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NY Giants 19th Pick Justin Pugh G Syracuse
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NYGiantsman10


Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 10312
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
I'd rate the Pugh pick almost the same as the Frederick pick. Both were reaches based on a ridiculous run on OL talent earlier in the first but filled gaping holes on both team's OL.

The Giants front office doesn't reach for position, he was the best player available at pick 19 mainly due to positional versatility and value that moved him up their draftboard.


The Cowboys had Frederick as the highest on their board at 31 - doesn't mean they weren't reaches. Pugh can potentially play RT and G, Frederick can potentially play G and C.


If he starts from Day 1 and is a good player, then it's not a reach. That's how I look at it even though I didn't like the pick too much
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GmenSeattle


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYGiantsman10 wrote:
If he starts from Day 1 and is a good player, then it's not a reach. That's how I look at it even though I didn't like the pick too much



By this logic most Giants picks are reaches. Razz
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MaddHatter


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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Location: ROH Class of 14
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GmenSeattle wrote:
NYGiantsman10 wrote:
If he starts from Day 1 and is a good player, then it's not a reach. That's how I look at it even though I didn't like the pick too much



By this logic most Giants picks are reaches. Razz


Damn you GS - you beat me to it Laughing
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minutemancl


Joined: 06 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
I'd rate the Pugh pick almost the same as the Frederick pick. Both were reaches based on a ridiculous run on OL talent earlier in the first but filled gaping holes on both team's OL.

The Giants front office doesn't reach for position, he was the best player available at pick 19 mainly due to positional versatility and value that moved him up their draftboard.


The Cowboys had Frederick as the highest on their board at 31 - doesn't mean they weren't reaches. Pugh can potentially play RT and G, Frederick can potentially play G and C.


No they didn't. Garrett in his interview said they had a high 2nd round grade on him. That means 33+.
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aceinthehouse wrote:

1st yr head coaches rarely see success their 1st yr, if at all.
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telso


Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 26
PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/29/examining-pressure-are-left-tackles-overvalued/

Interesting article. I personally think that you need tackles who both can play left side. Those heavy footed right tackles are out of date.
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GEE MEN


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
I'd rate the Pugh pick almost the same as the Frederick pick. Both were reaches based on a ridiculous run on OL talent earlier in the first but filled gaping holes on both team's OL.


"Experts" had Pugh going to the Giants in the 1st round in their mock drafts. "Experts" rated Freddy as a 3rd rounder and I have not seen one "Expert" mock Freddy (actually people have mocked the Freddy pick) going in the 1st round.

In fact, some teams reportedly had Freddy as a sixth or seventh rounder. Laughing

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2013/story/_/id/9221310/nfl-draft-jerry-jones-stunting-dallas-progress

Pretty interesting article....Leave it to Jerruh...
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I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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MaddHatter


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minutemancl wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
I'd rate the Pugh pick almost the same as the Frederick pick. Both were reaches based on a ridiculous run on OL talent earlier in the first but filled gaping holes on both team's OL.

The Giants front office doesn't reach for position, he was the best player available at pick 19 mainly due to positional versatility and value that moved him up their draftboard.


The Cowboys had Frederick as the highest on their board at 31 - doesn't mean they weren't reaches. Pugh can potentially play RT and G, Frederick can potentially play G and C.


No they didn't. Garrett in his interview said they had a high 2nd round grade on him. That means 33+.


Wrong

They only had 19 players with a 1st round grade - #21 on their board was Frederick, #23 was Williams and #24 or #25 was Escobar.
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ny92jefferis


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
minutemancl wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
jerseyboy257 wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
I'd rate the Pugh pick almost the same as the Frederick pick. Both were reaches based on a ridiculous run on OL talent earlier in the first but filled gaping holes on both team's OL.

The Giants front office doesn't reach for position, he was the best player available at pick 19 mainly due to positional versatility and value that moved him up their draftboard.


The Cowboys had Frederick as the highest on their board at 31 - doesn't mean they weren't reaches. Pugh can potentially play RT and G, Frederick can potentially play G and C.


No they didn't. Garrett in his interview said they had a high 2nd round grade on him. That means 33+.


Wrong

They only had 19 players with a 1st round grade - #21 on their board was Frederick, #23 was Williams and #24 or #25 was Escobar.



Two things; First, If Dallas only had 19 players with a first round grade, then why make the trade to 31st? Second, how do you know where these other players were ranked on the Dallas Cowboys draft board? Just getting into this conversation so I might of overlooked a post that explained this already.
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MaddHatter


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They had 19 players with a first round grade but they felt they could get someone equal to who was there at 18 at 31. IE: Sylvester Williams vs. Sharrif Floyd. Travis Frederick vs. Kyle Long, etc.

