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Redskins hosting former Chargers CB Quentin Jammer
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HTTR21 wrote:
Reason saying that he couldnt play free safety is that the chargers fans I talk too all say hes lost alot of speed. Yes hes better than Madieu Williams, but so is that bag of trash. Anything of Madieu Williams. I'd much rather have him play on the line and in zone so his lack of speed isnt used against him Hes great against run or tackling in general. I say we draft ala Phillip Thomas, David Amerson or Eric Reid then put Quentin Jammer back there. Just my two cents.
I agree, IF the draft pick is ready to start. There is no guarentee our rookie we draft is going to come in and beat out veterans for the job.

All the rest of us are saying is that Jammer at FS is an option. Obviously, we hope it isn't our best option, just like last year no one wanted Madieu Williams at FS, but sadly, he turned out to be our best option there.

I definitely have more faith in Jammer than M Williams.

Also, from what I read, Charger's fans were always upset with Jammer for multiple reasons.

1. He was a top 10 pick who never lived up to being a top 10 pick
2. He never made a lot of interceptions
3. Their Pass D was bad for years and they always blamed Jammer

Now I'd have to say not all of that was his fault. It's not his fault the Chargers overdrafted him in the top 10. It's not entirely his fault that the Chargers pass D was usually in the bottom 1/2 of the league. There are other players on the field besides Jammer.

To me, this points to one of the things many scouts said when Jammer was drafted. Many thought he was a FS prospect (Which he played at Texas) and not a CB. The Chargers mistakenly put Jammer at CB when they drafted him and he never became the player they wanted him to be at CB, because it seems he was playing out of positon.

As far as the Chargers fans claiming Jammer has lost his speed...

Does elite speed matter if he's going to be playing FS?

When he was drafted he ran a 4.42.

Let's say over the last decade that's dropped to a 4.5 to 4.6. That is the same speed as most other free safeties in the NFL and all of the players were are looking at drafting for FS this year. Jammer is also a sound tackler, you need that in your FS. All this adds up as a potential good FS stop gap for us until the player we draft is ready to start.
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Dashing


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather him than Mediu Williams .
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's entertaining a team with what for cap space? And at this late date. What does that say with respect to his market value? The minimum for a 10-11 yr vet isn't cheap. Maybe it means they're not going to draft DBs early? I can see that. They do have greater needs.
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THESKINSFAN21


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
He's entertaining a team with what for cap space? And at this late date. What does that say with respect to his market value? The minimum for a 10-11 yr vet isn't cheap. Maybe it means they're not going to draft DBs early? I can see that. They do have greater needs.

DB is easily our greatest need.....
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Marcus21


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
He's entertaining a team with what for cap space? And at this late date. What does that say with respect to his market value? The minimum for a 10-11 yr vet isn't cheap. Maybe it means they're not going to draft DBs early? I can see that. They do have greater needs.


I dont think bringing Jammer in for a look reflects our intentions in the draft. I think we draft more than one corner and a safety. Lets not forget Wilson is on the last year of his deal and Hall is on a one year cintract. Im sure we will be players in the Corner Market next offseason, but we will need to bring in some young guys to compete for jobs. Crawford showed a lil promise towards the end of the year, but has a ways to go. Who knows what Biggers will do. He sure didnt do muchin Tampa. Minnifield has never played an NFL snap and doesnt appear to be able to stay healthy..........All that being said, I think we go heavy secondary in this draft!!!!!!
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Deadman31


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what its worth, EJ Biggers was a top-20 coverage corner according to ProFootballFocus.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadman31 wrote:
For what its worth, EJ Biggers was a top-20 coverage corner according to ProFootballFocus.
thank you! Someone else besides me finally acknowledges this.

That being said FS is by far this teams greatest need. I wish we weren't in the position to have to draft for need, but sadly we do, at least with our first few picks.

A lot of these other players some posters keep bring up are luxury picks where we have starters and the players they are mentioning wont come in and beat out our starters.

If we draft a FS round 2, they have a great shot at starting day 1.

Markrc99. It's not a late date. FA Players are signed all the way up to September and even throughout the year if they are upgrades over our current players.

Quinten Jammer could be an upgrade over our current CBs and FSs, that's why you consider signing him.
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Marcus21


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadman31 wrote:
For what its worth, EJ Biggers was a top-20 coverage corner according to ProFootballFocus.


