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DreamKid


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 601
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
DreamKid wrote:

Elam was my 5th rated safety in this draft, and we selected him over the 3 players I had rated above him. I never graded him out as a starting safety, so if we took him why would I change my opinion? Taking a player I had rated so low in the most important round, of course is going to earn an F. The talent pool at your first round pick will always be the greatest, making it beyond important to snag a true talent.

Kapron was an A pick because we snagged someone who I felt was a great talent late in the draft. You seem to think my grades are crazy because they don't match up with yours. It's simple bad player high in the draft- bad grade, good player low in the draft- good grade.

Prospect evaluation is all about projection, and you bringing up Elam's stats is laughable. Plenty of busts have had gotti stats in college, there are impact stats sure but at Safety Elam's numbers mean nothing. Your not really defending him, rather just expressing anger towards my evaluation of him. Are you going to tell me that all of a sudden he can cover TEs, that he doesn't miss tackles or bounce off runners with shoulder hits, and some how his range will improve with a step up in competition. No, you did nothing to defend him except saying look at the numbers.

It's funny. This was one of the deepest safety classes in some time. Yet, you're 5th rated safety doesn't even earn a starting grade?

1. Jonathan Cyprien
2. Matt Elam
3a. TJ McDonald
3b. Kenny Vaccaro
3c. Shamarko Thomas
6. Eric Reid
7. DJ Swearinger

I could probably name 3-4 other players before even getting to a safety that doesn't have a starting grade in this draft.

But that's getting off track, it's funny. You said that Elam was the 4th best player on your board... 4th... yet he earns an "F" pick. That goes on to prove my point about just how nonsensical your draft grades are. You don't align to any kind of draft standard. You make it seem as though it's as simple as good player in bad round = great grade, bad player in good round = horrible grade... How can a grading tool be so simplistic? How about great player in great round? This would thus mean that based on your grading system such a pick could earn nothing more than a "C" grade because it is expected.

Yet then you go on to prove your grading system to be even more flawed. When we take what are IYO bad players in bad rounds... the team still gets an 'F' even with the level of importance being lowered. Their is no uniformity to your grades- at all.

I understand that grades are mostly based on opinion anyway, but when the 4th best player on someone's board becomes the pick, I find it hard to believe that anyone else is going to rate a player as an "F". And if the 4th best player on your board is what you consider to be a 'bust', then how could any other player in the draft following Elam make any difference to our team anyway... other than the three players we passed on to select him? If Elam isn't even starting quality, what difference does this draft make in the grand scheme of things?


Sorry to cut off so much of your reply, but you misread what I wrote. I'm partly to blame as I was not being very clear either. Elam was at that point my fifth safety, not fifth on my board. For me, having 5 productive starting safeties in one class is quite an achievment.

The grade I give picks from round to round does not need to vary, rather just the percentage effect from that said round. After each round I lowered the importance of hitting on each pick, because the talent pool is shrinking. Elam, Williams, and Simon not bringing in good grades hurt the overall draft's score. Rounds 1-4 are more important to nail, due to an increased talent pool. Though Kap may have been an A pick, his percentage relation to our earlier picks was too diminutive, to bring us into shallower waters. Sure you can look at it like since he's a good player it should be looked at as grabing one of the top players in the draft. But the draft is as much about loss, as it is about gain and losing out on better players in a deeper talent pool hurt us.

DB, I think your reaching to try and prove how outlandish my grades are rather than just excepting it's my opinion. You claim I'm displaying a god complex and then you go on to predict my reaction to your analysis of his tape. Also I never once said safeties only cover TEs, but it is a versatile trait that can be key to a team's success. In our system he won't be asked to, and you're right he will be covering other players here too. But I won't agree he has ability to compete against some TEs, and if he has problems with good ball placement ..well welcome to the NFL. You're being generous about his tackling ability, but I fully understand your not wanting to get into a tape vs tape discussion. I have went down that path before with A. Brown and it is indeed a drawn out process. If you want to point out a game, where you feel he displayed the traits I'm saying don't exists then that's fine. It doesn't have to become a "well at 1:34 in, he took an extra breath and wasn't paying attention" discussion. But you're right I would imagine both of us have seen enough to not budge on our opinions, this is just a time will tell situation.
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DreamKid


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I'll never understand why people on an internet forum grade drafts as an "F" because "X player was MY 5th ranked player at this position" or "I had X player going in the 3rd round".

