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3.23 (85th overall) - TE Jordan Reed, Florida
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get that Reed is an athletic tight end/h back but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen.

I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
I get that Reed is an athletic tight end/h back but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen.

I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much.


Good points about his height, I probably emphasized that too much. I just see this kid going after the ball and like what I see. Briscoe really disappointed me in that dept. last year

He just separates so well and I believe he's going to get open around the end zone : IF they use him (you are right they haven't featured the TE in the past, I just see that developing)

And he plays physical when he has to- see his stiff arms and knocking DB's around, and that hit where he got blasted by two defenders, lost his helmet but held onto the ball

I just see that style of play helping him (and us) inside the 20. He can turn a screen into a TD quick, and they (Shanahans) do love screens
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Brian23


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I get that Reed is an athletic tight end/h back but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen.

I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much.


Good points about his height, I probably emphasized that too much. I just see this kid going after the ball and like what I see. Briscoe really disappointed me in that dept. last year

He just separates so well and I believe he's going to get open around the end zone : IF they use him (you are right they haven't featured the TE in the past, I just see that developing)

And he plays physical when he has to- see his stiff arms and knocking DB's around, and that hit where he got blasted by two defenders, lost his helmet but held onto the ball

I just see that style of play helping him (and us) inside the 20. He can turn a screen into a TD quick, and they (Shanahans) do love screens


Was Briscoe even on the field last year, besides Preseason?

Reality is his size doesn't matter, if he'll fight for the ball (which Davis sucks at, and is his biggest achilles heel) he's automatically an upgrade in my book. Only Pierre, and to a lesser extent Josh, fight for the ball on this team.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian23 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I get that Reed is an athletic tight end/h back but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen.

I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much.


Good points about his height, I probably emphasized that too much. I just see this kid going after the ball and like what I see. Briscoe really disappointed me in that dept. last year

He just separates so well and I believe he's going to get open around the end zone : IF they use him (you are right they haven't featured the TE in the past, I just see that developing)

And he plays physical when he has to- see his stiff arms and knocking DB's around, and that hit where he got blasted by two defenders, lost his helmet but held onto the ball

I just see that style of play helping him (and us) inside the 20. He can turn a screen into a TD quick, and they (Shanahans) do love screens


Was Briscoe even on the field last year, besides Preseason?

Reality is his size doesn't matter, if he'll fight for the ball (which Davis sucks at, and is his biggest achilles heel) he's automatically an upgrade in my book. Only Pierre, and to a lesser extent Josh, fight for the ball on this team.
Briscoe only saw very limited action. He also seemed like a guy who fought for the ball in the little we saw of him. Briscoe was behind the eight ball all last season because he wasn't claimed till training camp had started on July 27 and all the other wrs had either been in our system for at least a year or was a vet with a lot game experience which we needed for our young qbs RG3 and Cousins.

I'm excited to see what Briscoe can do with an entire year under his belt with the team. I just remember Shanahan raving about him last September when we kept him on the roster, most of the media was shocked he was kept and Shanahan explained how talented he was.
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Brian23


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Brian23 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I get that Reed is an athletic tight end/h back but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen.

I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much.


Good points about his height, I probably emphasized that too much. I just see this kid going after the ball and like what I see. Briscoe really disappointed me in that dept. last year

He just separates so well and I believe he's going to get open around the end zone : IF they use him (you are right they haven't featured the TE in the past, I just see that developing)

And he plays physical when he has to- see his stiff arms and knocking DB's around, and that hit where he got blasted by two defenders, lost his helmet but held onto the ball

I just see that style of play helping him (and us) inside the 20. He can turn a screen into a TD quick, and they (Shanahans) do love screens


Was Briscoe even on the field last year, besides Preseason?

Reality is his size doesn't matter, if he'll fight for the ball (which Davis sucks at, and is his biggest achilles heel) he's automatically an upgrade in my book. Only Pierre, and to a lesser extent Josh, fight for the ball on this team.
Briscoe only saw very limited action. He also seemed like a guy who fought for the ball in the little we saw of him. Briscoe was behind the eight ball all last season because he wasn't claimed till training camp had started on July 27 and all the other wrs had either been in our system for at least a year or was a vet with a lot game experience which we needed for our young qbs RG3 and Cousins.

I'm excited to see what Briscoe can do with an entire year under his belt with the team. I just remember Shanahan raving about him last September when we kept him on the roster, most of the media was shocked he was kept and Shanahan explained how talented he was.


Well, to be honest, you can only really keep two of Morgan, Hankerson, and Briscoe because they're all the same receiver.

I just don't see him making it.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian23 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Brian23 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I get that Reed is an athletic tight end/h back but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen.

I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much.


Good points about his height, I probably emphasized that too much. I just see this kid going after the ball and like what I see. Briscoe really disappointed me in that dept. last year

He just separates so well and I believe he's going to get open around the end zone : IF they use him (you are right they haven't featured the TE in the past, I just see that developing)

And he plays physical when he has to- see his stiff arms and knocking DB's around, and that hit where he got blasted by two defenders, lost his helmet but held onto the ball

I just see that style of play helping him (and us) inside the 20. He can turn a screen into a TD quick, and they (Shanahans) do love screens


Was Briscoe even on the field last year, besides Preseason?

Reality is his size doesn't matter, if he'll fight for the ball (which Davis sucks at, and is his biggest achilles heel) he's automatically an upgrade in my book. Only Pierre, and to a lesser extent Josh, fight for the ball on this team.
Briscoe only saw very limited action. He also seemed like a guy who fought for the ball in the little we saw of him. Briscoe was behind the eight ball all last season because he wasn't claimed till training camp had started on July 27 and all the other wrs had either been in our system for at least a year or was a vet with a lot game experience which we needed for our young qbs RG3 and Cousins.

I'm excited to see what Briscoe can do with an entire year under his belt with the team. I just remember Shanahan raving about him last September when we kept him on the roster, most of the media was shocked he was kept and Shanahan explained how talented he was.


Well, to be honest, you can only really keep two of Morgan, Hankerson, and Briscoe because they're all the same receiver.