Yes and we play zone....If you can believe this Tampa had a worse pass D than we did last year, and they let him walk. That should tell you something!
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus21 wrote: "I dont think bringing Jammer in for a look reflects our intentions in the draft. I think we draft more than one corner and a safety. Lets not forget Wilson is on the last year of his deal and Hall is on a one year contract. I'm sure we will be ... in the [CB] market next offseason, but we will need to bring in some young guys to compete... Crawford showed a lil promise towards the end of the year, but has a ways to go. Who knows what Biggers will do. He sure didnt do much in Tampa. Minnifield has never played an NFL snap and doesn't appear to be able to stay healthy..........All that being said, I think we go heavy secondary in this draft!!!!!!"

I agree with a lot of what you've said & the team may well focus on DBs in this draft. I think it's a mistake but it does appear likely. I can concede that the secondary was the unit that played the worst. But here's the thing, not all units are created equal & everybody here is assuming that because the secondary kept blowing assignments, it must need better talent. Poor scheme & communication as well as mental breakdowns are precisely that. That does NOT mean the players on the field can't compete. What's ironic is that the two players that are in fact liabilities in coverage (Doughty & Fletcher) are the guys most fans want the team to keep. The unit isn't very good, but it's not nearly as important as losing the battle in the trenches up front. Case in point is that video of Quentin Jammer at the top of the thread. He doesn't create that INT, he falls into it.

I could see right away that there was a miscommunication between Manning & his rec'r, so I went back to nfl.com to watch that play in its entirety. Just as Jon Gruden points out, the Chargers blitzed six defenders, overloading that same side. They don't disguise what they were doing & the rec'r to that side has to make that pre-snap read! He has to see that he's the hot read there. That's equivalent to a child in little league continuing to run around the bases after the ball has been fouled out of play. No, I'm sorry but it is. You should never see that garbage at this level, not ever! But the point is, it was the pressure on the QB that helped create the breakdown, not anything Jammer did. Do you remember the game vs the Giants that they lost? At the end the Giants needed a touchdown & a huge play, since there wasn't a lot of time on the clock & they were back in their own end. Yet, Victor Cruz got over the top of the Redskins deep shell at just 12 yds! You can blame the players but who called that coverage? There's no way they should've been in something that tight in that situation!

Defensively, what you want is a formidable four man rush & your base (front seven) able to stop the run! When you don't have that, every defense does the same thing, in one way or another. Which is in fact to commit more bodies to get it done! That's irrefutable! Saying that Orakpo resolves all that proves all the more that they need better players around him. As bad as that Redskin secondary was, they were often crowding the short zone! As already noted, they've brought in E.J. Biggers and about a month ago Chase Minnifield was quoted as saying he's ready right now! Crawford has a year under his belt now. Again, I'm not disagreeing with what the team is apt to do. I'm just saying, don't be surprised if they focus on upgrading their one man pass rush.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus21 wrote:
Deadman31 wrote:
For what its worth, EJ Biggers was a top-20 coverage corner according to ProFootballFocus.


Yes and we play zone....If you can believe this Tampa had a worse pass D than we did last year, and they let him walk. That should tell you something!
It tells you that they were going to trade for Revis, sign Dashon Golston.

Just because he didnt stay in Tampa doesn't make him the leagues worst CB. Teams change players all the time in free agency and I think honesty, Biggers didn't want to return, I think he wanted to play for Raheem again.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D hall and Madieu Williams were/are liabilities in coverage also Markrc99. As to the communication, that's another reason why you need to upgrade the players and get players who will grow totherher and work well together. It's obvious the mix we had did not work and it needs to be changed.

I remember our 2011 pass defense being more in sync and having better communication before Raheem Morris because the coach of the secondary. Of course it's not entirely fair to blame him or even the players we had because we has key injuries upfront to Orakpo and Carriker which set us back in the second game of the year.

Also, we don't have a 1 man pass rush. Maybe you missed my post from another topic where I pointed that out, but in 2011 when the front 7 was healthy (but Jarvis Jenkins) our DL provided a lot of pass rush for a 3 down line and we have Ryan Kerrigan opposite Rak.

