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Almost better not to draft star players

 
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Almost better not to draft star players Reply with quote

With the Revis trade, I think that kind of hit home. For the money the Bucs are paying him a year, they could well above average CB's based on this years market value. Keenan Lewis, Brent Grimes, and Dominique Rogers-Cromartie combined will be making about the same as Revis will. In todays league where teams spread the ball out, how the hell do you justify paying one CB that kind of coin? Especially when he doesn't get a lot of INT's.

Revis isn't that much better than the #2 CB. Hell, Ike Taylor gets almost the same results Revis will for half the price.

Mike Wallace and Percy [inappropriate/removed] Harvin are currently being paid 13 mil a year. Harvin has never even cracked 1000 yards receiving.

The amount of extra dollars being paid to these guys in no way matches the level of production you get from second tier guys. Antonio Brown is going to cost about 61% of what Wallace will while providing at least 80% of the production if not more, and he can be used as a return guy.

Draft well, you get a few years of a guys prime and then some dumb team throws a horrible contract at him that makes no sense.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Almost better not to draft star players Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
With the Revis trade, I think that kind of hit home. For the money the Bucs are paying him a year, they could well above average CB's based on this years market value. Keenan Lewis, Brent Grimes, and Dominique Rogers-Cromartie combined will be making about the same as Revis will. In todays league where teams spread the ball out, how the hell do you justify paying one CB that kind of coin? Especially when he doesn't get a lot of INT's.

Revis isn't that much better than the #2 CB. Hell, Ike Taylor gets almost the same results Revis will for half the price.

Mike Wallace and Percy [inappropriate/removed] Harvin are currently being paid 13 mil a year. Harvin has never even cracked 1000 yards receiving.

The amount of extra dollars being paid to these guys in no way matches the level of production you get from second tier guys. Antonio Brown is going to cost about 61% of what Wallace will while providing at least 80% of the production if not more, and he can be used as a return guy.

Draft well, you get a few years of a guys prime and then some dumb team throws a horrible contract at him that makes no sense.


You compare Brown to Wallace and that is nota good comparison at all. Look at body of work before you make such horrible comparisons. So why not vent and say Clay Mathews isn't nowhere near productive as the amount of money that he has gotten, Joe Flacco, amongst others. Instead, you go at the guys who were major contributors and deserved the pay raise they received. I'm confused Confused
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Almost better not to draft star players Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
With the Revis trade, I think that kind of hit home. For the money the Bucs are paying him a year, they could well above average CB's based on this years market value. Keenan Lewis, Brent Grimes, and Dominique Rogers-Cromartie combined will be making about the same as Revis will. In todays league where teams spread the ball out, how the hell do you justify paying one CB that kind of coin? Especially when he doesn't get a lot of INT's.

Revis isn't that much better than the #2 CB. Hell, Ike Taylor gets almost the same results Revis will for half the price.

Mike Wallace and Percy [inappropriate/removed] Harvin are currently being paid 13 mil a year. Harvin has never even cracked 1000 yards receiving.

The amount of extra dollars being paid to these guys in no way matches the level of production you get from second tier guys. Antonio Brown is going to cost about 61% of what Wallace will while providing at least 80% of the production if not more, and he can be used as a return guy.

Draft well, you get a few years of a guys prime and then some dumb team throws a horrible contract at him that makes no sense.


Ike Taylor isnt even remotely close to Revis and never has been. Dont make me laugh. If INTs are all that matter to you when judging a CB, thats pretty bad.

Harvin is an all around weapon, not just a receiver. He also played in a run heavy offense with terrible QBs outside of his rookie year. In a read option offense like Seattle's, he could be deadly. May have been overpaid, but look beyond the numbers and look at the facts.

I have to agree with armsteeld, your examples and comparisons are pretty bad.

You absolutely want to draft star players. Its just about being smart and knowing who to pay and who you can live without.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

You compare Brown to Wallace and that is nota good comparison at all


Over the last two seasons Brown has had 93% of the yardage Wallace has had. Point isn't Brown >/= Wallace, but that at 8 mil a year compared to 13 mil Brown is a better use of limited resources. Antonio Brown is not under 2/3's the player Wallace is.