I just don't see him making it.
Well I said the same thing last year when Briscoe was even more of a long shot to make it and everyone said he should make it but I think me E and possible someone else. So, if he made it last year, he can certainly make it this year.

He's certainly the 5th or 6th best WR they have in the roster right now and I think it's likely they keep 6 wrs. It really doesn't matter if he's similar to Morgan and Hank, they need depth at their position and I think he makes it.

I do agree that Morgan, Hank and Briscoe are the same type of WR, but Morgan is not likely to be retained after this season. That means that the future at his position lies within a competition between Hank and Briscoe, The Shanahans know that, so I think as long as he practices well and flashes firings he preseason he will make the team again.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote: "I get that Reed is an athletic [TE/HB] but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen. I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much."

The material I have (3 publications) list Reed at 6'3". His speed is considered an asset, such that he can threaten the seam & create mismatches. Equally important, perhaps more so, is that he's quick & releases quick off the snap. From 2011, Lindy lists Niles Paul at 6'1" & PFW has him at 6'0⅞" suggesting he's a short 6'1". Paul is fast, but accordingly, he has "build-up" speed. He also has short arms & small hands. Conversely, scouts make note of Reed's agility & ability to elevate & make the spectacular catch. And the best part is he'll hold on to the thing! I don't know myself, but this all suggests that Reed's catching radius is superior to that of Paul. Does he have a similar advantage over Fred Davis? My guess is no & I agree, if Davis is healthy & dialed (he says he's keen to get it done), he's clearly the starter. There are guys that are bigger & guys that are faster, but Reed brings an excellent combination of the two attributes.

For me, it's imperative that the team fully commits to bringing Reed, Thompson & Jamison up to speed ASAP. These guys add or help to add a dimension to the offense that it currently lacks. I've said before that the read/option is totally dependent on two things, backside collapse and the ability of the QB to exploit it. A third requirement is that when the QB does keep it, those yards he gets are easy yards. It just seems naive to think that those yards are not going to become at least somewhat more difficult & tougher to get. Which is the last thing Robert Griffin needs.
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AntiSuperstar


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
First, I want to say that I appreciate the fact that you've studied the game. It's only my opinion, but for me you're affording little to no weight to poor recognition & breakdowns on the other side.


Good offense is about creating "breakdowns" on defense.

markrc99 wrote:
Above, you're saying not only was Griffin injuried while scrambling as a QB, the big hits he took were on such plays as well. All of which ended by the 2nd game. You obviously didn't see the Cincinnati game where, as in a traditional option Griffin was drawing 300-lbers toward him before handing or pitching the ball to Morris. He was seriously rocked on several occasions. When I mentioned DEs getting free runs at him, this was the type of circumstance I was referencing.


And here you go referencing a triple option play, which I already mentioned takes longer to develop and is a different thing. There's a reason the Redskins mostly abandonned those plays. It's incredibly ignorant to compare a triple option to a standard read/option when the former is a longer developing play. Your comparison is a poor one(also Griffin did hold on to the ball too long that game but I won't labor on that point). Nevermind the innumerable other reasons for why those plays lead to hits, for example the fact that in that week every single option play involved Brandon Banks, usually in the backfield, allowing the defense to key on the option and more importantly, because Banks is such a non-threat as a receiver, the defense remained in base against what was technically 3 WR personnel allowing them to have an advantage in run defense.

Also don't put words in my mouth. I never said hits on read/option plays ended after the St. Louis game.

markrc99 wrote:
I totally reject the notion that Griffin is safer being a QB/ball carrier as oppose to just being a QB. Is playing QB in the NFL a dangerous profession? Of course it is, but to suggest that his job becomes safer by also assuming some of the work load of the RB is complete nonsense, I'm sorry.


To suggest Griffin running an option play is "assuming some of the work load of the RB" is the nonsensical bit. The entire reason the read/option works is because the running back is still running into the middle of that front 7 and attract most of the attention and the contact. While you're busy referencing hits against the Bengals, did you not notice all the hits Grifin was taking on pass plays that game? Everyone always ignores those.

markrc99 wrote:
There are a number of examples you may want to consider. In the Steeler game, Shanahan thought it was a great idea to have his QB play WR. The ball is lobbed out there and not only does the safety separate Griffin from the football, he just literally hammers him! Griffin doesn't land until he's across the state line or some $h!+. Again, this perception that it's all on Griffin and none of it is attributable to Shanahan is false!


What does this have to do with the read/option? Since when am I arguing that Mike Shanahan never called a play that lead to Griffin getting hit? The "perception" you're referring to originated in your own head.

markrc99 wrote:
Then in the Tampa game, on a designed run, Mark Barron gets a hold of Griffin & tries to lift & power drive him into the ground. Later, on a QB draw, he's hit and fumbles the ball into the endzone. He appeared stung from that one as well. In the Atlanta game Griffin is near the sideline, sliding to get down and Sean Weatherspoon doesn't pull up at all. Result, Griffin sustains a mild concussion.

Verses the Ravens, Griffin scrambles and tries to dive forward and sustains a leg-whip of sorts when a big fatty crashes down to get him stopped, even though he again was already close to being down. Robert Griffin is a great player, but he's NOT a ball-carrier! There are all these rules to protect the QB. When you make the QB a runner, that's all out. Despite the success, he's just not built to take that additional punishment. There are examples where Griffin did play with a reckless & senseless abandon. He's highly intelligent, coachable in every respect, but he's too competitive to even remotely figure out what's ridiculously unacceptable or totally unnecessary? I just don't buy that. He knows **** well that he can't do it all on his own. Just so you know, all those other guys on the team, they're suppose to f'n help him. If they can't protect him, can't get open, can't catch the ball or can't break a tackle, then that's it THEY LOSE! The mountain will still be there tomorrow. Climb & conquer it as a team or wait until you can!


