wrote:
6 TE/3 WR might be going a bit too far in the other direction. However, 5 WR/3 TE/2 HB could definitely work (RBs are in a separate category). 4/4/2 might also work (which I suppose would essentially be near enough to your 6/3 for it not really to matter).


4/4/2 would give us a plethora of options... Would go for that. Again, will Moss play after this year? I think our WR position is going to be slimming naturally soon. All IM really suggesting is to let the WR position sort itself out and draft a coupleTEs, (see turtle I agree with you Smile and keep our FA eyes open.

Nothing real drastic
well this offseason I always said we wouldn't do anything drastic to our passing offense, but next year is a totally different situation.

We will void Joshua Morgan's contract. Will we re-sign him? I hope so, but who knows

Will Moss repeat what he did last year this year with a 30-40 catch season and 5+ Tds? If he doesn't, I can't see them bringing him back at the age of 35 and they might not even if he does have a year like last years.

Will Aldrick Robinson be kept as an exclusive rights free agent?

Briscoe might not even make the team this year and he's a free agent after the season.

So Woz was right if course as were others of pointing out that after this season we have major question marks at WR and TE and drafting those positions could make sense. Although, currently, we don't have roster spots available at WR, next year we could have to fill 3 or 4 spots at WR.

NFL offenses will always have more wrs than tight ends. I really don't understand why you're pushing drafting 2 tight ends next year and having tight ends be our wrs, they'd never get open! Tight ends are fast enough, and don't have the quickness that wrs have to get open vs corner backs. They have size over corners and most safeties, but what are you going to do, throw 5 and 10 yard passes all game long to tight ends? Eventually you're going to want to go deep and 99% you send a speedy WR with at least 4.5 speed deep, not a tight end who runs a 4.7

Thank You for making my point about the WR position sorting itself out next year. I didn't want to go into the obvious details.

As I said earlier: You keep 3, (maybe 4) WR's for that downfield speed. Do we really need to carry 7 WR's?? NO, we don't.

Meanwhile on the line and in the middle of the field you are PUNISHING the other team, making them want to get off the field. Letting their entire secondary know on running plays they are going to be flattened and on Passing plays they need to double cover our muscle in the middle

Are you going to argue that we need to keep 5 WR's? Then the debate comes down to one spot. Really? How many do we really need more than 2 on the outside if we have TE's who can catch?

This way your running game just got alot more dangerous and you can keep the misdirection game going to boot.

Keep some speed on the outside, but physically dominate the entire middle of the field. That's what I'm talking about. Like Woz said, it worked for the Patriots.
I simply think we should bolster the TE position and dominate with it.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
Woz wrote:
6 TE/3 WR might be going a bit too far in the other direction. However, 5 WR/3 TE/2 HB could definitely work (RBs are in a separate category). 4/4/2 might also work (which I suppose would essentially be near enough to your 6/3 for it not really to matter).


4/4/2 would give us a plethora of options... Would go for that. Again, will Moss play after this year? I think our WR position is going to be slimming naturally soon. All IM really suggesting is to let the WR position sort itself out and draft a coupleTEs, (see turtle I agree with you Smile and keep our FA eyes open.

Nothing real drastic
well this offseason I always said we wouldn't do anything drastic to our passing offense, but next year is a totally different situation.

We will void Joshua Morgan's contract. Will we re-sign him? I hope so, but who knows

Will Moss repeat what he did last year this year with a 30-40 catch season and 5+ Tds? If he doesn't, I can't see them bringing him back at the age of 35 and they might not even if he does have a year like last years.

Will Aldrick Robinson be kept as an exclusive rights free agent?

Briscoe might not even make the team this year and he's a free agent after the season.

So Woz was right if course as were others of pointing out that after this season we have major question marks at WR and TE and drafting those positions could make sense. Although, currently, we don't have roster spots available at WR, next year we could have to fill 3 or 4 spots at WR.

NFL offenses will always have more wrs than tight ends. I really don't understand why you're pushing drafting 2 tight ends next year and having tight ends be our wrs, they'd never get open! Tight ends are fast enough, and don't have the quickness that wrs have to get open vs corner backs. They have size over corners and most safeties, but what are you going to do, throw 5 and 10 yard passes all game long to tight ends? Eventually you're going to want to go deep and 99% you send a speedy WR with at least 4.5 speed deep, not a tight end who runs a 4.7

Thank You for making my point about the WR position sorting itself out next year. I didn't want to go into the obvious details.