You keep overlooking those points. Not one person is claiming we have a one man pass rush, but you Markrc9 . The rest of us know we have several good pass rushers, "IF" our best pass rusher is healthy in the front 7 take attract the offenses attention on every play, attract double teams (and beat them) and to free up other players to go unblocked even because they are so worried about Orakpo.
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Marcus21


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
Marcus21 wrote: "I dont think bringing Jammer in for a look reflects our intentions in the draft. I think we draft more than one corner and a safety. Lets not forget Wilson is on the last year of his deal and Hall is on a one year contract. I'm sure we will be ... in the [CB] market next offseason, but we will need to bring in some young guys to compete... Crawford showed a lil promise towards the end of the year, but has a ways to go. Who knows what Biggers will do. He sure didnt do much in Tampa. Minnifield has never played an NFL snap and doesn't appear to be able to stay healthy..........All that being said, I think we go heavy secondary in this draft!!!!!!"

I agree with a lot of what you've said & the team may well focus on DBs in this draft. I think it's a mistake but it does appear likely. I can concede that the secondary was the unit that played the worst. But here's the thing, not all units are created equal & everybody here is assuming that because the secondary kept blowing assignments, it must need better talent. Poor scheme & communication as well as mental breakdowns are precisely that. That does NOT mean the players on the field can't compete. What's ironic is that the two players that are in fact liabilities in coverage (Doughty & Fletcher) are the guys most fans want the team to keep. The unit isn't very good, but it's not nearly as important as losing the battle in the trenches up front. Case in point is that video of Quentin Jammer at the top of the thread. He doesn't create that INT, he falls into it.

I could see right away that there was a miscommunication between Manning & his rec'r, so I went back to nfl.com to watch that play in its entirety. Just as Jon Gruden points out, the Chargers blitzed six defenders, overloading that same side. They don't disguise what they were doing & the rec'r to that side has to make that pre-snap read! He has to see that he's the hot read there. That's equivalent to a child in little league continuing to run around the bases after the ball has been fouled out of play. No, I'm sorry but it is. You should never see that garbage at this level, not ever! But the point is, it was the pressure on the QB that helped create the breakdown, not anything Jammer did. Do you remember the game vs the Giants that they lost? At the end the Giants needed a touchdown & a huge play, since there wasn't a lot of time on the clock & they were back in their own end. Yet, Victor Cruz got over the top of the Redskins deep shell at just 12 yds! You can blame the players but who called that coverage? There's no way they should've been in something that tight in that situation!

Defensively, what you want is a formidable four man rush & your base (front seven) able to stop the run! When you don't have that, every defense does the same thing, in one way or another. Which is in fact to commit more bodies to get it done! That's irrefutable! Saying that Orakpo resolves all that proves all the more that they need better players around him. As bad as that Redskin secondary was, they were often crowding the short zone! As already noted, they've brought in E.J. Biggers and about a month ago Chase Minnifield was quoted as saying he's ready right now! Crawford has a year under his belt now. Again, I'm not disagreeing with what the team is apt to do. I'm just saying, don't be surprised if they focus on upgrading their one man pass rush.


Im not sure who they would draft at 51 that would upgrade our pass rush. All of the elite 3-4 pass rushing OLBs will be gone in the 1st round. Sure we could bring in some mid round guys to compete for rotation spots on the front 3, but they are not going to beat out Cofeild, Carrkier, Bowen and Jenkins for playing time. They could take Golston or Brace's spot but is that what we need to draft in the 2nd round? I agree if we had a pick in round 1 that had a shot of playing over the guys we have now, I would be all for it. That player is just not going to be there at 51. Orakpo will make the pass rush better.....he will also make Kerrigan better. Kerrigan will have less double teams and chips with Orakpo comming off the other end.
I dont mind the Corners we have now..... The fact is we dont have a FS on our roster. T Jackson is a FS, but he wont be reinstated to the league until August if at all....We must draft a FS that can start.
I personally like Reed Doughty as a SS and his ability to tackle and play run support. He is a huge liability in coverage, but we really didnt have anyone else to put out there. Gomes showed absolutly nothing last year in coverage or run support. Reed shouldnt be asked to play FS because hes not one.
I was never a fan of bringing London back. He was one a my favorite Redskins of all time..I love him as a leader, but his decline in play is hard to ignore. He lead the league last year in missed tackles by a ILB, and was a huge liability in pass coverage. Im hoping some of that was his ankle, and that problem is fixed. Time will tell!!!!
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote: "De' Hall and Madieu Williams were/are liabilities in coverage also Markrc99. ... Not one person is claiming we have a one man pass rush, but you..."