Here you go continuing to live in your own world. I like how you reference a play against the Ravens where Griffin was scrambling and got hurt, exactly as I was saying. Previously you reference draw plays and scrambels as runs that "protect" Griffin, something which I never claimed.

markrc99 wrote:
You're right. I was focused on plays requiring a backside read. Meaning, anytime the play went in one direction and the DE on the backside is unblocked, I never saw Griffin turned back around to read the DE's action. It's probably that they're expecting over-pursuit just as any other offense would when running a bootleg. You're referring to the times he's staring right at the front side pursuit, his read as you note.


Give me one example of what you're talking about.

markrc99 wrote:
As you suggest, when Griffin is in that short gun & takes the snap, he checks that free DE and lets it go. I get the quick hitter part, but you don't get the action w/o the sell. My understanding is that the "option" requires some delay of the handoff.


The read/option does not require a delay! That's exactly what Griffin was doing early in the season that resulted in hits on those plays. It's a very simple play, you go through a motion of putting the ball into the running back's chest, a motion I would like to point out which is quicker than most hand-offs, if the DE goes in, Quarterback goes out, anything else happens you hand the ball off. The goal is not to keep the ball in until the last second in the hopes of faking the DE out the best. It's on the contrary, a quick developing read play where the defender tells you what to do immediately. You either force him to aggressively pursue away(from the Quarterback) or you give the ball to Alfred Morris. It's that simple.

It is the exact same principle Alex Gibbs taught to running backs to become decisive one cut runners. In that case, the goal isn't to dance to allow the play to develop. The runner reacts what the 2 lineman he's reading are doing, and takes the hole based on what they do, right away. Not extra cuts, no hesitation. Delay is exactly what you do not want in the system.

markrc99 wrote:
But again, the plays I was referring to is when Griffin acted like bait and was pounded.


Plays that don't exist.

markrc99 wrote:
Also, when the DE crashes the idea is that Griffin keeps it & attempts to get around him.


There's not attempt about it. If a 4-3 DE crashes inside he leaves open space for Griffin to run through, it's about the most easy play one could ever be asked to execute. That's why even in a game where Griifn was slow and hobbled he was picking up 12 yard runs and going out of bounds untouched.

markrc99 wrote:
Now, I never meant to suggest that the DE would do the same thing, on every down, regardless of any other circumstance. On plays the defense is trying to stop run, that DE has to make that read. It's true that if the DE is an Adam Carriker, containing an elusive QB is going to be difficult. That player has no choice but to stay at home.

However, like this cat the Packers have drafted (Datone Jones), he can fill that B gap and INVITE Griffin to keep the football. Of course, he has to be able to come hard, but come under control and redirect when necessary. This thing is as simple as pouched eggs. It's success is paramount on the poor recognition & over-pursuit of the defense and the QB's ability to exploit it. If you don't have all those things happening, down the flush hole it goes! I don't have the material you have, so whether you're seeing poor recognition & breakdown rather than execution, I can't say. But in the example you put forth you've got Trent Williams passing off the DE and pancaking the OLB. I'm tasked with trying to get the run stopped. The redskins are in that pistol, the initial key is always the OT(s), isn't it? They're not trapping the MLB or somebody in the secondary, are they?


You don't seem to realize the geometry of a football field. Attacking downhill in the B gap is not threatening the read/option at all, the Quarterback can take the ball outside every single time.

markrc99 wrote:
No, it's all about collapse on the backside and the QB exploiting it. The wildcat runs the same stuff, but the runner can't pass. Defensively it's still an easy key, but it shouldn't be just for the DE. The CB, the OLB, the safety to that side, they're all keying your Trent Williams. Williams has just cut who, Jason Pierre-Paul loose and defensively I'm going to be concerned about what exactly? A deep bomb to that same side? Uh, no. What was the great divide for the offense is now a jailbreak for the defense if Griffin keeps the football.


You clearly haven't watched the Redskins very closely. A great deal of their deep play action bombs have the Tackle ignoring the Defensive End and having the End blocked by usually a Tight End and running back double team. If you look at those types of plays they look very similar to a read/option play and that's part of the reason they're successful.

The OLB to that side? The Safety to that side? Unless the defense simply has more hats than the offense, none of those contain players are threats. An OLB standing outside making no attempt defend the running back and a Defensive Lineman attacking the B Gap everytime he thinks it's running play

markrc99 wrote:
Follow me? Let me recap, the read is always out on the wing, am I right? I mean, they never cut a DT loose and read/option him do they? Assuming they don't, when I see that pistol and I want to stop run, I'm keying your OTs. Whichever OT cuts the DE loose, defenders to that side know they're the backside option. We also know we can trigger the option by crashing that same DE! Let's move to your adjustment.


Except you don't know it's a read/option. You're under this assumption that a Defensive Lineman has a perfect view of the field and that it's only on read/option plays that a DE is left unblocked, or initially seems to be left unblocked I should say. Wrong.

Most of the Redskins primary short yardage plays for example, don't have the Tackle blocking the DE. On one, they like to have the lineman downblock and/or block a Linebacker based on where they are relative to the defense front, and the ball goes to the Fullback who the DE doesn't have the angle to pursue, he runs right by him. They even a few times last year faked an end-around on this play. One of their other main short yardage plays is to pull a guard(usually Chris Chester) and no lineman or Tight End blocks that DE, who is pursuing looking for the ball carrier. Well, until the Fullback smacks him further outside that is and Morris (likely) runs behind Chris Chester. Those two plays are Washington's primary short yardage running plays.

The Redskins have a run play where Trent Williams pulls all the way across the formation to his right and the runner runs behind him, again that DE isn't going to get anywhere thinking that play is a read/option. Sometimes the Redskins run zone plays where a receiver comes and cuts the DE who was otherwise unblocked. Heck, it's standard against a Wide 9 defense in outside zone to leave the non-playside DE unblocked because he isn't in position to stop a stretch going the other way(and besides, even trying to would be overpursuit and opens up the rollout). Or the numerous screen passes where the DE goes unblocked. Or the simple, but big change-up where that Tight End running right at the DE actually does block him. The point is, whatever the "solution" to the read/option is, it's not as simple as you make it sound.

markrc99 wrote:
San Francisco does this too, they did it against Green Bay. Only, their HB came across the formation, is that what you're suggesting? It would seem your quick hitter now has to be misdirection in order to afford the TE time to get out in front of it. Of course, you could drag him across in motion. The whole point of cutting the DE loose on the back side is so you can block down and have numbers on the front side. The option makes him pay for trying to run it down. Bringing the TE back compromises the advantage you'd otherwise have on the front side. Usually a TE & especially a FB are at a disadvantage vs a DE. You said often times the FB didn't even have to bother blocking the DE, why is that? Because he had collapsed inside and taken himself out, with no support behind him.