As I said earlier: You keep 3, (maybe 4) WR's for that downfield speed. Do we really need to carry 7 WR's?? NO, we don't.

Meanwhile on the line and in the middle of the field you are PUNISHING the other team, making them want to get off the field. Letting their entire secondary know on running plays they are going to be flattened and on Passing plays they need to double cover our muscle in the middle

Are you going to argue that we need to keep 5 WR's? Then the debate comes down to one spot. Really? How many do we really need more than 2 on the outside if we have TE's who can catch?

This way your running game just got alot more dangerous and you can keep the misdirection game going to boot.

Keep some speed on the outside, but physically dominate the entire middle of the field. That's what I'm talking about. Like Woz said, it worked for the Patriots.
I simply think we should bolster the TE position and dominate with it.
yeah, uhh don't see it happening. The team Needs speed. We go 4 and 5 wide with speedy wide receivers to create mismatches, not 4 big and slow tight ends who run a 4.7 40. We need return men and gunners on special teams, those are generally you're 4th and 5th wide receivers or even 6th if the team chooses to kept hat many.

I can only think of one Redskins TE in their history that's returned kicks and been a gunner and his name is Niles Paul and he does that because he has WR and RB speed and hits like a Linebacker.

I really don't see any way that an NFL franchise will ever have more tight ends than wide receivers on its roster. The reason is the same as to why teams have more corners than safeties on their roster.

You're thought isn't a bad one, but it isn't going to happen.

The only reason we draft two tight ends next would be if both Davis and Paulsen are gone via Free Agency and I don't see both of them being gone, . Possibly one of them will be gone, but not both. If one of them are on the team and the other one is gone, then and only then, would the team have a decision to make on drafting a tight end in the 2014 NFL draft Imo. If the front office feels what they are bringing back at TE is good enough w/o Davis or w/o Paulsen for 2014, they won't draft a tight end. If they feel, they need to upgrade it because they lose one their top two tight ends in free agency next year, then they will. My hunch is that if one of our top two TE's Davis or Paulsen are gone in the 2014 free agency, we won't draft a tight end, but if both are gone, we will.

We have 4 tight ends right now who all bring something a little different to the table. It's possible if we lose one of our two most complete they will try to replace what that guy does best in the draft but if they both back I don't think we touch the position, unless we're talking late round draft pick.

1. We already have our Gronk- Fred Davis (when healthy). If Fred is gone, I suggest we draft another tight end that can block and catch.

2. We now hopefully have our Hernandez- Jordan Reed.
3. We also have a good blocking tight end- Paulsen
4. Then we have Paul who has speed, and is learning to be a tight end and a better blocker.

5. Then we have Young who is a FB/HB type

I just don't see the need for another tight end unless we lose our top two next offseason via free agency.

I think we'll be drafting a wide receiver in next years draft either in round 2 or 3. We could lose our #2 and 3 next year.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:

NFL offenses will always have more wrs than tight ends. I really don't understand why you're pushing drafting 2 tight ends next year and having tight ends be our wrs, they'd never get open! Tight ends are fast enough, and don't have the quickness that wrs have to get open vs corner backs. They have size over corners and most safeties, but what are you going to do, throw 5 and 10 yard passes all game long to tight ends? Eventually you're going to want to go deep and 99% you send a speedy WR with at least 4.5 speed deep, not a tight end who runs a 4.7.

The only way we'd draft two tight ends next year is if Paul doesn't make the team this year, and we lose Davis and Paulsen in free agency. At that point, you're hands are tied and need takes over if the talent is there, as it did this year with DBs


Yeah, yeah, And the read/option will never work in the NFL... So, how many teams installed a variation after we did last year, and KC is even trying it some with Smith.

Also, along with your "do it all" TE there used to be this thing called the "do it all RB". Now teams are carrying a change of pace back etc..

Point is: The League doesn't change until you force it to.