Get off your high horses, people! Are you employed by the NFL? Did you conduct meetings with these players? Did you watch their private workouts? Did you study as much of their film as the coaches and scouts and everyone else did? No, you didn't.

I never pretend to know anything about the draft, because I really don't. I don't watch these guys in college, I just read what you "experts" post and then go and youtube the players and go from there.

Basically what I'm saying is, DreamKid, you're entitled to your own opinion, but to me, it sounds like you're giving this pick an F because YOU would've picked someone else. You should be grading it with different criteria in mind, not just "I would've taken him later, so F!!!"


SnA if your tongue isn't in your cheek, which it never is. I am wondering if you get the general idea of a forum, or if you just enjoy enthusiastically spreading your verbal seed all over this thing we call the internet. I'm not attacking you either, it's just sometimes you come up with gems that to this day still floor me. You're my favorite poster no matter what your detractors say, never run out of ammo SnA never.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DreamKid wrote:

Sorry to cut off so much of your reply, but you misread what I wrote. I'm partly to blame as I was not being very clear either. Elam was at that point my fifth safety, not fifth on my board. For me, having 5 productive starting safeties in one class is quite an achievment.

The grade I give picks from round to round does not need to vary, rather just the percentage effect from that said round. After each round I lowered the importance of hitting on each pick, because the talent pool is shrinking. Elam, Williams, and Simon not bringing in good grades hurt the overall draft's score. Rounds 1-4 are more important to nail, due to an increased talent pool. Though Kap may have been an A pick, his percentage relation to our earlier picks was too diminutive, to bring us into shallower waters. Sure you can look at it like since he's a good player it should be looked at as grabing one of the top players in the draft. But the draft is as much about loss, as it is about gain and losing out on better players in a deeper talent pool hurt us.

DB, I think your reaching to try and prove how outlandish my grades are rather than just excepting it's my opinion. You claim I'm displaying a god complex and then you go on to predict my reaction to your analysis of his tape. Also I never once said safeties only cover TEs, but it is a versatile trait that can be key to a team's success. In our system he won't be asked to, and you're right he will be covering other players here too. But I won't agree he has ability to compete against some TEs, and if he has problems with good ball placement ..well welcome to the NFL. You're being generous about his tackling ability, but I fully understand your not wanting to get into a tape vs tape discussion. I have went down that path before with A. Brown and it is indeed a drawn out process. If you want to point out a game, where you feel he displayed the traits I'm saying don't exists then that's fine. It doesn't have to become a "well at 1:34 in, he took an extra breath and wasn't paying attention" discussion. But you're right I would imagine both of us have seen enough to not budge on our opinions, this is just a time will tell situation.


The god complex comes specifically from your comment. I listed reasons for why your statement along the lines of, "The front office only selected Elam because of his character and not his talent... because they wanted to appease Harbaugh"... and then I disproved that via listing Elam's stats, credentials, and Ozzie's statement that says how high he along with the rest of the key cogs in our draft room felt about Elam.

So yes, listing all of those things IS defending Elam. Because it's is using a variety of touchpoints one can use in analyzing a player. Statistics offer a measure of performance. Accolades offer a measure of ones exceptional quality above ones peers. And the Ozzie mention offers a collection of opinions that are not simply mines alone.

Yet you somehow believe that NOT ONLY do those touchpoints NOT defend Elam, but that by using them I am simply holding some sort of temper tantrum over your analysis. GOD COMPLEX. The absurdity of such a belief is incredible. And is truly insulting.

What's more, you fail to understand your position. Sure, you have an opinion. But you also have to understand that your opinion is one of the minority involving Elam. I'm sure B-Terp can lend more to this particular area here, but it is my understanding that in law as well as in philosophy, the "Burden of Proof" falls upon the party with whom lays the claims. You 'claim' that Elam cannot tackle well. You 'claim' that Elam's stats mean nothing... this is not the consensus opinion. So therefore, if you want to be taken seriously with any of your claims... then unfortunately, and this is why they call it a burden... you must PROVE your claims to be true, not the other way around.