The reason the TE or FB passed off on blocking that DE has nothing do with overpursuit! Whether that DE is crashing inside to attack Morris, or staying out for Griffin, the blocker runs right at him and peels off to block someone else. That's the point of the play. You control his pursuit angle and make it harder for him to get a read on the play while having a lead blocker should Griffin carry the ball. I did not say often times the FB didn't have to block the DE, I said he did not block the DE because that's the design of the play.

I don't know why you're thinking it takes long for the Tight End to get around to run at the DE? All I can say is watch the plays, it causes no delays at all. The Tight End/Fullback is sprinting hard directly at the DE, it's much quicker than for example having a trapping or pulling guard say. There's no compromise on the front side either. That Tight End is a much bigger factor coming across the formation then he would be otherwise. You realize the read/option most of the time isn't a stretch play, it's not a width play, that Tight End sealing the edge or something isn't a big factor blocking on the play side one way or the other. I don't know how you can think he was. Alfred Morris had no trouble destroying defenses as the Redskins ran this play over and over and over.

Nevermind the numerous times when the Redskins have 3 men in the backfield, having one of them a wide receiver(or in one game Niles Paul), who serve as pitch men, which forces one of those defenders to account for him. So again, that's not an advantage for the defense. Instead you've taken a Linebacker or SS(it's usually the former, for a number of reasons) out of the play essentially because he has to respect the pitch.

The 49ers didn't run anything what I described. The three plays that are closest are the following: OLB left unblocked initially, Fullback(from straight-ahead, not coming across the formation) cuts him(and misses). The other the RT gets downfield to block a Linebacker, while the 3-4 OLB is left unblocked. Delanie Walker, starting in the backield and coming across the formation, does not run right at him, on the contrary he hesitates and then runs outside wide of the OLB, who is expected to be distracted by the running back, to be a lead blocker for Kaepernick. Incidentally this was an extremely quick developing play that near as I can tell was not a read/option at all, but instead a faked one where Kaepernick runs outside. Finally they ran a play where Delanie Walker coming from the backfield runs outside of an OLB, this time not across the formation. The difference here is that Delanie Walker does not run at the OLB, he's going outside the entire time posing no threat and causing no delay to the outside defender. Now on this last play the distinction is subtle, but even if you overlook the distinction I would point out that all of the examples that game of this play were simple hand-offs, because the 49ers were running 3 wide against dime formations(Dom Capers' usual brilliance) and the OLB could never have been in position to touch the running back behind the line thanks to the defensive front.

markrc99 wrote:
With respect to your description of a play during a Dallas game, you mention leaving the OLB unblocked instead of the 3-4 DE. It seemed Morris ran the ball on the play and in the direction of the unblocked player. I got that Williams kicks out the OLB and Paulsen seals the ILB creating a seam. Williams should've been the key read for the defense & your FB again doesn't have to bother with a befuddled DE.


It's not that the FB "doesn't have to bother." He never blocks the DE on that play.

markrc99 wrote:
I watched highlights of the game and Ware was left unblocked on numerous occasions and after fakes to Morris, RG3 gimped around him every time they wanted to. Ware & that entire side never read Williams nor is he ever aware that RG3 is reading him. I mean, I'm sorry but that's not execution, that's pathetic! That's extremely poor recognition and befuddlement that can easily be corrected.


"Can easily be corrected." Again, if it was, it would have been done. You're overlooking things, one the number of other plays the Redskins run, that's why you can't simply stop the read/option when it's coming. Another factor is, yes, there were plays against the Cowboys where the read man did a poor job of reacting to the play. But here you take a leap and suggest that since that guy failed so badly, adjusting would be easy. Not the case at all. Read your own post, Griffin was hobbled that game and still picking up big chunks of yards and getting out of bounds. What do you think it's like when he's healthy? DeMarcus Ware doesn't have to do nearly as poorly and still get burned. There's nothing easy about adjusting to the play. Especially since it's not even the primary threat to the defense. We're going on almost 20 years now and defense's still haven't figured out how to stop that zone running game, despite the fact that every week the defense is lining up with guys more talented the offensive lineman they're going against. The option is just a nice compliment. Defense's should play it better next year but I'm not sure where this crap about it being "easy" is coming from.

markrc99 wrote:
[I've said before that the read/option is totally dependent on two things, backside collapse and the ability of the QB to exploit it. A third requirement is that when the QB does keep it, those yards he gets are easy yards. It just seems naive to think that those yards are not going to become at least somewhat more difficult & tougher to get. Which is the last thing Robert Griffin needs.


The thing no one gets right is that the thing the read/option most needs is a running game that is already giving the defense trouble. If stopping the read/option was the main concern of a defense their job would be easy. Most people can't get it into their skulls that most read/option plays are hand-offs to the running back. The read/option was successful last year because defenses had a hard time stopping Alfred Morris, and because of that it allowed Griffin to hit them with some big plays. But everyone thinks it's the other way around. Not true at all. If that defender doesn't collapse, as is the case most of the time, Morris gets the ball. If defense's were able to stop Morris on those plays, we wouldn't even be talking about the read/option.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "I get that Reed is an athletic [TE/HB] but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen. I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much."