AGAIN, I'd keep a few WR's for the deep game

But as far as throwing 5 or 10 Yard passes all game : WELCOME TO THE WCO

I'd rather dominate size and strength where the majority of our passes are going, AND keep a couple speedy wideouts who can stretch the perimeter.

Oh and Shame on you for comparing Davis to Gronk, shame...Just because Davis said he prefers himself means nothing. Davis to Gronk is not a legitimate comparison in any way, except that they are both injured right now, and they are both TEs.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:

NFL offenses will always have more wrs than tight ends. I really don't understand why you're pushing drafting 2 tight ends next year and having tight ends be our wrs, they'd never get open! Tight ends are fast enough, and don't have the quickness that wrs have to get open vs corner backs. They have size over corners and most safeties, but what are you going to do, throw 5 and 10 yard passes all game long to tight ends? Eventually you're going to want to go deep and 99% you send a speedy WR with at least 4.5 speed deep, not a tight end who runs a 4.7.

The only way we'd draft two tight ends next year is if Paul doesn't make the team this year, and we lose Davis and Paulsen in free agency. At that point, you're hands are tied and need takes over if the talent is there, as it did this year with DBs


Yeah, yeah, And the read/option will never work in the NFL... So, how many teams installed a variation after we did last year, and KC is even trying it some with Smith.

Also, along with your "do it all" TE there used to be this thing called the "do it all RB". Now teams are carrying a change of pace back etc..

Point is: The League doesn't change until you force it to.


AGAIN, I'd keep a few WR's for the deep game

But as far as throwing 5 or 10 Yard passes all game : WELCOME TO THE WCO

I'd rather dominate size and strength where the majority of our passes are going, AND keep a couple speedy wideouts who can stretch the perimeter.

Oh and Shame on you for comparing Davis to Gronk, shame...Just because Davis said he prefers himself means nothing. Davis to Gronk is not a legitimate comparison in any way, except that they are both injured right now, and they are both TEs.
well the read option could just be a fad like the wildcat if we have a few more RG3 injuries to franchise qbs. I'm not so certain it's here to stay, a majority of the offenses don't run the read option.

So yeah, let me know when teams carry more TEs than wrs bro. Wink
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote: "Yeah, yeah, And the read/option will never work in the NFL... So, how many teams installed a variation after we did last year, and KC is even trying it some with Smith. Also, along with your "do it all" TE there used to be this thing called the "do it all RB". Now teams are carrying a change of pace back etc.. Point is: The League doesn't change until you force it to. AGAIN, I'd keep a few WR's for the deep game. But as far as throwing 5 or 10 Yard passes all game : WELCOME TO THE WCO. I'd rather dominate size and strength where the majority of our passes are going, AND keep a couple speedy wideouts who can stretch the perimeter."

I would tend to agree with turtle28, unless you're sure of the context of Shanahan's statement. A 4-TE set is interesting, but as one can derive from turtle's comment, if you don't have real speed on the wing (even with a WR), defenses aren't going to respect your ability to get over the top. They're going to flood the short zone. Given that TEs can't cut like WRs can, gaining separation vs the better CBs is more difficult. Your guy is going to have to rely on his size virtually every time. When you have a big athletic TE with downfield speed that creates a serious mismatch vs a LB. That forces single coverage somewhere on that side. When you add a 2nd TE & sit the FB, the idea is that you can still run effectively but now you can apply additional downfield pressure & he releases into the pattern faster. If they can get Davis & Reed going on, look out!

But just as turtle28 points out, once you go with a 3 or 4-TEs, now your cutting into your presence out on the wing. What was Shanahan's comment in reference to? My guess would be that he's referring to a short-yardage wrinkle. A 3rd & 1 that they just have to have, or 4th & inches. The other situation would be down deep in the red zone. When you're on the 5-yd line the field is only 15-yds long, it becomes a crowded place. There is no deep threat then. A guy like Niles Paul can be your 5th or 6th wideout & your 4th TE.

Option run or option offense has been around forever. This pistol stuff gives you run, pass & counter all from one formation! It's effectiveness at this level has more than proven itself. However, you might want to consider that these players from the collegiate ranks come from hundreds of different programs. The talent pool is spread much thinner & the QB might play a grand total of what, 48 gms? That's equivalent to just three seasons in the NFL. The wildcat proved you have to be able to pass. Read/option also requires a running game, a very gifted QB, plus poor recognition & discipline on the part of the defense. Take away any one of those REQUIREMENTS and read/option isn't nearly as effective.

