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Keth's OLB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, ++)
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here we go

click on the picture, watch #8 in the upper right hand side (Jamie Collins)


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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corey Lemonier

1) Almost always the last guy off the snap far too often. Frequently, he loses the 1v1 almost immediately off the snap. Horribly slow off the snap.
2) Erased from existence by Luke Joeckel (that happens)
3) Rushes only as RDE, uses bullrush and rip almost exclusively, inside spin sometimes. Rarely moved around LoS.
4) Extends arms, uses length, tries to dip and rip outside with left not too often inside with right. Dip lacks much in the way of "dip" and his speed rush outside while running the arc is lost due to his horrible movement off the snap
5) Doesn't show a lot of explosion deep in the arc or flexibility
6) On rare occasions he stunts inside, he does a nice job and shows explosion
7) Drops into coverage on occasion, looks reasonably ok at it
Cool Is ok at avoiding cut blocks

I don't get why this guy is mentioned as anything other than a late rounder. Aggressive, high effort player. Good measurables, crappy football player. Might be useful if he wasn't so painfully slow off the snap.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: Keth's LB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:

3) Block him with a WR, FB and/or a TE - Auburn did this constantly (#81 shut him down much of the game - EDIT 81 is a SO TE for Auburn)


You can feel however you want about Jones, but this is why I cant take your assessment of him too seriously.

You say that that 81 shut him down much of the game....yet there are only 4 plays during the entire game where he even touches Jarvis Jones, and 2 of them were in garbage time.

9:14 1st quarter: 81 got on him but Jones never really tried to disengage from the block. He was watching the QB in case he ran to his side, the QB tucked the ball and ran to the other side.

5:50 1st quarter: Chip blocks Jones as he goes into his route.

12:36 4th quarter: Georgia up 38-0 and on the Aurburn 1 yard line. Got some push against Jones but it was a goal line formation with a run up the gut, trying to avoid the safety for some stupid reason.

9:12 4th quarter: Kept Jones out of the play, but again...38-0. At this point, the entire Georgia defense was phoning it in.

I may have missed a play or two, so feel free to point out if and where I did.

51 was the other Auburn player that blocked him a good bit and held Jones pretty much every time.

Its also worth mentioning that Jones was spying on Jon Wallace a good bit and dropped into coverage alot as well vs Auburn.

Couple notes....

Arrow I'm sorry, buit I flat out laugh at anyone who says Jones isnt explosive. i dont care what his off field workouts says.

Arrow Jones covers alot of a field very quickly. I like his potential in coverage and his sideline to sideline ability.

Arrow I do admit he goes unblocked a fair bit, but nothing too alarming.

Arrow The one thing that DOES concern me about Jones is that he seems to be fooled easily my misdirection and sometimes takes poor angle to the ball carrier, and thats what gets him in trouble in the running game. Correctable issue, though.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: Keth's LB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
kethnaab wrote:

3) Block him with a WR, FB and/or a TE - Auburn did this constantly (#81 shut him down much of the game - EDIT 81 is a SO TE for Auburn)


You can feel however you want about Jones, but this is why I cant take your assessment of him too seriously.

You say that that 81 shut him down much of the game....yet there are only 4 plays during the entire game where he even touches Jarvis Jones, and 2 of them were in garbage time.

9:14 1st quarter: 81 got on him but Jones never really tried to disengage from the block. He was watching the QB in case he ran to his side, the QB tucked the ball and ran to the other side.

5:50 1st quarter: Chip blocks Jones as he goes into his route.

12:36 4th quarter: Georgia up 38-0 and on the Aurburn 1 yard line. Got some push against Jones but it was a goal line formation with a run up the gut, trying to avoid the safety for some stupid reason.

9:12 4th quarter: Kept Jones out of the play, but again...38-0. At this point, the entire Georgia defense was phoning it in.

I may have missed a play or two, so feel free to point out if and where I did.

51 was the other Auburn player that blocked him a good bit and held Jones pretty much every time.

Its also worth mentioning that Jones was spying on Jon Wallace a good bit and dropped into coverage alot as well vs Auburn.

Couple notes....