All of that to say, I'm not going to waste my time arguing a point that most people find to be true, to convince someone who does not see it in that way... especially when that person has come to his conclusions while having watched all of the evidence. I've gotten into tape for tape analysis, heck, against the Pats fans after we beat them in Week 3, I even broke down tape into a series of GIFs that PROVE my point... only to have all of the contents ignored. After that, I learned my lesson.
----------------
Now I'm not saying that I don't agree with some of your points.

For instance I had Elam second on my board due to consistency, with Cyprien ranked above him- slightly. Though I could certainly see why the Ravens would take Elam... as I feel he has more homerun potential.

I also agree withe the point that I would've loved to have traded up for Bailey- which seemed to be something you implied in your OP. Though one thing, DeCosta commented by saying there were WRs that we liked go off the board right before our pick, so I'm not sure where you saw the quote that stated otherwise. I assumed that DeCosta was particularly referring to both Allen and Bailey with that statement. I can agree that Brandon Williams is a boom or bust guy.

I agree that I would have probably preferred a different pass rusher over Simon, someone with more quick twitch ability, however... there weren't really any pass rushers proven to be better than Simon. You've got Mike Buchanan who played in the same conference and didn't produce like Simon and you've got Quanterus Smith who produced against DJ Fluker and had a strong season, but tore his ACL, isn't a stout run defender, and got Fluker early in 2012 before he made some slight improvements to his technique. Smith isn't much different from what we have in Adrian Hamilton from an athlete standpoint either, so perhaps... that's a reason for why we passed over the more athletic options in favor of the more productive/potentially better option.

Simon while being able to rush the pass and set the edge, can also probably see some looks at ILB as a big thumper- he has some versatility to him. He's also a leader inspiring offseason workouts. So sure strong character is involved but at the same time, he definitely has a strong claim to why the Ravens would take him over the other pass rushers- especially when we consider Adrian Hamilton in this equation.

I do agree that I would've preferred 'A tribe called Quess' over Ricky Wagner, but that's one of the picks where I'll trust the front office... and Wagner was better on the right side then the left so that could be the idea. We might also be looking to move back to more of a power based blocking scheme... with Juan Castillo taking over and the Philly connection, Andy Reid loved giant OL players, perhaps Harbaugh shares that preference? Not sure.
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DreamKid


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
The god complex comes specifically from your comment. I listed reasons for why your statement along the lines of, "The front office only selected Elam because of his character and not his talent... because they wanted to appease Harbaugh"... and then I disproved that via listing Elam's stats, credentials, and Ozzie's statement that says how high he along with the rest of the key cogs in our draft room felt about Elam.

So yes, listing all of those things IS defending Elam. Because it's is using a variety of touchpoints one can use in analyzing a player. Statistics offer a measure of performance. Accolades offer a measure of ones exceptional quality above ones peers. And the Ozzie mention offers a collection of opinions that are not simply mines alone.

Yet you somehow believe that NOT ONLY do those touchpoints NOT defend Elam, but that by using them I am simply holding some sort of temper tantrum over your analysis. GOD COMPLEX. The absurdity of such a belief is incredible. And is truly insulting.

What's more, you fail to understand your position. Sure, you have an opinion. But you also have to understand that your opinion is one of the minority involving Elam. I'm sure B-Terp can lend more to this particular area here, but it is my understanding that in law as well as in philosophy, the "Burden of Proof" falls upon the party with whom lays the claims. You 'claim' that Elam cannot tackle well. You 'claim' that Elam's stats mean nothing... this is not the consensus opinion. So therefore, if you want to be taken seriously with any of your claims... then unfortunately, and this is why they call it a burden... you must PROVE your claims to be true, not the other way around.

All of that to say, I'm not going to waste my time arguing a point that most people find to be true, to convince someone who does not see it in that way... especially when that person has come to his conclusions while having watched all of the evidence. I've gotten into tape for tape analysis, heck, against the Pats fans after we beat them in Week 3, I even broke down tape into a series of GIFs that PROVE my point... only to have all of the contents ignored. After that, I learned my lesson.
----------------
Now I'm not saying that I don't agree with some of your points.