Some of us believe that read/option is the safest thing since seat belts but I find the argument grossly flawed because it's presented in a fantasy either/or concept. In reality, Griffin has to play QB! Suggesting he's safer running the football for an additional 800 yards is nonsense. Even if we concede that this QB option run was safe last season, it's but a pipe dream to believe it will always be that easy. It is believed by some & for good reason in some situations, that the free DE or OLB can't get to Griffin in a timely manner (before handing the ball off to Morris). Above are comments that pertain to the 40 time of TEs. Well, go check the 40 time of some of these DEs & OLBs. All these guys run a sub 5-sec 40! When Griffin is in that short gun, about how far away is that DE they're going to cut loose? You're going to give that premier speed rusher a soft corner & a free run & it's going to take him how long to get there? My guess is not long at all.

I can't be the only person who has seen a QB getting hit just as he's handing off the ball on a designed run. Or seen a RB getting blown up the very second he's handed the thing. Everyone here has seen that & we all know how that happens. The blitzer or defensive lineman is unblocked. The counter-argument might be that; yes but it's almost always right up the middle. Consider how deep the punter is & how briefly he's holding onto the thing before it's blocked. Whether free defenders rocked QBs in 2012 and whether they will in 2013 are not the same thing. The main concern is whether running read/option compromises the long-term health of the QB. I suppose 2012 proved that it doesn't. Personally, I'd rather it be some other team that finds out.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly think you will/could see 4 TEs on the field at once and we'd pass out of it. If we did that, I don't think we'd have a running back on the field, we'd have Jordan Reed lined up in the backfield like the Pats do with Hernandez and possibly have some motion going on with him or Paul and maybe start with Davis on the line but them have him motion to a
Wide out. It would be similar to the motions Gibbs used to do with his tight ends.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a little off topic. I think Reed is faster than his combine #s. The leg injury he is dealing with now was injured in his last college game. This means he was running less than 100% Shanny seems to think he plays way faster, and his route running ability helps him get seperation. I think Reed is going to get a most of Pauls sanps, abd Davis and Reed will be on the field together alot!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like a lot what I see in the highlights, he is often wide open. Is he so good or is the defense so bad? Nonetheless I still wish we had a big and heavy TE (like e.g. Witten) to send in the middle, keep the LBs near the line and let the WR go deep.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus21 wrote:
This is a little off topic. I think Reed is faster than his combine #s. The leg injury he is dealing with now was injured in his last college game. This means he was running less than 100% Shanny seems to think he plays way faster, and his route running ability helps him get seperation. I think Reed is going to get a most of Pauls snaps, and Davis and Reed will be on the field together alot!!!!!!
That's definitely on topic, I hadn't thought of that, good point. Well that being the case, hopefully he runs more like a 4.5 something rather than a 4.7. Either way, I think in time he's going to be a force to reckon with, I'm just not so sure it's an immediate impact.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geronimo wrote:
I like a lot what I see in the highlights, he is often wide open. Is he so good or is the defense so bad? Nonetheless I still wish we had a big and heavy TE (like e.g. Witten) to send in the middle, keep the LBs near the line and let the WR go deep.
we do have Paulsen but he's not near as talented as Witten
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Geronimo wrote:
I like a lot what I see in the highlights, he is often wide open. Is he so good or is the defense so bad? Nonetheless I still wish we had a big and heavy TE (like e.g. Witten) to send in the middle, keep the LBs near the line and let the WR go deep.
we do have Paulsen but he's not near as talented as Witten


I'm a moderator of Washington Redskins forum. I want that to sink in when I say I truly detest the Cowboys.

However, to put Paulsen and Witten in the same thread, much less the same sentence, is an absolute travesty.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Geronimo wrote:
I like a lot what I see in the highlights, he is often wide open. Is he so good or is the defense so bad? Nonetheless I still wish we had a big and heavy TE (like e.g. Witten) to send in the middle, keep the LBs near the line and let the WR go deep.
we do have Paulsen but he's not near as talented as Witten


I'm a moderator of Washington Redskins forum. I want that to sink in when I say I truly detest the Cowboys.