The material I have (3 publications) list Reed at 6'3". His speed is considered an asset, such that he can threaten the seam & create mismatches. Equally important, perhaps more so, is that he's quick & releases quick off the snap. From 2011, Lindy lists Niles Paul at 6'1" & PFW has him at 6'0⅞" suggesting he's a short 6'1". Paul is fast, but accordingly, he has "build-up" speed. He also has short arms & small hands. Conversely, scouts make note of Reed's agility & ability to elevate & make the spectacular catch. And the best part is he'll hold on to the thing! I don't know myself, but this all suggests that Reed's catching radius is superior to that of Paul. Does he have a similar advantage over Fred Davis? My guess is no & I agree, if Davis is healthy & dialed (he says he's keen to get it done), he's clearly the starter. There are guys that are bigger & guys that are faster, but Reed brings an excellent combination of the two attributes.

For me, it's imperative that the team fully commits to bringing Reed, Thompson & Jamison up to speed ASAP. These guys add or help to add a dimension to the offense that it currently lacks. I've said before that the read/option is totally dependent on two things, backside collapse and the ability of the QB to exploit it. A third requirement is that when the QB does keep it, those yards he gets are easy yards. It just seems naive to think that those yards are not going to become at least somewhat more difficult & tougher to get. Which is the last thing Robert Griffin needs.
Your publications are wrong. At the Nfl combine he was 6'2 and he ran a 4.72, about the same speed as Fred Davis who is two inches taller at 6'4 and weighs 15 lbs more than Reed.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/jordan-reed?id=2540160

Niles Paul is still 6'1, no matter how you want to nick pick an 1/8 of an inch, hes 6'1 on every site known to man. So Reed is an inch taller than him and around the same weight and Reed runs 2.5 tenths slower than him. My point had nothing to do with build up speed, just that he's not big, an inch taller than Paul, about the same weight and hea slower as far as the 40 times go.

Paul needs to work on one area of his game. He has to become more comfortable as a TE with the routes and with catching the ball in traffic as tight ends often have to do. Reed will have to become comfortable with that as well on the NFL level and he has to learn how to block. At this point is actually have Reed as developmental prospect the way Paul was when he was drafted and drafted more as an athlete than as a big contributor as a young player.

I'm not here denying anything with Reed. I totally agree with everyone that he's a great athlete and I agree he has made spectacular catches (in college). I think he's going to develop into a fabulous weapon for this offense, I just don't think it's going to be as immediate as the rest of you. All reports have said he's extremely raw and we all know our offensive passing game is extremely complex.

I agree we need to commit to our new draft picks as we have to our past draft picks under the Shanahan regime, but we shouldn't force it. They should play when they are ready to be contributors and when they can perform better than the veterans.

My guess is that Reed's contributions to this offense will be more similar to what Hankerson's were as a rookie. Rees is extremely raw and needs development in our passing game, just the way Hankerson did the past two seasons.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn Antisuperstar, now that's what I call a post! Great read there and I learned a lot.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you will be surprised with this kids productivity.I think Reed will get all of Paul's snaps on offense. I think Paul only makes this team because of his ability to play special teams. Kyle and Mike seem to really like Reed...They will give him every chance to succeed. I see them using him all over the field. HB, Slot, and TE. I think when people say hes "raw" it pertains more to his pass/run blocking....not his receiving ability. I have posted this before...Davis and Reed on the field at the same time is going to cause serious headaches of Defenses. One will get a S the other will get a LB. Imagine what that will open up down the field and in the middle. Im really excited to see what Kyle can do with this kid!!!!
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
First, I want to say that I appreciate the fact that you've studied the game. It's only my opinion, but for me you're affording little to no weight to poor recognition & breakdowns on the other side.


Good offense is about creating "breakdowns" on defense.

markrc99 wrote:
Above, you're saying not only was Griffin injuried while scrambling as a QB, the big hits he took were on such plays as well. All of which ended by the 2nd game. You obviously didn't see the Cincinnati game where, as in a traditional option Griffin was drawing 300-lbers toward him before handing or pitching the ball to Morris. He was seriously rocked on several occasions. When I mentioned DEs getting free runs at him, this was the type of circumstance I was referencing.


And here you go referencing a triple option play, which I already mentioned takes longer to develop and is a different thing. There's a reason the Redskins mostly abandonned those plays. It's incredibly ignorant to compare a triple option to a standard read/option when the former is a longer developing play. Your comparison is a poor one(also Griffin did hold on to the ball too long that game but I won't labor on that point). Nevermind the innumerable other reasons for why those plays lead to hits, for example the fact that in that week every single option play involved Brandon Banks, usually in the backfield, allowing the defense to key on the option and more importantly, because Banks is such a non-threat as a receiver, the defense remained in base against what was technically 3 WR personnel allowing them to have an advantage in run defense.

Also don't put words in my mouth. I never said hits on read/option plays ended after the St. Louis game.

markrc99 wrote:
I totally reject the notion that Griffin is safer being a QB/ball carrier as oppose to just being a QB. Is playing QB in the NFL a dangerous profession? Of course it is, but to suggest that his job becomes safer by also assuming some of the work load of the RB is complete nonsense, I'm sorry.


To suggest Griffin running an option play is "assuming some of the work load of the RB" is the nonsensical bit. The entire reason the read/option works is because the running back is still running into the middle of that front 7 and attract most of the attention and the contact. While you're busy referencing hits against the Bengals, did you not notice all the hits Grifin was taking on pass plays that game? Everyone always ignores those.

markrc99 wrote:
There are a number of examples you may want to consider. In the Steeler game, Shanahan thought it was a great idea to have his QB play WR. The ball is lobbed out there and not only does the safety separate Griffin from the football, he just literally hammers him! Griffin doesn't land until he's across the state line or some $h!+. Again, this perception that it's all on Griffin and none of it is attributable to Shanahan is false!


What does this have to do with the read/option? Since when am I arguing that Mike Shanahan never called a play that lead to Griffin getting hit? The "perception" you're referring to originated in your own head.

markrc99 wrote:
Then in the Tampa game, on a designed run, Mark Barron gets a hold of Griffin & tries to lift & power drive him into the ground. Later, on a QB draw, he's hit and fumbles the ball into the endzone. He appeared stung from that one as well. In the Atlanta game Griffin is near the sideline, sliding to get down and Sean Weatherspoon doesn't pull up at all. Result, Griffin sustains a mild concussion.