For instance I had Elam second on my board due to consistency, with Cyprien ranked above him- slightly. Though I could certainly see why the Ravens would take Elam... as I feel he has more homerun potential.

I also agree withe the point that I would've loved to have traded up for Bailey- which seemed to be something you implied in your OP. Though one thing, DeCosta commented by saying there were WRs that we liked go off the board right before our pick, so I'm not sure where you saw the quote that stated otherwise. I assumed that DeCosta was particularly referring to both Allen and Bailey with that statement. I can agree that Brandon Williams is a boom or bust guy.

I agree that I would have probably preferred a different pass rusher over Simon, someone with more quick twitch ability, however... there weren't really any pass rushers proven to be better than Simon. You've got Mike Buchanan who played in the same conference and didn't produce like Simon and you've got Quanterus Smith who produced against DJ Fluker and had a strong season, but tore his ACL, isn't a stout run defender, and got Fluker early in 2012 before he made some slight improvements to his technique. Smith isn't much different from what we have in Adrian Hamilton from an athlete standpoint either, so perhaps... that's a reason for why we passed over the more athletic options in favor of the more productive/potentially better option.

Simon while being able to rush the pass and set the edge, can also probably see some looks at ILB as a big thumper- he has some versatility to him. He's also a leader inspiring offseason workouts. So sure strong character is involved but at the same time, he definitely has a strong claim to why the Ravens would take him over the other pass rushers- especially when we consider Adrian Hamilton in this equation.

I do agree that I would've preferred 'A tribe called Quess' over Ricky Wagner, but that's one of the picks where I'll trust the front office... and Wagner was better on the right side then the left so that could be the idea. We might also be looking to move back to more of a power based blocking scheme... with Juan Castillo taking over and the Philly connection, Andy Reid loved giant OL players, perhaps Harbaugh shares that preference? Not sure.


You drifted in and out of defending Elam's skill as player in relation to the other safeties, and trying to justify your contention that Elam was in fact viewed as a skillful player in the eyes of the FO. Don't act like everything you formulated was solely for the purpose of challenging my claim, that his character shot him up the board. You can't disprove my claim because we will never know, it's just speculation on my part. I don't care if Ozzie said he thinks Elam is the best prospect ever, I wouldn't believe it. True my theory is very much in the minority, but I have no "Burden of Truth". I'm not looking to prove any point, or to have my opinion universally accepted. You get stuck on one aspect of an argument and go off on wild tangents, ending up with you arguing the argument not the point. Also don't act like if I showed you evidence exhibiting Elam's poor ability you would just suck it up and move on, you would challenge it. Holding the majority opinion and inundating the minority with it doesn't make it fact.

I don't need to see things the way you do DB, nor do you need to see things the way I do. That's not what any of this is about, it's just fun to get others thoughts. My thoughts (Draft Evaluation) you disagree with so much that your trying to just push it out of your rational universe. While also trying to get me to understand why I'm wrong, you're on a fool's journey. Be wary of pawning things off as crazy, just because you sharply disagree. Especially when it is something as simple as Draft talk, as much as we all do love it. I'm happy my post got everyone so involved but it wasn't meant to be the inflammatory post it turned out to be. I had Elam rated very low throughout the process, even in my safety rankings I released a long time ago. He did nothing to change my mind, and we selected him in the most important round. Of course that would earn a bad grade from me, and immediately lessen the chances of our draft grading out well in the end. This is all being taken way to seriously, instead of just being accepted as my opinion. Also the time you and I put into scouting draft prospects dwarfs I would guess over 85% of this forum's members. So the majority in this forum you hold with regards to Elam as a good pick, are meaningless to me. I accepted that you have an educated opinion of Elam, and feel that he was a great pick. You can't accept that I have an educated opinion of Elam, and don't feel it was a good pick. You need to slap a crazy label on it to justify its annoying existence, you're being closed-minded.

------------------

Remember Elam also had more freedom to roam than other college DBs, leading to I'm sure some of those inconsistencies you felt he had.