However, to put Paulsen and Witten in the same thread, much less the same sentence, is an absolute travesty.
it's a thread about tight ends...
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"markrc99"
Quote:
I would tend to agree with turtle28, unless you're sure of the context of Shanahan's statement. A 4-TE set is interesting, but as one can derive from turtle's comment, if you don't have real speed on the wing (even with a WR), defenses aren't going to respect your ability to get over the top. They're going to flood the short zone. Given that TEs can't cut like WRs can, gaining separation vs the better CBs is more difficult. Your guy is going to have to rely on his size virtually every time. When you have a big athletic TE with downfield speed that creates a serious mismatch vs a LB. That forces single coverage somewhere on that side. When you add a 2nd TE & sit the FB, the idea is that you can still run effectively but now you can apply additional downfield pressure & he releases into the pattern faster. If they can get Davis & Reed going on, look out!


DCRED:
Quote:
I'd rather dominate size and strength where the majority of our passes are going, AND keep a couple speedy wideouts who can stretch the perimeter.

Are you REALLY worried about our #1 TE on the team going up against the other team's #3 or #4 CB? Really?

I think you guys are misunderstanding that I would prefer 4TE sets all the time and I would replace WRs. I have stated repeatedly that I would keep 4 (yeah first i said 3 Laughing) for the downfield threat

I was in favor of having many TEs because then I could have a stable of 2 Receiving TE's (who would be almost as fast as a WR, a couple Blocking TE's, and 1 or 2 who could do it all and the Hback role.

Quote:
But just as turtle28 points out, once you go with a 3 or 4-TEs, now your cutting into your presence out on the wing. What was Shanahan's comment in reference to? My guess would be that he's referring to a short-yardage wrinkle. A 3rd & 1 that they just have to have, or 4th & inches. The other situation would be down deep in the red zone. When you're on the 5-yd line the field is only 15-yds long, it becomes a crowded place. There is no deep threat then. A guy like Niles Paul can be your 5th or 6th wideout & your 4th TE.
.


What I am saying is not so far from the future as you guys think:

http://www.phillymag.com/eagles/2013/05/25/in-chip-kellys-system-much-is-asked-of-the-tight-ends/

I just read, Chip Kelly is talking about going 3 TEs:
Quote:
We are going to go three tight ends in a game. Now, do they go three linebackers? We split them out and throw passes. If they go three DBs, we smash you. So, pick your poison. Simple game. Isnt hard. You guys thought coaching was hard. They bring little guys in, you run the ball. They bring big guys in, you throw the ball.
That pretty much explains some of it.

Now I would keep 6 so that I could choose which type of package to use and have a blend of TE variations to use.

And keep 4 Fast WR's for my outside or sometimes more inside speed.

But if I have 4 WRs and 4 TEs and maybe 2 RBs who can catch well I'm not too worried about having 6 or 7 WRs on the roster.

So even If I want to use just 2TE sets, I always have a Backup for each type of TE in case of injury, or I can play both at the same time if I want those skills on the field....

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1624948-breaking-down-why-the-two-tight-end-offense-is-the-best-in-the-nfl


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:


well the read option could just be a fad like the wildcat if we have a few more RG3 injuries to franchise qbs. I'm not so certain it's here to stay, a majority of the offenses don't run the read option.

So yeah, let me know when teams carry more TEs than wrs bro. Wink


I REALLY hope so man. Waiting to see if our line can protect in a more traditional Shanny WCO... You know I want to see things opened up...

But read Dallas now has 3 receiving TE's on their roster,OH And :
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowboys/post/_/id/4708347/jason-witten-welcomes-a-new-tight-end

Quote:
The Cowboys have plans to utilize the famed 12 personnel grouping which means having two tight ends on the field and there could be a stretch where the Cowboys employ 13 personnel, three tight ends.


and Chip Kelly is definitely going 3TE sets at times

The position is becoming much more in demand in Today's Offense, for Good reasons, at any rate. So I hope we are on the right side of the Exploitation Equation in the years to come.
Whether it's 2TE or 3TE or??? I want an extra card up my sleeve
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