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Who would you rather have if we stay at 28?
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Who would you take at #28?
Jamie Collins DE
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Datone Jones DE
23%
 23%  [ 5 ]
Bjoern Werner DE
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Damontre Moore DE
14%
 14%  [ 3 ]
Desmond Trufant CB
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
DJ Hayden CB
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Jamar Taylor CB
9%
 9%  [ 2 ]
Jonathan Banks CB
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Manti Teo LB
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Kevin Minter LB
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Eddie Lacy RB
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Jonathan Franklin RB
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Alec Ogletree LB
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Jesse Williams DT
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Jonathan Hankins DT
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Sylvester Williams DT
14%
 14%  [ 3 ]
Jonathan Cyprien S
4%
 4%  [ 1 ]
Matt Elam S
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Eric Reid S
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 21

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germ-x


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 7817
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bjoern Werner isn't a better player than Datone Jones. Much like Damontre Moore, Werner isn't a very talented player in nearly every area of the game. He isn't very explosive, he isn't great vs the run, and unlike Moore, Werner's motor runs hot and cold.

People are backing and hyping Werner/Moore because the idiot draftnik's had them rated as top 5 picks based off of their college statistics. Once they actually watched them play both have fallen into the late 1st and potentially even 2nd rounds because they have nothing physically, were either products of the system, or their statistics weren't that impressive when actually broken down in Werner's case.

Datone Jones is a superior player to both of them and also provides versatility and Robert Ayers can't provide the same type of versatility that Jones can. Nor can Bjoern Werner or Damontre Moore for that matter.
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AntiSuperstar


Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 4444
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like some things about Werner. He has underrated movement skills, he generally does a great job of moving down the line and not be impacted by contact(much better in space than most people seem to think), has good not great feet, pretty good balance, and changes direction well. He does a great job of getting his hands up and I think he plays with mostly good leverage, and if you combine good leverage with good change of direction ability that's an asset for a pass rusher.

The problem is he doesn't have an amazing burst off the snap(it's not bad, he's quicker than Carradine, but by NFL standards it's nothing great) and he doesn't have great strength. When you're not very big, that's going to create some limitations. If he had a quicker jump off the ball I think he could have James Harrison type ability, but since he doesn't, he's kind of an iffy prospect. It doesn't help that he doesn't always finish plays and seems like his conditioning could improve. But I do think some people are underselling his athleticism just a hair, I've seen him make some moves that many other prospects, probably including Datone Jones, would not be able to replicate.
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Russell2Bailey


Joined: 20 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
Bjoern Werner isn't a better player than Datone Jones. Much like Damontre Moore, Werner isn't a very talented player in nearly every area of the game. He isn't very explosive, he isn't great vs the run, and unlike Moore, Werner's motor runs hot and cold.

People are backing and hyping Werner/Moore because the idiot draftnik's had them rated as top 5 picks based off of their college statistics. Once they actually watched them play both have fallen into the late 1st and potentially even 2nd rounds because they have nothing physically, were either products of the system, or their statistics weren't that impressive when actually broken down in Werner's case.

Datone Jones is a superior player to both of them and also provides versatility and Robert Ayers can't provide the same type of versatility that Jones can. Nor can Bjoern Werner or Damontre Moore for that matter.


Moore and Werner have much better production and better tape than Jones.

They both fell due to workout numbers. Stop kidding yourself. They're not exceptionally physically talented. Great.

I will take good tape and good production against quality competition over Hype, Potential, and Average Physical Skills with decent tape and average production in a weak conference.

I'd maybe agree if we played in a 3-4.

We have Derek Wolfe to do what Datone Jones would do. We don't have a place for 3 base ends on our team who move inside on 3rd down. We need an edge rusher opposite Ayers who's not a complete liability against the run. Werner and Moore are better players for our system AND fit a bigger need.
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AntiSuperstar


Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 4444
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does Robert Ayers have to do with anything? He's an irrelevant non-entity. The thought that his presence on the team should somehow impact our draft picks is just dumb.
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Winder23


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote:
What does Robert Ayers have to do with anything? He's an irrelevant non-entity. The thought that his presence on the team should somehow impact our draft picks is just dumb.
Outside of SLB and QB anything else in the first round is fair game as far as I'm concerned.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 5123
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winder23 wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
What does Robert Ayers have to do with anything? He's an irrelevant non-entity. The thought that his presence on the team should somehow impact our draft picks is just dumb.
Outside of SLB and QB anything else in the first round is fair game as far as I'm concerned.


Couldn't agree more.
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Russell2Bailey


Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 12905
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winder23 wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
What does Robert Ayers have to do with anything? He's an irrelevant non-entity. The thought that his presence on the team should somehow impact our draft picks is just dumb.
Outside of SLB and QB anything else in the first round is fair game as far as I'm concerned.
Logical but picking a CB would go against everything Elway and Fox want in the 1st round.


Just watch his press conference and you would know what I'm talking about.


I'm not saying we draft for need.
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Winder23


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 4256
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell2Bailey wrote:
Winder23 wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
What does Robert Ayers have to do with anything? He's an irrelevant non-entity. The thought that his presence on the team should somehow impact our draft picks is just dumb.
Outside of SLB and QB anything else in the first round is fair game as far as I'm concerned.
Logical but picking a CB would go against everything Elway and Fox want in the 1st round.


