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49ers Select DE/OLB Tank Carradine at #40
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Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
757-NINER wrote:
Baalke always goes biggest need in first round. .


I wonder when people will ever finally accept that every team tries to fill their needs in the draft and that therefore the majority of picks, by every team in every round, goes to filling their needs at the time they are picking. Highest needs early in the draft; lesser needs later.

It is a rare, rare event when a team sees a guy at a position they have absolutely no need for but take him anyway because he is just so clearly better than anyone left in the draft. If there was such a guy they might well try to trade that pick to someone desperate for that position so that they could pick up extra picks to fill the needs they do have. No one is ever "clearly" better than everyone else left, except maybe for the first few picks. So there never is a "best player" available, only a set of "best playerS" from whom you might find one that fits a need. Or, like us at 34, you might have a few rated equally highly and be willing to take any of them and so can afford to trade back a bit.

If it weren't for teams trying to fill their needs mock drafts wouldn't exist since there would then only be player rankings with teams always taking the guy at the top of the list.


What? You mean to say that the actual execution of "BPA" is rare? Are you saying "BPA" is largely a myth(at least in the higher rounds)?!
I kid, but truly, "BPA" is a luxury and I think the only time it was truly evident in this draft was with Lattimore.


It's not so much that BPA is a myth; moreso that we have to consider that there are 400+ prospects; the grades people teams have for first round picks are all going to fall in line pretty closely, and the same can be said for the other rounds. So when you have a guy on your board who's number 1, say he's rated at something like an 8.8 (just using an arbitrary 10 point scale for grading purposes - sorry if it sounds like i'm comparing the draft to Madden lol), and then you have a prospect who's number 8 on your big board, and grades out at an 8.5, but fills a huge need. Why wouldn't you go with the player that fills a need? The difference at that point is pretty minimal. The problem comes when you have a guy available who grades out at an 8.5, but doesn't fill a need, and then you have a guy who grades out at a 7.0 but fills a need, and you take the guy who's a 7.0. I personally feel that's bad drafting and you should go with BPA at that point.
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Ronnie's Pinky


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:
What? You mean to say that the actual execution of "BPA" is rare? Are you saying "BPA" is largely a myth(at least in the higher rounds)?! I kid, but truly, "BPA" is a luxury and I think the only time it was truly evident in this draft was with Lattimore.


Lemonier may have been a BPA pick, as well. At the point he was taken, I would not have said that backup OLB was our biggest need, but I would have said that Lemonier was probably the BPA; he could have easily gone in the 2nd round. I'm really high on Lemonier in case nobody here had noticed.
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronnie's Pinky wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:
What? You mean to say that the actual execution of "BPA" is rare? Are you saying "BPA" is largely a myth(at least in the higher rounds)?! I kid, but truly, "BPA" is a luxury and I think the only time it was truly evident in this draft was with Lattimore.


Lemonier may have been a BPA pick, as well. At the point he was taken, I would not have said that backup OLB was our biggest need, but I would have said that Lemonier was probably the BPA; he could have easily gone in the 2nd round. I'm really high on Lemonier in case nobody here had noticed.


I really like that pick as well, aside from him suffering from the same delusion that Brett Favre did...mispronouncing your own last name. Following the French rules of pronunciation (it is a French word, after all!), Lemonier should be "Lay-mon-e-yea". Instead, he says it's "Lay-mon-waa". Just like "Farv" should have been "Fah-ray". I know, nitpick but I've been a Geography teacher for almost 15 years, so that bugs me a bit.
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oldman9er


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't curr how he pronounces it. He will always be LemonEAR to me. It's just flows better... less snooty.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldman9er wrote:
I don't curr how he pronounces it. He will always be LemonEAR to me. It's just flows better... less snooty.



I'll call him Lemon-yay. The spelling looks french, I pronounce it french. That's all.

-waaa makes absolutely no sense, phonetically, no matter what language you're using.
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Ronnie's Pinky


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:
I really like that pick as well, aside from him suffering from the same delusion that Brett Favre did...mispronouncing your own last name. Following the French rules of pronunciation (it is a French word, after all!), Lemonier should be "Lay-mon-e-yea". Instead, he says it's "Lay-mon-waa". Just like "Farv" should have been "Fah-ray". I know, nitpick but I've been a Geography teacher for almost 15 years, so that bugs me a bit.


I guessed I missed the part about him mispronouncing his own name. That's pretty awesome. Not to nitpick, but the proper pronunciation of Lemonier would be (in pidgin phonetics) closest to:

Luh - mon - yiaeh

In order for it to be "lay" in the first syllable, there would need to be an accent aigu over the e, which may have been there in the past for all we know, but isn't there now. The "ier" is not really broken up into two syllables in French, where it is a very common suffix, but ends up being two sounds kind of squished together into a single long syllable.