The Cowboys are pretty open during their press conferences and Jerry, Stephen, and Jason have said how many people they gave a first round grade to, why they moved down and added a 3rd, and where they ranked Travis, Gavin and Terrance on their board.
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NYGiantsman10


Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GmenSeattle wrote:
NYGiantsman10 wrote:
If he starts from Day 1 and is a good player, then it's not a reach. That's how I look at it even though I didn't like the pick too much



By this logic most Giants picks are reaches. Razz


The last Giants pick I hated was Jason Pierre-Paul, so maybe this is a good sign!
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ny92jefferis


Joined: 22 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
They had 19 players with a first round grade but they felt they could get someone equal to who was there at 18 at 31. IE: Sylvester Williams vs. Sharrif Floyd. Travis Frederick vs. Kyle Long, etc.

The Cowboys are pretty open during their press conferences and Jerry, Stephen, and Jason have said how many people they gave a first round grade to, why they moved down and added a 3rd, and where they ranked Travis, Gavin and Terrance on their board.


I definitely agree that Jerry likes to talk, not that I disagree with his entire thought process; I do think he talks a bit much about his game strategy. In their pre-draft conference he talked about salary cap implications and how it would affect their decision making process moving forward as well as other teams. Not to quote his exact words, Jones stated that the draft had value at offensive line positions, that teams would be getting blockers early rather than later, leaving the higher priced skill players on the board and that teams would be taking lesser rated guys relative to where they are taken in the draft. The first topic in that same conference was talks of trading down; again I believe it was to massage their salary cap problems. Jerry all but said that he wasnít going to take the best player available in his press conference because of salary cap issues. Not that I blame the man, there was 9 (if I added it correctly) taken in the first round alone this season, so I donít believe he was the only one thinking it. 2013 saw the highest number of lineman taken since 2003, other years that came close were 2008 and 2011 both containing 8, not certain on the dates but 2008 and 2011 there were issues with the CBA, either eliminating or revising something to that nature.

Was Frederick a reach? I think so, but I also think that Dallas wasnít the only team that reached for an offensive lineman in the first round. I love the Giants pick with Pugh, but I do think they reached in terms of BPA. Was Pugh really the best player available over quarterback, running back, receiver, etc. at some level I think that every team drafts for need but they want to be as close to value as they possibly can be. Need = Value formula. I do think that there was better talent at other skill positions, but I think that because of the amount of offensive lineman taken in the early rounds it vaulted their value considerable.

I recently pulled some numbers from rotoworld pertaining to position salaries; I compiled a list of the average top 5 salaries at each position. It does seem to match with what Dallas did in this draft going for cheaper/ cap friendly positions earlier in this draft rather than later, while making the more expensive positions like receiver, running back and linebacker selections much later in the draft.

LS $1,200,000
FB $3,000,000
P $3,250,000
PK $3,800,000
C $5,500,000
TE $6,072,000
FS $7,000,000
OG $7,200,000
SS $7,500,000
OT $10,400,000
ILB $10,900,000
WR $11,000,000
DT $11,150,000
RB $11,250,000
OLB $12,250,000
DE $14,720,000
CB $15,000,000
QB $20,000,000


I donít buy that Dallas only had 19 players graded out as first round picks. I would buy that they had 19 players that they valued higher in the first round but as much as Dallas trades in the draft, it would be detriment to their team to have only graded 19 players in the first round and then trade down to the 31st pick in hopes of landing on of those guys, unless an offensive lineman that in any other circumstance was graded lower but because of need and salary cap implications rocketed him up on their draft board, when in reality teams valued him as a 2nd or 3rd grade based on his position rather than talent, as I do believe that Frederick is a talented center but typically centers aren't drafted that high.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ny92jefferis - I realize I'm late, but Welcome to the Forum - always love fresh blood Smile

Most teams go into a draft with 15-20 players graded as first round talent. Very few (if any) drafts have 30+ players with a first round grade. I have read that several teams had 15 players with a first round grade this year and that the Cowboys' 19 was one of the higher numbers.

I mean how many players do you feel were worthy of a first round grade (not pick)?
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ny92jefferis


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
MaddHatter wrote:
ny92jefferis - I realize I'm late, but Welcome to the Forum - always love fresh blood Smile


Thanks- I think Laughing

Quote:
Most teams go into a draft with 15-20 players graded as first round talent. Very few (if any) drafts have 30+ players with a first round grade. I have read that several teams had 15 players with a first round grade this year and that the Cowboys' 19 was one of the higher numbers.