Just watch his press conference and you would know what I'm talking about.


I'm not saying we draft for need.
I can promise you that they won't be picking Damontre Moore. That guy is a reported train wreck personally and also allegedly likes to smoke alot of weed. Denver is not a good place to be if he isn't supposed to smoke weed. We got refer madness going on around here. Just sayin!
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Russell2Bailey


Joined: 20 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winder23 wrote:
Russell2Bailey wrote:
Winder23 wrote:
AntiSuperstar wrote:
What does Robert Ayers have to do with anything? He's an irrelevant non-entity. The thought that his presence on the team should somehow impact our draft picks is just dumb.
Outside of SLB and QB anything else in the first round is fair game as far as I'm concerned.
Logical but picking a CB would go against everything Elway and Fox want in the 1st round.


Just watch his press conference and you would know what I'm talking about.


I'm not saying we draft for need.
I can promise you that they won't be picking Damontre Moore. That guy is a reported train wreck personally and also allegedly likes to smoke alot of weed. Denver is not a good place to be if he isn't supposed to smoke weed. We got refer madness going on around here. Just sayin!


I'm not saying you're wrong but where does this come from? Never popped bad on a drug test, never was arrested, seems to work very hard on the field.

I'd rather have Bjoern Werner anyway. Moore is my 2nd choice.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 21854
Location: Conshohocken
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just going to put this here because I don't know where else to put it.

The whole notion that Elway will "only draft guys capable of starting immediately" or "impact players" may have been true the last two drafts, although quite frankly I think it only applied to the 2011 draft which netted us three drafted starters and a UDFA starter, but I don't think it necessarily has to be true going forward.

At some point, maybe right now, our team will have enough good starters on it that someone from a weaker draft class simply will not be good enough to start. Hell, I can guarantee that this FO didn't think Derek Wolfe would turn out anything like he did at first. He wasn't drafted to be a starter. Rather, he was drafted to be like something else Elway mentioned yesterday, a "10-year player for the Broncos."

This draft as a whole is weak, but it's strong and deep in some areas where we could upgrade long-term. CB, DE/DT, and WR are those areas, IMO. Taking a WR for example in the first round isn't a bad thing. Drafts are for the future as much as they are for the present. Next year, there's no guarantee Decker is back. If we let him go, we have a smoother transition with a good WR from this class.

Same with Ayers at DE, Bailey OR DRC at CB. Just because the guy might not start right away doesn't make him a bad pick. And for the record, a CB might not start but should supplant Carter who was bad towards the end last year, and if DRC falters, if there's an injury...well then we have insurance, and if there isn't, we have talent going into next year.

Elway basically said yesterday that this draft lacks high-end star power, but doesn't lack plug-and-play lunchpail guys. That may be more of what we need right now anyway. Besides, all good teams eventually cannot supplant a starter, or it's more difficult to do so, or it happens midseason...you get my drift. We can't expect to net a new starter for the same year in Round 1 of EVERY draft, but if the guy starts 3 of 5 or 4 of 5 years while playing a supporting role while he isn't starting, I'm okay with that too.
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AnAngryAmerican


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Loveland, CO
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncos67 wrote:
I'm just going to put this here because I don't know where else to put it.

The whole notion that Elway will "only draft guys capable of starting immediately" or "impact players" may have been true the last two drafts, although quite frankly I think it only applied to the 2011 draft which netted us three drafted starters and a UDFA starter, but I don't think it necessarily has to be true going forward.

At some point, maybe right now, our team will have enough good starters on it that someone from a weaker draft class simply will not be good enough to start. Hell, I can guarantee that this FO didn't think Derek Wolfe would turn out anything like he did at first. He wasn't drafted to be a starter. Rather, he was drafted to be like something else Elway mentioned yesterday, a "10-year player for the Broncos."

This draft as a whole is weak, but it's strong and deep in some areas where we could upgrade long-term. CB, DE/DT, and WR are those areas, IMO. Taking a WR for example in the first round isn't a bad thing. Drafts are for the future as much as they are for the present. Next year, there's no guarantee Decker is back. If we let him go, we have a smoother transition with a good WR from this class.

Same with Ayers at DE, Bailey OR DRC at CB. Just because the guy might not start right away doesn't make him a bad pick. And for the record, a CB might not start but should supplant Carter who was bad towards the end last year, and if DRC falters, if there's an injury...well then we have insurance, and if there isn't, we have talent going into next year.

Elway basically said yesterday that this draft lacks high-end star power, but doesn't lack plug-and-play lunchpail guys. That may be more of what we need right now anyway. Besides, all good teams eventually cannot supplant a starter, or it's more difficult to do so, or it happens midseason...you get my drift. We can't expect to net a new starter for the same year in Round 1 of EVERY draft, but if the guy starts 3 of 5 or 4 of 5 years while playing a supporting role while he isn't starting, I'm okay with that too.

I agree with every single word of this. Excellently stated, 67.

Elway will draft the best player on the board at #28, unless an opportunity to trade down presents itself. I'm sure that beginning tomorrow evening, Elway will have Russell or Kidd or whomever start working the phones and letting other teams know that we're open to moving down if the price is right and the board falls a certain way.

We're not going to take the best DL on the board, we're going to take the best player on the board and the odds of the best player on the board being a DL aren't great, there looks to be better talent at CB and WR in the late 1st than DL.
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