I'll stop being a smartass now. The niners really like doing this: taking players who are clearly more talented than their draft positions, and then developing them. Lemonier is another guy like Eric Reid who suffered in his final (junior) season due to being the best player on a depleted defense and getting picked on a lot by opponents. In San Francisco, where he'll be no more than the 3rd or 4th highest blocking priority for opponents on passing downs, I think this kid could make noise as a nickel rusher this year, though Ahmad is a legit three down player, so he's not getting any PT for free.
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not so much that Brooks isn't a three down player, but we HAVE to start rotating more players in and out. You simply can't continue to play these guys 95% of the snaps and not expect them to wear down. It happend at the absolute worse time for us last season.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
The difference at that point is pretty minimal. The problem comes when you have a guy available who grades out at an 8.5, but doesn't fill a need, and then you have a guy who grades out at a 7.0 but fills a need, and you take the guy who's a 7.0. I personally feel that's bad drafting and you should go with BPA at that point.


Exactly right and in the good old days before free agency (long-ago history) teams used to do that. Now if they find themselves in that position they try to trade out of that spot and get some extra picks like Dallas's trade with us. The new contract structure is such that you can onluy guarantee locking up a guy for a few years. If it's a position where you're so strong that he nevers gets to play and then leaves as soon as he's able to then that kind of pick doesn't help the team.

Teams can still look to the future, but only 4 or 5 years into the future, not a guy's whole career like they used to be able to do
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
oldman9er wrote:
I don't curr how he pronounces it. He will always be LemonEAR to me. It's just flows better... less snooty.



I'll call him Lemon-yay. The spelling looks french, I pronounce it french. That's all.

-waaa makes absolutely no sense, phonetically, no matter what language you're using.


Call him whatever you want as long as the pick doesn't turn out to be a lemon.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-ALL-DAY wrote:
It is not so much that Brooks isn't a three down player, but we HAVE to start rotating more players in and out. You simply can't continue to play these guys 95% of the snaps and not expect them to wear down. It happend at the absolute worse time for us last season.


Precisely. Got to keep them fresh for the Super Bowl game!
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronnie's Pinky wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:
I really like that pick as well, aside from him suffering from the same delusion that Brett Favre did...mispronouncing your own last name. Following the French rules of pronunciation (it is a French word, after all!), Lemonier should be "Lay-mon-e-yea". Instead, he says it's "Lay-mon-waa". Just like "Farv" should have been "Fah-ray". I know, nitpick but I've been a Geography teacher for almost 15 years, so that bugs me a bit.


I guessed I missed the part about him mispronouncing his own name. That's pretty awesome. Not to nitpick, but the proper pronunciation of Lemonier would be (in pidgin phonetics) closest to:

Luh - mon - yiaeh

In order for it to be "lay" in the first syllable, there would need to be an accent aigu over the e, which may have been there in the past for all we know, but isn't there now. The "ier" is not really broken up into two syllables in French, where it is a very common suffix, but ends up being two sounds kind of squished together into a single long syllable.

I'll stop being a smartass now. The niners really like doing this: taking players who are clearly more talented than their draft positions, and then developing them. Lemonier is another guy like Eric Reid who suffered in his final (junior) season due to being the best player on a depleted defense and getting picked on a lot by opponents. In San Francisco, where he'll be no more than the 3rd or 4th highest blocking priority for opponents on passing downs, I think this kid could make noise as a nickel rusher this year, though Ahmad is a legit three down player, so he's not getting any PT for free.


Hey, I was closer to the correct pronunciation than he was. That's all that matters to me! Razz
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SoCalNiner


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
49ers Finest wrote:
757-NINER wrote:
NcFinest9erFan wrote:
I wonder if Baalke called Ten at pick 34 and they called his bluff? maybe he told them you guys want Hunter? if not we'll take him and Titan fell for it and sent us a future 2014 3rd round pick.

I have to ask though but in 2011-2012, wasn't it reported that we did talk to Aldon and AJ or am I wrong? Is it that Baalke and the crew knew who they want year in and year out just by looking at game tape alone?


Nah, I don't think he would have took that gamble. I think he had two guys he liked at 34 but was ultimately looking to trade out of the pick for better value. I think he liked both Ertz and Tank at 34. He was banking on one of them being there after the trade back. Tank happened to be there. Then there was a little run on TEs and I think he saw he was going to miss the boat so he jumped in front of Seattle, who traded back immediately after we took McDonald. Then they ended up taking a TE...McDonald's teammate at Rice, later on in the 7th round, which will be a little subplot moving foward. Did Seattle have their eye on McDonald? Who ended up with the better TE? All that will be decided down the road I guess.

yeah thats what balke said
he said they werent going after just tank, that if they were, then they wouldnt have taken the risk to trade back
he said there was 4 guys they liked there and would be happy choosing either one and thats why they chose to trade back


Exactly. If we had wanted Tank, and only Tank, we'd have taken him at 34 rather than risk losing him. My guess is we really wanted Reid because if we had Elam and Cyprien rated as highly as Reid we might have waited till one or two of those guys had gone.