I remember Eric or Ozzie saying a WO wasn't taken right before us that we wanted. Not enough though to call it fact, but yea I would've loved Bailey. Still think he is the next Derrick Mason, cool for him though to get to play next to his pal.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DreamKid wrote:
I remember Eric or Ozzie saying a WO wasn't taken right before us that we wanted. Not enough though to call it fact, but yea I would've loved Bailey. Still think he is the next Derrick Mason, cool for him though to get to play next to his pal.

That would be Ozzie in the presser immediately after the 7th round ended. IIRC he was asked a question specifically about Bailey and Patton and whether they were poised to take either of them before having them taken just before the Ravens were OTC
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DreamKid wrote:

You drifted in and out of defending Elam's skill as player in relation to the other safeties, and trying to justify your contention that Elam was in fact viewed as a skillful player in the eyes of the FO. Don't act like everything you formulated was solely for the purpose of challenging my claim, that his character shot him up the board. You can't disprove my claim because we will never know, it's just speculation on my part. I don't care if Ozzie said he thinks Elam is the best prospect ever, I wouldn't believe it. True my theory is very much in the minority, but I have no "Burden of Truth". I'm not looking to prove any point, or to have my opinion universally accepted. You get stuck on one aspect of an argument and go off on wild tangents, ending up with you arguing the argument not the point. Also don't act like if I showed you evidence exhibiting Elam's poor ability you would just suck it up and move on, you would challenge it. Holding the majority opinion and inundating the minority with it doesn't make it fact.

I don't need to see things the way you do DB, nor do you need to see things the way I do. That's not what any of this is about, it's just fun to get others thoughts. My thoughts (Draft Evaluation) you disagree with so much that your trying to just push it out of your rational universe. While also trying to get me to understand why I'm wrong, you're on a fool's journey. Be wary of pawning things off as crazy, just because you sharply disagree. Especially when it is something as simple as Draft talk, as much as we all do love it. I'm happy my post got everyone so involved but it wasn't meant to be the inflammatory post it turned out to be. I had Elam rated very low throughout the process, even in my safety rankings I released a long time ago. He did nothing to change my mind, and we selected him in the most important round. Of course that would earn a bad grade from me, and immediately lessen the chances of our draft grading out well in the end. This is all being taken way to seriously, instead of just being accepted as my opinion. Also the time you and I put into scouting draft prospects dwarfs I would guess over 85% of this forum's members. So the majority in this forum you hold with regards to Elam as a good pick, are meaningless to me. I accepted that you have an educated opinion of Elam, and feel that he was a great pick. You can't accept that I have an educated opinion of Elam, and don't feel it was a good pick. You need to slap a crazy label on it to justify its annoying existence, you're being closed-minded.

------------------

Remember Elam also had more freedom to roam than other college DBs, leading to I'm sure some of those inconsistencies you felt he had.

I remember Eric or Ozzie saying a WO wasn't taken right before us that we wanted. Not enough though to call it fact, but yea I would've loved Bailey. Still think he is the next Derrick Mason, cool for him though to get to play next to his pal.

1. Wait, what? The front office selected Elam as the first pick in the draft... so how is that selection not proof alone that Elam was indeed the best player on their board at the time of the selection. I further justified this by listing credentials. In terms of defending Elam in relation to his peers... I've already stated that he was #2 on my board and I've stated what he does right and wrong. I've never actually compared Elam to any other safety in this thread outside of mentioning Cyprien to be more consistent... so there is no drifting in and out of proving himself in relation to his peers... there's only proving that Elam is indeed a talented safety prospect... that you claimed him not to be. And your logic was flawed based on every credible touchpoint that I could find that was not my own. He is indeed a talented 'prospect' whether or not he translates well to the NFL is a different argument... but even on that front, I offered to sig bet you that he would be an impact talent in my original response.

So yes, everything I posted was in direct contrast to you saying he wasn't talented. So I don't need to act like it wasn't. The rest of my post that wasn't Elam related was in response to the nonsensical way in which you have provided your draft grades- that is all.

2. So let me clarify... are you mentioning that you don't believe Ozzie stating Elam is the best prospect ever proves that he and other front office members like Elam and not simply Harbaugh... or are you simply stating that if Ozzie were to say such a thing, it wouldn't convince you that he was, indeed, a viable prospect? Because the latter I would figure to be the case, but the former would indeed be beyond absurd. I'll assume you mean the latter though.