Well, I find myself not all that anxious to make an argument for Hall or Williams. But again, to my eye, Hall gets burned by being over-aggressive at times & Williams just watched guys run past him. Now, discipline & assignment recognition are easily correctable but we're talking about veterans that ought to know better. This is interesting:

Quote:
"To start the year, the Redskins played a lot of zone coverage, managed very little pass rush and got picked apart. During this seven-game win-streak, they've switched to more man coverage and run a few more creative blitzes with stunts and have seen much more success." http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/1/4/3837478/seahawks-vs-redskins-know-your-enemy

You know I can find other material stating the same thing, that the secondary did play better as the season wore on. Then the other point is, given that their 32 sacks was near the league bottom, how many of those did they produce with just a four-man rush? Yeah... I don't know but my guess is not many! I recall the Redskins having to blitz a lot. I may not have said so, but I like Ryan Kerrigan. I totally retract my wording suggesting that they only had one guy. My meaning is what I've said all along, which is that w/o Orakpo, there's a huge drop-off. In the secondary, the team already has three young options that could step up & push Wilson or Hall or at the very least, provide quality depth. A capable safety, a guy with some range who likes to hit stuff? That's like a RB who can exploit open holes, they're dime-a-dozen. You can find that guy on someone's practice squad. There's no reason to jump off a cliff over a player who generally lines up 10-12 yds off the ball. You want better results at the back end? GET MORE WITH LESS UP FRONT!
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "De' Hall and Madieu Williams were/are liabilities in coverage also Markrc99. ... Not one person is claiming we have a one man pass rush, but you..."

Well, I find myself not all that anxious to make an argument for Hall or Williams. But again, to my eye, Hall gets burned by being over-aggressive at times & Williams just watched guys run past him. Now, discipline & assignment recognition are easily correctable but we're talking about veterans that ought to know better. This is interesting:

Quote:
"To start the year, the Redskins played a lot of zone coverage, managed very little pass rush and got picked apart. During this seven-game win-streak, they've switched to more man coverage and run a few more creative blitzes with stunts and have seen much more success." http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/1/4/3837478/seahawks-vs-redskins-know-your-enemy

You know I can find other material stating the same thing, that the secondary did play better as the season wore on. Then the other point is, given that their 32 sacks was near the league bottom, how many of those did they produce with just a four-man rush? Yeah... I don't know but my guess is not many! I recall the Redskins having to blitz a lot. I may not have said so, but I like Ryan Kerrigan. I totally retract my wording suggesting that they only had one guy. My meaning is what I've said all along, which is that w/o Orakpo, there's a huge drop-off. In the secondary, the team already has three young options that could step up & push Wilson or Hall or at the very least, provide quality depth. A capable safety, a guy with some range who likes to hit stuff? That's like a RB who can exploit open holes, they're dime-a-dozen. You can find that guy on someone's practice squad. There's no reason to jump off a cliff over a player who generally lines up 10-12 yds off the ball. You want better results at the back end? GET MORE WITH LESS UP FRONT!
I definitely agree with what you quoted and bolded. That's why I said the adjustments our defensive coaches made after the bye week and what they did with the little talent they had was remarkable after the bye week. Hasslett and Co did a great job after the bye week. What they and the players did on D were key to us winning 7 in a row and winning the division.

I believe with Orakpo back our sack #s should rival that of 2011, not 2012. In 2011 our DL was very disruptive to opposing offenses as were our LBs. we had 41 sacks, tied for 10th in the NFL. Our pass defense was 12th.

All I'm saying is study the 2011 defense if you want to see what our front 7 potential is as far as pressure on the qb (if the front 7 is healthy) not the injured 2012 version which was playing with two back ups (Jackson & Jenkins) and a one footed Fletcher 3/4 of the year.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Deadman31 wrote:
For what its worth, EJ Biggers was a top-20 coverage corner according to ProFootballFocus.
thank you! Someone else besides me finally acknowledges this.

That being said FS is by far this teams greatest need. I wish we weren't in the position to have to draft for need, but sadly we do, at least with our first few picks.

A lot of these other players some posters keep bring up are luxury picks where we have starters and the players they are mentioning wont come in and beat out our starters.

If we draft a FS round 2, they have a great shot at starting day 1.

Markrc99. It's not a late date. FA Players are signed all the way up to September and even throughout the year if they are upgrades over our current players.

Quinten Jammer could be an upgrade over our current CBs and FSs, that's why you consider signing him.


Dude he suckes .
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