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Keth's OLB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, ++)
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 10020
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Keth's LB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
SteelProven wrote:


Corey Lemonier gets off the ball so slow, wow!


it's shocking, isn't it? Like, you know some folks just don't get off the ball that well. He is SO consistently slow off the ball, we're talking like a full half second slow. It's almost as if he falls asleep or something waiting for the count. To me, that makes him undraftable. Shame too, because he is nice and aggressive and has active (if useless) hands. His great workout #s become irrelevant when he is half a second slow off the ball. May as well add 0.5s to his 10-time


And people did not like the Woodley minus the explosiveness comparison I made.


refresh my memory? I don't know if I saw it. Lemonier is Woodley?
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 10020
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Catapano

ok, limited games to watch and it's against middling competition, so there's only so much one can draw from this

1) Reminds me of Chris Long. i.e. he is a white dude of very comparable size with similar jawlines. They're also both hustling beasts with some fairly impressive measurables
2) Good use of hands, extends and locks out OTs.
3) lines up from both sides of LoS, frequently from left. Also lines up in a 4-point stance frequently, whcih is interesting. Lined up as a DE or a DT on both right or left side, but almost always in a 4-point stance. Also lined up as a 3-4 RDE and LDE
4) Heavy bull rush, really locks his arms out and drives with good pad level
5) Seems to push/pull the OT to the inside, working his way outside almost exclusively (only saw 2 games, remember)
6) Good anchor, really good use of hands, good read/react and ball awareness. Comes off blocks relentlessly
7) Both teams I saw against him lined up an extra OT to his side and doubled him with some frequency. It was very apparent who the best player on the field was, he was accounted for EVERY single play, frquently by double teams (and a triple team if you count the FB/H-back who helped out)
8 ) Uses a nice under/over rip with inside arm to get outside linemen, very developed push=pull when lined up as a 3-tech to beat the OG
9) In the rare occasion he was single-blocked, created havoc if the play wasn't designed to immediately go away from him. Almost always got held but rarely got the call.
10) Balance less than ideal, overextends himself sometimes; chop blocks were rather effective against him; other times showed great balance and agility with a pretty wicked inside spin move
11) In the occasions he played 3-4 DE, he looked like a natural, holding off the OT with his inside hand and making a tackle with his outside hand

Weaknesses I saw was that when he gave up his numbers, he got velcroed to the OL. His measurables say "he could play OLB" but I saw very little flexibility or explosion when running the arc. He relies on his hands (whcih isn't necessarily a bad thing). He isn't slow out of his stance, he is quite quick, but he is a hands/strength/leverage pass rusher rather than a speed pass rusher

I keep going back to this dude's hand use. He is violent and quick with his hands. He's pretty beefy now, but if he could put on another 10-15 lbs of muscle, he could definitely make a helluva 5-tech for us.

EDIT after some reading I find that he played the season at 290 and dropped to 275 for the pro day. Might explain the delta in his measurables and his explosiveness on the field. That said, I like him even more as a 5-tech. His arms are apparently as long as Terron Armstead's as well (the Arkansas Pine-Bluff LT sleeper)

What I saw was what I would expect to see of a superior athlete vs. lower competition. It is what i expected to see when I watched Dontari Poe last season. Dominance. I'm not comfortable projecting this dude to be a 3-4 OLB, but I think he definitely has a future as a 5-tech for us.

My biggest concern with this guy is simple. I'm not confident he has the intelligence to understand LeBeau's otherworldly complex defense.

... Confused


edit2 tell me this dude doesn't look a lot like Chris Long

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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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Location: MD/DC/VA depends on the hr!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Keth's LB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:


You can feel however you want about Jones, but this is why I cant take your assessment of him too seriously.

You say that that 81 shut him down much of the game....yet there are only 4 plays during the entire game where he even touches Jarvis Jones, and 2 of them were in garbage time.