3. But I have never stated the majority opinion to be fact, I've simply stated that if one wants to disprove the majority opinion, the "Burden of Proof" lies with the one making the claim... ie... you.

4. This is an assumption. But FWIW, I listen to many opinions on here regarding prospects all the time. For instance, I initially lowered Cyprien from #1 on my rankings at safety because DTMB listed his concerns of Cyprien's long speed. So I went back to the tape and saw that he MIGHT be a little more limited in the speed department than I had originally thought. And with the top safeties in this class all being so bunched in my estimation, it drove him down. So yes, I listen to the opinions of others... even after I've seemingly made up my mind. Heck, I went back and watched tape on Eric Reid many times because of opinions from other sources that liked him, thinking that perhaps there was something that I missed. And directly after you mentioned Elam's tackling deficiency, I went back and rewatched tape on him. So I definitely would have taken some new found evidence into consideration... on some level at the very least.

5. No, this is incorrect. I've stated since the beginning that I could care less if your opinion differs from mines on Elam or other prospects... because it is your opinion. The three things that I've found to be disagreeable were:
a) Your draft grades follow no logical format, it comes off as 'I don't like him... so this is an F pick'.

b) Your "theory" that the talent evaluators in the front office (Oz, DeCosta, Hortiz) were pressured into taking Elam, not because he was talented and fit a need, but because Harbaugh wanted nice character guys that wouldn't rebel against him.

c) You response to my disproving of the above point, where you state that I haven't actual 'defended Elam'... when in reality, I had indeed done that... As it doesn't matter what you think of Elam as a prospect. The front office took him. And Ozzie was incredibly happy and excited over the pick- even stated that he had some of the most fun he's had watching film over a prospect in years. Yet such a thing, doesn't disprove your above theory that Elam only was selected because of his character? Sure buddy... you can keep believing that all you want, but it's simply not logical.

So yes, all the above points display a lack of logic on your part. These are the three points that I have argued in this thread. Your opinion on Elam I find to be disagreeable on more of a sig bet level... but beyond that I could care less who you like or don't like as a prospect.

6. And again, I CAN accept that your opinion differs from mines. And I can respect someone holding a different opinion. What I don't respect are the above points. Point C especially.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
DreamKid wrote:
I remember Eric or Ozzie saying a WO wasn't taken right before us that we wanted. Not enough though to call it fact, but yea I would've loved Bailey. Still think he is the next Derrick Mason, cool for him though to get to play next to his pal.

That would be Ozzie in the presser immediately after the 7th round ended. IIRC he was asked a question specifically about Bailey and Patton and whether they were poised to take either of them before having them taken just before the Ravens were OTC

I missed this one.

But DeCosta also stated that there was a run on WRs and TEs that we were looking to get in the 3rd round. So if not Bailey, that must be referring to either Keenan Allen, Terrance Williams, or some other WRs that I might be missing. I think Kelce was also probably a guy they were considering in the 3rd as he definitely fits the Ravens stamp of approval.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a completely unrelated note to the current discussion, is anyone else as surprised as me that Kenny Tate is still unsigned?

Thats a massive drop from 2 years ago when he was thought to be one of the best safeties that could potentially declare for the 2011 draft.
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alfalcone


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/05/01/ravens-assistant-gm-eric-decosta-on-the-ravens-draft/
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
1. Wait, what? The front office selected Elam as the first pick in the draft... so how is that selection not proof alone that Elam was indeed the best player on their board at the time of the selection. I further justified this by listing credentials. In terms of defending Elam in relation to his peers... I've already stated that he was #2 on my board and I've stated what he does right and wrong. I've never actually compared Elam to any other safety in this thread outside of mentioning Cyprien to be more consistent... so there is no drifting in and out of proving himself in relation to his peers... there's only proving that Elam is indeed a talented safety prospect... that you claimed him not to be. And your logic was flawed based on every credible touchpoint that I could find that was not my own. He is indeed a talented 'prospect' whether or not he translates well to the NFL is a different argument... but even on that front, I offered to sig bet you that he would be an impact talent in my original response.