I mean how many players do you feel were worthy of a first round grade (not pick)?


Honestly, I couldn't tell you. I know that the Giants don't construct their draft board into rounds, I believe its segmented into rows, ranges 1-16 17-32 something to that nature.

All I'm trying to say is if Dallas had 19 players graded out in the first round and their pick was 18 someone in their first round list at least one player was still available. Whom that was I have no idea. He left a first round talent to select from the second or third round list of players in the first round. If that was the case then he reached. Hearing Jones and his son talk about the trade in regards to salary cap, the offensive line, and and how important it was to keep the 5th year on a player. I get that the impression that the selection was based on salary cap implications.

I don't blame Jerry for his actions of trading the pick, or even trying to better his cap. Just stating what I gathered from hearing him talk about things in his pre draft conference and what happened in the draft.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas had several players with a first round grade still on their board at 18. Sharrif Floyd was one of them (#7 apparently) however when we went on the clock and Floyd was the to-be pick, Kiffin and Marinelli fought against it, saying that he wasn't a fit for their scheme and needs.

That's why Jerry opted to move down, feeling that he could get equal talent at 31 to what was available at 18 (Frederick, Pugh, Long all graded equally apparently).

With the rookie wage scale in place, the salary cap had likely very little to do with it. The 18th pick in 2012 cost 1.5m in cap while the 31st pick cost 1.2m - that 300k difference is minuscule.

Also, with the rookie wage scale, the position the player plays doesn't impact their cap cost
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ny92jefferis


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Dallas had several players with a first round grade still on their board at 18. Sharrif Floyd was one of them (#7 apparently) however when we went on the clock and Floyd was the to-be pick, Kiffin and Marinelli fought against it, saying that he wasn't a fit for their scheme and needs.


Doesn't make much sense to get the input of the defensive coordinators that late in the draft, not saying it didn't happen just doesn't seem likely that a debate of that caliber took place in the war room while they were on the clock and not in some other earlier meeting weeks ago. Most teams would have these discussions during the build of their board. Jerry Jones himself said that they've already played the "what if" game before entering the draft.


Quote:
That's why Jerry opted to move down, feeling that he could get equal talent at 31 to what was available at 18 (Frederick, Pugh, Long all graded equally apparently).


Equal value? If you have the 18th pick and you have a guy rated 7th on your first round board, thats value. The minute he traded down, the value was lost, unless Frederick was on their first round list and not anywhere later. Again Jerry talked about trading down in his pre draft meeting.

Quote:
With the rookie wage scale in place, the salary cap had likely very little to do with it. The 18th pick in 2012 cost 1.5m in cap while the 31st pick cost 1.2m - that 300k difference is minuscule.

Also, with the rookie wage scale, the position the player plays doesn't impact their cap cost


I disagree that it had very little to do with their draft game plan. Thats all Jerry and his son could talk about in their pre draft meetings. Sure it doesn't have a lot to do with anything in the now because of the total rookie allocation, as teams maintain a rookie pool.

Which is why Jerry Jones and his son discussed the 5th year option being vital to remain in the 1st round, otherwise he probably would've traded down again. He said it himself.

After their rookie contracts have expired is what Jerry Jones discussed in detail during the pre draft meeting. Go back and listen to it again, its clearly a topic that both he and his son felt were important issues heading into the draft. Their first 2 picks are cap friendly picks both center and tight ends are paid relatively cheap in terms of other positions.

For example you draft a DT in the first round, after his rookie contract has expired, the average top 5 at that position are getting paid 11 mil a season. Where as center or guard is being paid 5.5 to 7.2 per season. Big difference in salary, considering the salary cap has had little flux in the last couple years. In five years time player salaries will probably have increased 1 - 2 mil as well. So I do believe that the salary cap absolutely had a lot to do with where Dallas drafted. Not saying it had everything to do with their draft planning but it played a role.

edit: After a little further research, trading down to 31 and selecting an interior lineman was actually more cost beneficial than selecting at 18.

Last year contracts of an interior lineman within the range of 18 per rotoworld was 7.8 mil on a four year deal containing a 4.1 mil roster bonus. A DT within the same range signed a four year deal worth 9.5 mil fully guaranteed and a 5.36 mil signing bonus. So actually it did play a role in the now and not just 4 -5 years down the road.
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