*smiles*

ok 43. So change "much of the game" to "multiple times during the game". Better?

my wording wasn't as concise as it should've been, but the bottom line is that he was blocked by a TE successfully on multiple occasions. it wasn't a 1-time thing, and it wasn't just that single game. That was my point.

Coming into the season, my 4 favorite guys were Jarvis Jones, Damontre Moore, Bjoern Werner and Brandon Jenkins. I had to eat some bigtime crow on 3 of them and the 4th got injured.

it seems that a few folks are under the impression I only watched 1 or 2 games. I watched

Auburn
Nebraska
Alabama
South Cakalake
Florida
Vandy
Misso
and because my wife's a graduate, Boise State from the year last


I think he'll be a beast as a 4-3 WLB. Good instincts and flows to the ball really well when he's unblocked. He'd do a pretty good job as a 3-4 WILB possibly as well. If we draft him to play 3-4 OLB, he'll be Lawrence Timmons. People keep mentioning Jones' "production" vs superior competition. That was always my thing too, but when you watch the games over and over again, consecutively, it becomes very apparent how heavily scheme plays in getting him his stats. That entire defensive line is going to be drafted in the first 3 rounds, and it was fairly apparent to me how heavily the scheme was based around freeing him up. I do like him as a player because he is rather relentless and quite aggressive, and he seems instinctive as well. He just was far too easily blocked when he didn't win immediately off the snap running a deep arc.

as it stands, I've only seen 4 guys I feel comfortable projecting as successful 3-4 OLB guys for us, and 1 of them is injured (Quanterus Smith)

1. Jamie Collins
2. Trevardo Williams
3. Quanterus Smith
4. Sio Moore (?)

I do wonder if Sio Moore couldn't make it happen. He would be a helluva strength/leverage guy, and he has explosiveness to spare so he could possibly go Deebo and really muscle himself up. He has good flexibility as well from what I saw and was aggressive. I'd have to consider drafting him just because he projects ideally as a 3-4 SILB for us as well.
I get the impression you are over analyzing Jarvis Jenkins but not on these other 4 prospects.

How many games have you watched of the 4 you like?
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jcm412


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 3460
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got one for Damontre Moore?
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2219
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not just lack of athleticism for Jarvis Jones. You have to look at those:

Upside
Age
Health
Size
Fit the scheme?

More you look torward those things, less Jarvis Jones seem likely to be our pick and I'll say this much; I love him as 2nd round pick but far from the 1st round guy.

When making an investment, you invest in guy who will be among few cornerstones of your team for next 10 years, we spent last few 1st round picks to compliment the cornerstones and that's why I don't see us drafting other "complimentary player". When looking at the upside of Jarvis Jones, its not that big and not only that, by time he'll get some quality playing time he'll be 27, maybe 28. What kind of investment is that.

Of course I'm just guessing at the moment but I'll say its a good guess because following the trend of PT we give rookies, Jarvis would have to unlearn things he learned to fit our scheme. We have two players who is already ahead of him on experience, playbook-learning, and more athletic in both Jason Worilds and Adrian Robinson.

It'll be like us being Vikings, drafting Christian Ponder because he has a starting-quality ability but as far I'm concerned, Jarvis will never be the superstar, even carry down the tradition of dominating LBs.

Look, I get it he's a favorite among some. Heck he's a really good linebacker but for us, Steelers' situation he just isn't a fit. not at 17th pick.
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mosteelers


Joined: 24 Apr 2008
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Location: Washington State
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About 40TFL's and 28 sacks or so say good player. One that can dominate.

Suggs had a lot of he too this or too that too. He was too slow to play in the NFL.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id be willing to lay some money that Jarvis is a first rounder.

Terrell Suggs 2.0 IMO.
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WeTerrell Suggs 2.0?

Suggs was a junior. Jarvis is a 24-years old senior.

Suggs at combine was 6'3" 257 lbs, Jarvis at 6'3" and 243 lbs.

Suggs had no injury concerns, Jarvis does.