Verses the Ravens, Griffin scrambles and tries to dive forward and sustains a leg-whip of sorts when a big fatty crashes down to get him stopped, even though he again was already close to being down. Robert Griffin is a great player, but he's NOT a ball-carrier! There are all these rules to protect the QB. When you make the QB a runner, that's all out. Despite the success, he's just not built to take that additional punishment. There are examples where Griffin did play with a reckless & senseless abandon. He's highly intelligent, coachable in every respect, but he's too competitive to even remotely figure out what's ridiculously unacceptable or totally unnecessary? I just don't buy that. He knows **** well that he can't do it all on his own. Just so you know, all those other guys on the team, they're suppose to f'n help him. If they can't protect him, can't get open, can't catch the ball or can't break a tackle, then that's it THEY LOSE! The mountain will still be there tomorrow. Climb & conquer it as a team or wait until you can!


Here you go continuing to live in your own world. I like how you reference a play against the Ravens where Griffin was scrambling and got hurt, exactly as I was saying. Previously you reference draw plays and scrambels as runs that "protect" Griffin, something which I never claimed.

markrc99 wrote:
You're right. I was focused on plays requiring a backside read. Meaning, anytime the play went in one direction and the DE on the backside is unblocked, I never saw Griffin turned back around to read the DE's action. It's probably that they're expecting over-pursuit just as any other offense would when running a bootleg. You're referring to the times he's staring right at the front side pursuit, his read as you note.


Give me one example of what you're talking about.

markrc99 wrote:
As you suggest, when Griffin is in that short gun & takes the snap, he checks that free DE and lets it go. I get the quick hitter part, but you don't get the action w/o the sell. My understanding is that the "option" requires some delay of the handoff.


The read/option does not require a delay! That's exactly what Griffin was doing early in the season that resulted in hits on those plays. It's a very simple play, you go through a motion of putting the ball into the running back's chest, a motion I would like to point out which is quicker than most hand-offs, if the DE goes in, Quarterback goes out, anything else happens you hand the ball off. The goal is not to keep the ball in until the last second in the hopes of faking the DE out the best. It's on the contrary, a quick developing read play where the defender tells you what to do immediately. You either force him to aggressively pursue away(from the Quarterback) or you give the ball to Alfred Morris. It's that simple.

It is the exact same principle Alex Gibbs taught to running backs to become decisive one cut runners. In that case, the goal isn't to dance to allow the play to develop. The runner reacts what the 2 lineman he's reading are doing, and takes the hole based on what they do, right away. Not extra cuts, no hesitation. Delay is exactly what you do not want in the system.

markrc99 wrote:
But again, the plays I was referring to is when Griffin acted like bait and was pounded.


Plays that don't exist.

markrc99 wrote:
Also, when the DE crashes the idea is that Griffin keeps it & attempts to get around him.


There's not attempt about it. If a 4-3 DE crashes inside he leaves open space for Griffin to run through, it's about the most easy play one could ever be asked to execute. That's why even in a game where Griifn was slow and hobbled he was picking up 12 yard runs and going out of bounds untouched.

markrc99 wrote:
Now, I never meant to suggest that the DE would do the same thing, on every down, regardless of any other circumstance. On plays the defense is trying to stop run, that DE has to make that read. It's true that if the DE is an Adam Carriker, containing an elusive QB is going to be difficult. That player has no choice but to stay at home.

However, like this cat the Packers have drafted (Datone Jones), he can fill that B gap and INVITE Griffin to keep the football. Of course, he has to be able to come hard, but come under control and redirect when necessary. This thing is as simple as pouched eggs. It's success is paramount on the poor recognition & over-pursuit of the defense and the QB's ability to exploit it. If you don't have all those things happening, down the flush hole it goes! I don't have the material you have, so whether you're seeing poor recognition & breakdown rather than execution, I can't say. But in the example you put forth you've got Trent Williams passing off the DE and pancaking the OLB. I'm tasked with trying to get the run stopped. The redskins are in that pistol, the initial key is always the OT(s), isn't it? They're not trapping the MLB or somebody in the secondary, are they?


You don't seem to realize the geometry of a football field. Attacking downhill in the B gap is not threatening the read/option at all, the Quarterback can take the ball outside every single time.

markrc99 wrote:
No, it's all about collapse on the backside and the QB exploiting it. The wildcat runs the same stuff, but the runner can't pass. Defensively it's still an easy key, but it shouldn't be just for the DE. The CB, the OLB, the safety to that side, they're all keying your Trent Williams. Williams has just cut who, Jason Pierre-Paul loose and defensively I'm going to be concerned about what exactly? A deep bomb to that same side? Uh, no. What was the great divide for the offense is now a jailbreak for the defense if Griffin keeps the football.


You clearly haven't watched the Redskins very closely. A great deal of their deep play action bombs have the Tackle ignoring the Defensive End and having the End blocked by usually a Tight End and running back double team. If you look at those types of plays they look very similar to a read/option play and that's part of the reason they're successful.

The OLB to that side? The Safety to that side? Unless the defense simply has more hats than the offense, none of those contain players are threats. An OLB standing outside making no attempt defend the running back and a Defensive Lineman attacking the B Gap everytime he thinks it's running play

markrc99 wrote:
Follow me? Let me recap, the read is always out on the wing, am I right? I mean, they never cut a DT loose and read/option him do they? Assuming they don't, when I see that pistol and I want to stop run, I'm keying your OTs. Whichever OT cuts the DE loose, defenders to that side know they're the backside option. We also know we can trigger the option by crashing that same DE! Let's move to your adjustment.


Except you don't know it's a read/option. You're under this assumption that a Defensive Lineman has a perfect view of the field and that it's only on read/option plays that a DE is left unblocked, or initially seems to be left unblocked I should say. Wrong.