That's what surprised me about the draft the most. Baalke doesn't really take risks like trading back to get his guy, if he's there at our pick, he'll snatch him. It makes complete sense that we had 4 guys on our board we really liked.
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49ersfan


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at picks 34-40 and who may have been on the 49ers board...i doubt they would have traded away the pick if they wanted Justin Hunter themselves. They likely knew who the Titans target was. We weren't going to select Bernard, Teo, or Smith. Ertz? Possibly, we did want a TE.

I think their main target was CB Darius Slay. Harbaugh said after the draft that they were ready to select CB's at certain spots throughout the draft but they would go a few picks before. Slay went 36 overall and we picked 40.

Just my guess but i think our top targets at the top of round 2 were Slay, Tank, and Ertz, and we would have been happy to select any of them.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronnie's Pinky wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:
I really like that pick as well, aside from him suffering from the same delusion that Brett Favre did...mispronouncing your own last name. Following the French rules of pronunciation (it is a French word, after all!), Lemonier should be "Lay-mon-e-yea". Instead, he says it's "Lay-mon-waa". Just like "Farv" should have been "Fah-ray". I know, nitpick but I've been a Geography teacher for almost 15 years, so that bugs me a bit.


I guessed I missed the part about him mispronouncing his own name. That's pretty awesome. Not to nitpick, but the proper pronunciation of Lemonier would be (in pidgin phonetics) closest to:

Luh - mon - yiaeh

In order for it to be "lay" in the first syllable, there would need to be an accent aigu over the e, which may have been there in the past for all we know, but isn't there now. The "ier" is not really broken up into two syllables in French, where it is a very common suffix, but ends up being two sounds kind of squished together into a single long syllable.

I'll stop being a smartass now. The niners really like doing this: taking players who are clearly more talented than their draft positions, and then developing them. Lemonier is another guy like Eric Reid who suffered in his final (junior) season due to being the best player on a depleted defense and getting picked on a lot by opponents. In San Francisco, where he'll be no more than the 3rd or 4th highest blocking priority for opponents on passing downs, I think this kid could make noise as a nickel rusher this year, though Ahmad is a legit three down player, so he's not getting any PT for free.



It's weird how the one actual french speaker on this board seems to be ignored.. just to make this clear: "lemonier" is not even a french word. It's not a word in any language, as far as I can tell. So, an accent cannot be supposed on the first e, because that e has no raison d'être in the first place. Now, we could think that Mr Lemonier is entitled to pronounce his name-that's-not-even-a-real-word whichever way he chooses, but I simply cannot accept that said pronounciation breaks the rules of phonetics of every known language. There's a reason why any set of letters results in any given sound: to make it possible to read a word out loud. That's it. If we were suddenly allowed to write and pronounce words whichever way we want, then I would also be entitled to read the word blue "red". Phonetics and semantics work together. If you break the rules of phonetics, then words stop to make sense. I'm very disappointed in you, Mr Lemonier. Very disappointed.

Oh, and back to absent accent on the first e... in such a circumstance, a slight accentuation would be implied. We would only pronounce it "luh-mo-nyay" if the name came from two seperate words, "le" and "monier". In this case, the root seems to be "lemon" (which is still not a french word, in french, "lemon" is "citron"), in which case the e is often attached to the m to produce a slightly accentuated sound. So it should definitely be "lem-o-nyay", if you're willing to accept my 30 years of french language expertise.
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Ronnie's Pinky


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Oh, and back to absent accent on the first e... in such a circumstance, a slight accentuation would be implied. We would only pronounce it "luh-mo-nyay" if the name came from two seperate words, "le" and "monier". In this case, the root seems to be "lemon" (which is still not a french word, in french, "lemon" is "citron"), in which case the e is often attached to the m to produce a slightly accentuated sound. So it should definitely be "lem-o-nyay", if you're willing to accept my 30 years of french language expertise.


Yeah, I was assuming that is was a compound name coming from le and monier (though I have no idea what the hell a monier is supposed to be), which would imply the normal pronunciation of the "le" article. If that is not the case, then it should obviously be pronounced along the lines you have suggested, with more of a "leh" in the first syllable. As it is with so many French words, the line between two syllables is often hard to draw - in this case the 2nd and 3rd bleed into one another with a little "ny" linking sound. "monier" is not really properly seperable into separate consonants, but for English speakers, we have to come up with some approximation.

I am theoretically a French speaker, myself, or at least my mother would like to think so, though in truth, I haven't spoken the language regularly since I was a kid. At any rate, "Lemon...wah" is nothing less than an abomination, but I don't care if he can get to the quarterback.
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