Suggs was great at run defending, Jarvis- not so much

I wish some people would stop comparing them both because one, Suggs is a defensive end and Jarvis is an outside linebacker. Two, comparison doesn't match, not even the production. Three, if Jarvis Jones was so great, why is he projected to go #17 IN this weakening draft class where Suggs were in a class of strong D-linemen that goes with players of DT Henderson (retired), Ty Warren, and Calvin Pace, among others.

Looking at this draft class, I don't want Jarvis Jones at 17th pick at all but everybody is entitled to their own opinions.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 10020
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: Keth's LB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
kethnaab wrote:



1. Jamie Collins
2. Trevardo Williams
3. Quanterus Smith
4. Sio Moore (?)

I get the impression you are over analyzing Jarvis Jenkins but not on these other 4 prospects.

How many games have you watched of the 4 you like?


6 games of Sio Moore and Trevardo Williams
2 or 3 of Quanterus Smith, but watching him beat both DJ FLuker and Cyrus Kouandjio 1v1, multiple times, and force mutliple double teams was all I needed to figure he's worth a late-round draft pick on him
4 Jamie Collins games this season when he played what amounts to a LEO/bandit type position

there's a ton of tape out there on Jarvis Jones. That's why it's easy to determine that I think he'll be a great 4-3 WLB and a not-so-good 3-4 OLB for us. He is bad against the run. Nobody denies that. If he didn't generate the vast majority of his sacks based on scheme, I'd be more open to him in the 1st.

jcm412 wrote:
Got one for Damontre Moore?


stiff as a board. I posted a 'mini-review' of both him and Bjoern Werner, neither of whom I feel are even close to being worthwhile as a 3-4 OLB. Moore is too upright, I think he'll be fine as a 4-3 DE though, as I think he'll do best with another 10 lbs or so. Good length, decent hands, really uses his arm length. When he gets his hands up first and initiates contact, he is able to lock out OTs and get around them. I'd draft him before Jarvis Jones

mosteelers wrote:
About 40TFL's and 28 sacks or so say good player. One that can dominate.

Suggs had a lot of he too this or too that too. He was too slow to play in the NFL.


Alec Ogletree
John Jenkins
Kwame Geathers
Cornelius Washington
Baccari Rambo

all will go top 3-4 rounds this season.

Who did Suggs play with that even made the NFL? Adam Archuleta?

Suggs was dominant against the run. Jones is pitiful. Suggs didn't have a full handful of NFL-capable players schemed to get him openings. He had to beat OL on his own, something that people really seem to underrate as a skill.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
Id be willing to lay some money that Jarvis is a first rounder.


I'd be right there beside you betting that he's a first rounder. Hopefully he's gone early and we won't need to worry about it.
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at23steelers


Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 3721
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just for you Kethy I hope our draft goes:

1. LB Jones
2. DE Hunt
3. NT Geathers
4. RB Michaels
5. QB Landry Jones
6. CB Steve Williams
6. WR Jasper Collins
7. Best Punter
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 10020
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

at23steelers wrote:
just for you Kethy I hope our draft goes:

1. LB Jones
2. DE Hunt
3. NT Geathers

4. RB Michaels
5. QB Landry Jones
6. CB Steve Williams
6. WR Jasper Collins
7. Best Punter


*stab*
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By just looking at that mock of at23steelers, made me feel like he's a ravens fan making a mock for steelers lol
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at23steelers


Joined: 05 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
By just looking at that mock of at23steelers, made me feel like he's a ravens fan making a mock for steelers lol


RAVENS BABY!!!! Well, until I got stabbed!! *dying*
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Gatoradus


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Location: Virginia Beach, VA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol you always have been a good sport, at23steelers. No disrespect here, I like you.

If people like jarvis jones, that's fine. Only a good fit I see is 2nd round for jarvis- as our inside linebacker, possibly olb during nickel situation.

I bet everybody is really anxious about this Thursday. It shall be a definitive one as everybody from the class of 2008 is gone and next year we will terminate more contracts so it will be a very decisive one, something steelers wouldn't take lightly.
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