Most of the Redskins primary short yardage plays for example, don't have the Tackle blocking the DE. On one, they like to have the lineman downblock and/or block a Linebacker based on where they are relative to the defense front, and the ball goes to the Fullback who the DE doesn't have the angle to pursue, he runs right by him. They even a few times last year faked an end-around on this play. One of their other main short yardage plays is to pull a guard(usually Chris Chester) and no lineman or Tight End blocks that DE, who is pursuing looking for the ball carrier. Well, until the Fullback smacks him further outside that is and Morris (likely) runs behind Chris Chester. Those two plays are Washington's primary short yardage running plays.

The Redskins have a run play where Trent Williams pulls all the way across the formation to his right and the runner runs behind him, again that DE isn't going to get anywhere thinking that play is a read/option. Sometimes the Redskins run zone plays where a receiver comes and cuts the DE who was otherwise unblocked. Heck, it's standard against a Wide 9 defense in outside zone to leave the non-playside DE unblocked because he isn't in position to stop a stretch going the other way(and besides, even trying to would be overpursuit and opens up the rollout). Or the numerous screen passes where the DE goes unblocked. Or the simple, but big change-up where that Tight End running right at the DE actually does block him. The point is, whatever the "solution" to the read/option is, it's not as simple as you make it sound.

markrc99 wrote:
San Francisco does this too, they did it against Green Bay. Only, their HB came across the formation, is that what you're suggesting? It would seem your quick hitter now has to be misdirection in order to afford the TE time to get out in front of it. Of course, you could drag him across in motion. The whole point of cutting the DE loose on the back side is so you can block down and have numbers on the front side. The option makes him pay for trying to run it down. Bringing the TE back compromises the advantage you'd otherwise have on the front side. Usually a TE & especially a FB are at a disadvantage vs a DE. You said often times the FB didn't even have to bother blocking the DE, why is that? Because he had collapsed inside and taken himself out, with no support behind him.


The reason the TE or FB passed off on blocking that DE has nothing do with overpursuit! Whether that DE is crashing inside to attack Morris, or staying out for Griffin, the blocker runs right at him and peels off to block someone else. That's the point of the play. You control his pursuit angle and make it harder for him to get a read on the play while having a lead blocker should Griffin carry the ball. I did not say often times the FB didn't have to block the DE, I said he did not block the DE because that's the design of the play.

I don't know why you're thinking it takes long for the Tight End to get around to run at the DE? All I can say is watch the plays, it causes no delays at all. The Tight End/Fullback is sprinting hard directly at the DE, it's much quicker than for example having a trapping or pulling guard say. There's no compromise on the front side either. That Tight End is a much bigger factor coming across the formation then he would be otherwise. You realize the read/option most of the time isn't a stretch play, it's not a width play, that Tight End sealing the edge or something isn't a big factor blocking on the play side one way or the other. I don't know how you can think he was. Alfred Morris had no trouble destroying defenses as the Redskins ran this play over and over and over.

Nevermind the numerous times when the Redskins have 3 men in the backfield, having one of them a wide receiver(or in one game Niles Paul), who serve as pitch men, which forces one of those defenders to account for him. So again, that's not an advantage for the defense. Instead you've taken a Linebacker or SS(it's usually the former, for a number of reasons) out of the play essentially because he has to respect the pitch.

The 49ers didn't run anything what I described. The three plays that are closest are the following: OLB left unblocked initially, Fullback(from straight-ahead, not coming across the formation) cuts him(and misses). The other the RT gets downfield to block a Linebacker, while the 3-4 OLB is left unblocked. Delanie Walker, starting in the backield and coming across the formation, does not run right at him, on the contrary he hesitates and then runs outside wide of the OLB, who is expected to be distracted by the running back, to be a lead blocker for Kaepernick. Incidentally this was an extremely quick developing play that near as I can tell was not a read/option at all, but instead a faked one where Kaepernick runs outside. Finally they ran a play where Delanie Walker coming from the backfield runs outside of an OLB, this time not across the formation. The difference here is that Delanie Walker does not run at the OLB, he's going outside the entire time posing no threat and causing no delay to the outside defender. Now on this last play the distinction is subtle, but even if you overlook the distinction I would point out that all of the examples that game of this play were simple hand-offs, because the 49ers were running 3 wide against dime formations(Dom Capers' usual brilliance) and the OLB could never have been in position to touch the running back behind the line thanks to the defensive front.

markrc99 wrote:
With respect to your description of a play during a Dallas game, you mention leaving the OLB unblocked instead of the 3-4 DE. It seemed Morris ran the ball on the play and in the direction of the unblocked player. I got that Williams kicks out the OLB and Paulsen seals the ILB creating a seam. Williams should've been the key read for the defense & your FB again doesn't have to bother with a befuddled DE.


It's not that the FB "doesn't have to bother." He never blocks the DE on that play.

markrc99 wrote:
I watched highlights of the game and Ware was left unblocked on numerous occasions and after fakes to Morris, RG3 gimped around him every time they wanted to. Ware & that entire side never read Williams nor is he ever aware that RG3 is reading him. I mean, I'm sorry but that's not execution, that's pathetic! That's extremely poor recognition and befuddlement that can easily be corrected.


"Can easily be corrected." Again, if it was, it would have been done. You're overlooking things, one the number of other plays the Redskins run, that's why you can't simply stop the read/option when it's coming. Another factor is, yes, there were plays against the Cowboys where the read man did a poor job of reacting to the play. But here you take a leap and suggest that since that guy failed so badly, adjusting would be easy. Not the case at all. Read your own post, Griffin was hobbled that game and still picking up big chunks of yards and getting out of bounds. What do you think it's like when he's healthy? DeMarcus Ware doesn't have to do nearly as poorly and still get burned. There's nothing easy about adjusting to the play. Especially since it's not even the primary threat to the defense. We're going on almost 20 years now and defense's still haven't figured out how to stop that zone running game, despite the fact that every week the defense is lining up with guys more talented the offensive lineman they're going against. The option is just a nice compliment. Defense's should play it better next year but I'm not sure where this crap about it being "easy" is coming from.

markrc99 wrote:
[I've said before that the read/option is totally dependent on two things, backside collapse and the ability of the QB to exploit it. A third requirement is that when the QB does keep it, those yards he gets are easy yards. It just seems naive to think that those yards are not going to become at least somewhat more difficult & tougher to get. Which is the last thing Robert Griffin needs.