Quote:
So why not vent and say Clay Mathews isn't nowhere near productive as the amount of money that he has gotten,


The contract Matthews received was actually lower than other top end pass rushers have received in recent years. The Packers actually brought the market DOWN for top end pass rushers with what they gave Matthews. Outside Cortland Finnegan, no CB is making within 5 mil of Revis.

What would you rather have: Jonathan Joseph and Keenan Lewis or just Revis? In a year where contracts have been coming down, the Bucs gave away two picks to overpay a CB who most likely comes cheaper on the open market.

Dumb/desperate teams screw up the market for everyone else.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ike Taylor isnt even remotely close to Revis and never has been. Dont make me laugh. If INTs are all that matter to you when judging a CB, thats pretty bad.


Ike Taylor is getting paid 62% of what the Bucs are giving Revis. Taylor has consistently taken the other teams #1 WR out of the game for years. Is he as good as Revis? No. But I would take him for 6 million more in cap space that I could spend on another quality starter to play alongside him.

Quote:
You absolutely want to draft star players. Its just about being smart and knowing who to pay and who you can live without.


The argument isn't literally aim lower in the draft. It's about value and what positions you pay. The Ravens HAD to play Joe Flacco because it's a lot harder to find a QB, especially drafting 32nd...as opposed to a good DB.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:

You compare Brown to Wallace and that is nota good comparison at all


Over the last two seasons Brown has had 93% of the yardage Wallace has had. Point isn't Brown >/= Wallace, but that at 8 mil a year compared to 13 mil Brown is a better use of limited resources. Antonio Brown is not under 2/3's the player Wallace is.

Quote:
So why not vent and say Clay Mathews isn't nowhere near productive as the amount of money that he has gotten,


The contract Matthews received was actually lower than other top end pass rushers have received in recent years. The Packers actually brought the market DOWN for top end pass rushers with what they gave Matthews. Outside Cortland Finnegan, no CB is making within 5 mil of Revis.

What would you rather have: Jonathan Joseph and Keenan Lewis or just Revis? In a year where contracts have been coming down, the Bucs gave away two picks to overpay a CB who most likely comes cheaper on the open market.

Dumb/desperate teams screw up the market for everyone else.


Give a healthy Revis Very Happy
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you could argue that Ike is better than Revis + 1st and his huge contract. Idk, I do agree that teams who overspend in FA usually doesn't work out for them. But man will the Bucs have turned a weakness to a strength with Barron, Gholdson, and Revis.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last year without Revis the Jets allowed an opposing QB rating of 78.2. In the 6 years since Revis has been drafted, they've allowed an average QB rating of 80.2. Not a perfect metric, but maybe...just maybe...you are overvaluing his contributions on the field.

In the 8 games Randy Moss played against Revis, he had 487 yards, 5 TD's and 34 catches. Over a full season that's 10 TD's, 974 yards, and 68 catches.

If you put Revis on an island against Calvin Johnson all day in a pairing of 16 mil dollar a year men, who wins that battle? How many fewer catches/yards/TD's would he have compared to what Johnson would have against a top defense like Pittsburgh facing old Ike Taylor? Part of that is going to the scheme and Lebeau, but again...you are talking about paying one guy 5 mil more.

If I'm paying Revis that much more than his competition, he damn well better make that star WR vanish every god damn week.

Quote:
I do agree that teams who overspend in FA usually doesn't work out for them. But man will the Bucs have turned a weakness to a strength with Barron, Gholdson, and Revis.


And when they need to extend the young players, it will bite them in the [inappropriate/removed] and create other weaknesses. They also weren't exactly a player or two from a championship, unless Freeman does a 360.
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: Almost better not to draft star players Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
With the Revis trade, I think that kind of hit home. For the money the Bucs are paying him a year, they could well above average CB's based on this years market value. Keenan Lewis, Brent Grimes, and Dominique Rogers-Cromartie combined will be making about the same as Revis will. In todays league where teams spread the ball out, how the hell do you justify paying one CB that kind of coin? Especially when he doesn't get a lot of INT's.