So yes, everything I posted was in direct contrast to you saying he wasn't talented. So I don't need to act like it wasn't. The rest of my post that wasn't Elam related was in response to the nonsensical way in which you have provided your draft grades- that is all.

2. So let me clarify... are you mentioning that you don't believe Ozzie stating Elam is the best prospect ever proves that he and other front office members like Elam and not simply Harbaugh... or are you simply stating that if Ozzie were to say such a thing, it wouldn't convince you that he was, indeed, a viable prospect? Because the latter I would figure to be the case, but the former would indeed be beyond absurd. I'll assume you mean the latter though.

3. But I have never stated the majority opinion to be fact, I've simply stated that if one wants to disprove the majority opinion, the "Burden of Proof" lies with the one making the claim... ie... you.

4. This is an assumption. But FWIW, I listen to many opinions on here regarding prospects all the time. For instance, I initially lowered Cyprien from #1 on my rankings at safety because DTMB listed his concerns of Cyprien's long speed. So I went back to the tape and saw that he MIGHT be a little more limited in the speed department than I had originally thought. And with the top safeties in this class all being so bunched in my estimation, it drove him down. So yes, I listen to the opinions of others... even after I've seemingly made up my mind. Heck, I went back and watched tape on Eric Reid many times because of opinions from other sources that liked him, thinking that perhaps there was something that I missed. And directly after you mentioned Elam's tackling deficiency, I went back and rewatched tape on him. So I definitely would have taken some new found evidence into consideration... on some level at the very least.

5. No, this is incorrect. I've stated since the beginning that I could care less if your opinion differs from mines on Elam or other prospects... because it is your opinion. The three things that I've found to be disagreeable were:
a) Your draft grades follow no logical format, it comes off as 'I don't like him... so this is an F pick'.

b) Your "theory" that the talent evaluators in the front office (Oz, DeCosta, Hortiz) were pressured into taking Elam, not because he was talented and fit a need, but because Harbaugh wanted nice character guys that wouldn't rebel against him.

c) You response to my disproving of the above point, where you state that I haven't actual 'defended Elam'... when in reality, I had indeed done that... As it doesn't matter what you think of Elam as a prospect. The front office took him. And Ozzie was incredibly happy and excited over the pick- even stated that he had some of the most fun he's had watching film over a prospect in years. Yet such a thing, doesn't disprove your above theory that Elam only was selected because of his character? Sure buddy... you can keep believing that all you want, but it's simply not logical.

So yes, all the above points display a lack of logic on your part. These are the three points that I have argued in this thread. Your opinion on Elam I find to be disagreeable on more of a sig bet level... but beyond that I could care less who you like or don't like as a prospect.

6. And again, I CAN accept that your opinion differs from mines. And I can respect someone holding a different opinion. What I don't respect are the above points. Point C especially.


1. You're defending him by listing his stats, accolades, and citing the FOs decision to select him as evidence to that fact. I wanted you to defend him from an ability standpoint, to prove to me that it is out of the realm of possibilities that he was greatly pushed up the board due to character rather than ability. And I'm sure he was the highest on the board at the time, I'm talking about pre meditated actions though. You act as if they pushed him up solely because of character they would admit it, of course they're are going to gush about his ability.

2. Both your assumptions are off base, I'm saying just because someone we all admire says one thing it doesn't make it true. Last year RG3 said the Redskins thought he was better than Luck and would've taken him with the 1st pick. Do I buy that of course not, you act as if we need to believe everything that is said. I think with the loss of some LR leaders Harbaugh wanting complete control of the team, spoke with all of our guys about focusing on character players in the draft. Coming off a SB win, no one saw a problem with that and adjusted the board accordingly.

3. Again I'm not looking to disprove the majority opinion, just share my own.

4. Early in the process it is always easier to shift opinions, rather than later. I was initially down on A. Brown but came around, noticing he was the best option in the draft to add at LBer. At this point it is about interpretation of tape, more so than good vs bad.