The thing no one gets right is that the thing the read/option most needs is a running game that is already giving the defense trouble. If stopping the read/option was the main concern of a defense their job would be easy. Most people can't get it into their skulls that most read/option plays are hand-offs to the running back. The read/option was successful last year because defenses had a hard time stopping Alfred Morris, and because of that it allowed Griffin to hit them with some big plays. But everyone thinks it's the other way around. Not true at all. If that defender doesn't collapse, as is the case most of the time, Morris gets the ball. If defense's were able to stop Morris on those plays, we wouldn't even be talking about the read/option.


I personally think the read/option is going away. Eric Mangini said it best on NFL 32. The way to stop all the read option is to punish the QB. Every time a team runs the read option make sure you hit the QB. Sure the back will pick up some nice yards, but how often are teams willing to get their QB punished for those nice gains. All the defensive caoches in the league are scheming ways to stop the read/option. The Falcons have sent all their coaches to Clemson to study the ins and outs of the R/O. The cheifs brought in the creater of the pistol formation. Adjustments will be made and R/O goes away IMO
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "I get that Reed is an athletic [TE/HB] but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen. I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much."

The material I have (3 publications) list Reed at 6'3". His speed is considered an asset, such that he can threaten the seam & create mismatches. Equally important, perhaps more so, is that he's quick & releases quick off the snap. From 2011, Lindy lists Niles Paul at 6'1" & PFW has him at 6'0⅞" suggesting he's a short 6'1". Paul is fast, but accordingly, he has "build-up" speed. He also has short arms & small hands. Conversely, scouts make note of Reed's agility & ability to elevate & make the spectacular catch. And the best part is he'll hold on to the thing! I don't know myself, but this all suggests that Reed's catching radius is superior to that of Paul. Does he have a similar advantage over Fred Davis? My guess is no & I agree, if Davis is healthy & dialed (he says he's keen to get it done), he's clearly the starter. There are guys that are bigger & guys that are faster, but Reed brings an excellent combination of the two attributes.

For me, it's imperative that the team fully commits to bringing Reed, Thompson & Jamison up to speed ASAP. These guys add or help to add a dimension to the offense that it currently lacks. I've said before that the read/option is totally dependent on two things, backside collapse and the ability of the QB to exploit it. A third requirement is that when the QB does keep it, those yards he gets are easy yards. It just seems naive to think that those yards are not going to become at least somewhat more difficult & tougher to get. Which is the last thing Robert Griffin needs.
Your publications are wrong. At the Nfl combine he was 6'2 and he ran a 4.72, about the same speed as Fred Davis who is two inches taller at 6'4 and weighs 15 lbs more than Reed.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/jordan-reed?id=2540160

Niles Paul is still 6'1, no matter how you want to nick pick an 1/8 of an inch, hes 6'1 on every site known to man. So Reed is an inch taller than him and around the same weight and Reed runs 2.5 tenths slower than him. My point had nothing to do with build up speed, just that he's not big, an inch taller than Paul, about the same weight and hea slower as far as the 40 times go.

.


Actually you seem to be nit-picking 1/8 of an inch

If you google Jordan Reed, 6'3" all 10 publications are reputable. When you google Jordan Reed 6,2 10 more come up but most of them list him as 6'2 1/2"

So he seems to be a Hair under 6'3, which really isn't worth arguing. Give him some cleats 1/8 higher and it evaporates lol

The important thing is how he creates the space by being Quick In space to separate. He will go for a contested ball but really he seems to be good at finding openings in the D, as Cooley was in his first couple of years

He also made some decent blocks so I can see that being improved, but his strength will be using him down the field where he makes it easy for the QB to find him all alone
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I personally think the read/option is going away. Eric Mangini said it best on NFL 32. The way to stop all the read option is to punish the QB. Every time a team runs the read option make sure you hit the QB. Sure the back will pick up some nice yards, but how often are teams willing to get their QB punished for those nice gains. All the defensive caoches in the league are scheming ways to stop the read/option. The Falcons have sent all their coaches to Clemson to study the ins and outs of the R/O. The cheifs brought in the creater of the pistol formation. Adjustments will be made and R/O goes away IMO


What is your plan going to be when you start getting 15 yard penalties/ejections. The NFL isn't going to let you just tee off on their QB's. Most of the time Griffin would put his hands up and back away, if you hit him you are going to get a 15 yard penalty. If you keep doing it you will get ejected.[/quote]
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 60936
Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus21 wrote:
I think you will be surprised with this kids productivity.I think Reed will get all of Paul's snaps on offense. I think Paul only makes this team because of his ability to play special teams. Kyle and Mike seem to really like Reed...They will give him every chance to succeed. I see them using him all over the field. HB, Slot, and TE. I think when people say hes "raw" it pertains more to his pass/run blocking....not his receiving ability. I have posted this before...Davis and Reed on the field at the same time is going to cause serious headaches of Defenses. One will get a S the other will get a LB. Imagine what that will open up down the field and in the middle. Im really excited to see what Kyle can do with this kid!!!!
I don't see how Reed can do exactly what Paul did, currentlybthe knock on Reed is he can't block. He will be extremely raw as Paul is in the passing game, but I definitely realize Reed has a higher potential, is more athletic and more talented than Paul. I just think that potential shows out inn2014 and beyond, not his season.

I think they'll probably split up those reps or something. If Davis is healthy, Davis will play almost every snap on offense unless they go 4 wide. Paulsen will play the second most snaps because he's a big factor in our run game as he's our best blocking TE. I'm not sure Paul or Reed get a lot of playing time tbh unless if Fred Davis isn't healthy this season.

The way Reed could get playing time is in special packages as you and others have been saying and I'm excited to see what Kyle can do with him also, but is he going to be an every down TE like Davis or Paulsen who puts 500+ yds and 5 tds?

I don't think he'll do that this year. I think it's possible he does that next year, if Davis isn't retained after this season.
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