Draft well, you get a few years of a guys prime and then some dumb team throws a horrible contract at him that makes no sense.


Revis doesn't get the ints you expect because the rarely even gets thrown his way. He allowed 8 td's in 5 years. If you had 2 corners like that what would you think?

Forget about Wallace, he is gone, who cares. He dropped too many passes.

I agree about what you said above. That is how player makes $ in UFA, not always worth it, but I guess it makes up for playing for less with the team they drafted. Steelers release Harrison, but never complained about his low salary for 2007 and 2008. Wink
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This argument is tough because in today's salary "hell" cap, its harder to retain star players, I'll give you that and when keeping a star on your team, you want him to be at least top 5 player at his position (Lawrence Timmons and Lamarr Woodley for example) and the most importance of draft is to draft plural complimentary players that can provide you a bang for buck.
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1BackInBlackFan


Joined: 29 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Last year without Revis the Jets allowed an opposing QB rating of 78.2. In the 6 years since Revis has been drafted, they've allowed an average QB rating of 80.2. Not a perfect metric, but maybe...just maybe...you are overvaluing his contributions on the field.

In the 8 games Randy Moss played against Revis, he had 487 yards, 5 TD's and 34 catches. Over a full season that's 10 TD's, 974 yards, and 68 catches.

If you put Revis on an island against Calvin Johnson all day in a pairing of 16 mil dollar a year men, who wins that battle? How many fewer catches/yards/TD's would he have compared to what Johnson would have against a top defense like Pittsburgh facing old Ike Taylor? Part of that is going to the scheme and Lebeau, but again...you are talking about paying one guy 5 mil more.

If I'm paying Revis that much more than his competition, he damn well better make that star WR vanish every god damn week.

Quote:
I do agree that teams who overspend in FA usually doesn't work out for them. But man will the Bucs have turned a weakness to a strength with Barron, Gholdson, and Revis.


And when they need to extend the young players, it will bite them in the [inappropriate/removed] and create other weaknesses. They also weren't exactly a player or two from a championship, unless Freeman does a 360.


That statistc shows that opposing QBs are targeting the Jets other CBs instead to even get that rating. If you are going to bring up QBR when comparing the value of Revis show his own individual numbers which are outstanding. The past three healthy seasons opposing quarterbacks have a terrible QBR of 44.6 against him.

The Bucs pass defense was abysmal last season. I can't fault them for going out and getting the best CB in the game even if the salary is high. He just better honor that contract and not demand to renegotiate like he seems to do every year. I think it's a good trade for each side. Revis worn out his welcome in NY and they got good compensation back for him and Tampa Bay's secondary which was a weakness is now a strength.
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Last edited by 1BackInBlackFan on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:
Ike Taylor isnt even remotely close to Revis and never has been. Dont make me laugh. If INTs are all that matter to you when judging a CB, thats pretty bad.


Ike Taylor is getting paid 62% of what the Bucs are giving Revis. Taylor has consistently taken the other teams #1 WR out of the game for years. Is he as good as Revis? No. But I would take him for 6 million more in cap space that I could spend on another quality starter to play alongside him.

Quote:
You absolutely want to draft star players. Its just about being smart and knowing who to pay and who you can live without.


The argument isn't literally aim lower in the draft. It's about value and what positions you pay. The Ravens HAD to play Joe Flacco because it's a lot harder to find a QB, especially drafting 32nd...as opposed to a good DB.


Taylor is one of the most inconsistent CBs in the league, and has had a much better team around him than Revis.

Taylor is a good player for the Steelers and I wouldnt pay any CB what Revis got, but the reason Taylor makes 61% of what Revis got is because a) Revis is younger, b) has a much more impressive body of work, c) market inflation and certain teams overvaluing the position.

Ike Taylor has his moments, but he has never even come close to Revis' best season.

BUT, I agree wthat Id rather keep Ike over Revis at the price....but mainly because I dont value CB that high.
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