5.
a) My draft grade follows logic you don't want to accept, not logic you don't understand. I place higher importance on hitting in earlier rounds, and not leaving better players on the board especially if it's at the same position. No I don't like the selections of Simon, Elam, Williams, or Wagner etc, but you saying I just threw Fs at them is trivializing what I did. I'm wasn't and am not high on those players so why would my grades not reflect that. Kyle wasn't my top FB, but I love the pick and felt it hit a need. So I gave the pick a good grade, I understand where you are coming from though. To revisit your Alec O. analagy, yes even though you don't like him of course you would give it a decent grade because it fills a need. That is flawed thinking though because Alec is considered a top prospect, to me the dropoff from players I was high on to Elam is much steeper.

b) Not so much the non rebeling factor, just reconstucting a power core more suited to what he desires as a coach. He came into a unique situation in Baltimore, Ray was one of a kind and Billick is a very different coach than John. After 5 years and a SB win, it isn't odd to think he might want to insert some will in the rebuilding process.

c) Again you don't view it as logical because you disagree, and I'm sure whatever tape the scouts put together for Ozzie was fun to watch. Elam runs around, and bleeds swag every second he's out there. It's also really fun to watch tape on Braxton Miller, it doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying Elam was selected only on character, if he had zero ability he would not be the pick. Character was the primary factor imo though, at a ratio I would say around 80/20. Also level of comp, as well as measurables in that 20.

6. You can say you respect my differing opinion, but you really don't. Respect and acceptance walk hand in hand, and you have yet to accept that my opinion is logical albeit different from your own.
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mcdni


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I give Dreamkid an "F" for this draft grades.

I feel he waited way too long to hand out that much needed A. There were also way too many Fs. We had needs elsewhere and could definitelty have gone with an A- and B- somewhere as well. We also got a C at least 2 rounds too late.
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DreamKid


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcdni wrote:
I give Dreamkid an "F" for this draft grades.

I feel he waited way too long to hand out that much needed A. There were also way too many Fs. We had needs elsewhere and could definitelty have gone with an A- and B- somewhere as well. We also got a C at least 2 rounds too late.
Maybe next time I'll use different colored power rangers to rate picks instead of those pesky letters. That way it will be more aesthetic for all parties, and I'm sure it would prove less controversial. Also that way when you haphazardly decide I graded too harsh, maybe you won't feel the need to voice your enervated critique. Instead get an inner dialogue going about which ranger really wasn't pulling his own weight within the team, that's a task I'm almost sure you can partly take care of.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I think we've reached critical mass.

Let's drop the current draft grade discussion. It's not getting us anywhere and is only likely to lead to this topic deteriorating and/or worse. So let's just move on.
------------------

Now if there are any other draft related news from this past draft, we can continue to discuss it here.

Thanks.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alfalcone wrote:
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/05/01/ravens-assistant-gm-eric-decosta-on-the-ravens-draft/

Yeah, I think this was the podcast that B-Terp was referring to a few pages back.

I read the article but didn't listen to the interview. Did anyone actually listen to it? I wonder if he included some extra tidbits in podcast that wasn't mentioned in this article.

I think one thing that can be sort of inferred from the comment about Elam is that the Terryl Austin connection to Elam must have been a big part of why we favored him over Cyprien. They had each guy rated similarly, so I'm assuming Austin and perhaps Greg Mattison, a former staff member, might have vouched for Elam to really push his value over the top.

Another interesting connection with the staff might be that both Greg Mattison and Terryl Austin coached with Urban Meyer down at Florida. We just selected an Urban Meyer guy in John Simon. I wonder if that connection had anything to do with it- on some level.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
On a completely unrelated note to the current discussion, is anyone else as surprised as me that Kenny Tate is still unsigned?

Thats a massive drop from 2 years ago when he was thought to be one of the best safeties that could potentially declare for the 2011 draft.

I find it interesting, but I can't say it's incredibly surprising.

Obviously I would've thought someone would take a chance on him, but he's had some medical concerns with him in his career at Maryland. Perhaps there was some bad feedback regarding his medical at the combine? Would explain things- sort of.

So along with the fact that Tate is still raw and is a tweener guy, I can see a reason for some hesitation by teams.

But it's still weird that even a bottom feeder isn't willing to take a chance on his 'potential', I guess this goes to show just how deep this draft is, if a talent like Tate can be passed on.
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