Arrow I'm sorry, buit I flat out laugh at anyone who says Jones isnt explosive. i dont care what his off field workouts says.

Arrow Jones covers alot of a field very quickly. I like his potential in coverage and his sideline to sideline ability.

Arrow I do admit he goes unblocked a fair bit, but nothing too alarming.

Arrow The one thing that DOES concern me about Jones is that he seems to be fooled easily my misdirection and sometimes takes poor angle to the ball carrier, and thats what gets him in trouble in the running game. Correctable issue, though.



I'm luke warm on Jarvis Jones because his workout numbers project him to fail as a player.

But I applaud you 43M I like this assessment I went back and rewatched that game too.

Jones spent a lot of time spying the edge because Georgia new that Wallace had 1-2 reads. If they were covered he had the option to run the ball.


Corey Lemonier gets off the ball so slow, wow!
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Ward4HOF


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keth--nice analysis as always. Not that you are taking requests, here, but I'd love to get your thoughts on Malliciah Goodman as compared to these other 270ish DEs. I really liked what I saw of him OTHER than that he is incredibly slow off the snap at times, but for some reason, he's still able to get to the QB for a pressure/sack. I'm not nearly as skilled at looking at the more specific points you address and would love to here your take on him. I really like him for us in the 5th/6th range.
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stillersenat


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good breakdown keth. Suggestions for future breakdowns of LBs: More emphasis on explosiveness-this is something that can't be coached-try Kirwan's Twitch Factor.

Show the difference between coachable and not coachable aspects of a LB-this is more for the lurkers but I feel it's important to show what is natural ability and what is something they can work on (*disclaimer this does not presuppose there are any issues from the neck up).
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steelers43


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GREAT READ Keth!!!!! I am back and forth on Jones also, I really like what 43 had to say and I have heard that from others as well.Maybe I am putting to much into the workout, as Mayock says 'put the tape in" and that is what counts. May be a mute point though as I have read the Saints really like him. I like the read on Moore and Collins and I really like both of them.

Keth, can you do ILB also? Minter and Reddick are a couple I would like to know more about.

I know one thing, which a few in here would disagree with... I hate all the WR at 17 and I would be pissed if we took one there.

Thanks for the Write ups and putting in your time Keth!! Very Happy
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I like all of the guys you mentioned. Jarvis Jones included. I heard people make the same comments about Von Miller a few years ago. He fell for a whole in most mock drafts at one point. I was thinking for sure he'd be there for the redskins at 10. Then all of a sudden he was the #2 pick and he's been amazing.


except Miller was incredibly explosive and much better against the run. He didn't have free rushes schemed for constantly.

turtle28 wrote:
Reid is one of my favorite players in the draft.

Minter is solid, he very well could be the steelers 2nd round pick.


i've been a fan of Minter for awhile, although I like Bostic and Alonso about as much. Reid, I must admit, I've slept on for much of the season.


Just finished watching through several FSU games. Bjoern Werner is an interesting character. A white edge rusher with a pretty pedestrian motor. Tank Carradine looks interesting in mid rounds but people are talking about him as a 1st rounder and that one I just don't get at all.

See, this is what happens when you have surgery right before the draft. you burn out your DV-R. Very Happy


Going to rewatch Texas A&M (Damontre Moore), Texas (Okafor), southern Miss (Collins) and Connecticut (Sio Moore and Trevardo Williams)
As far as Jones goes, I agree with 43's assessment from what I watched of a jones last year. You are also taking a small sample size when he played against the read option offense.

You do understand what the read option tackles do right?

They don't block the OLBs or DEs. It freezes the pass rushers because they are stunned they aren't blocked, then the offense can run up the middle if the end goes up the field, if the end crashes down the qb keeps for a possible big gainer in the hole that the DE just avoided and it totally freezes them on the pass rush because they aren't sure who has the ball because of the pass fake the qb executes. This is the reason the redskins offense was very successful for RG3 last year, and a big reason why Russell Wilson and Kapernick were so successful and why having Chip Kelly and Michael Vick together scares the bejesus out of me.

This was a horrible game to do scouting on for Jarvis Jones and a very small sample size.

With Eric Reid, it sickens me how some of these prospects who scouts project to be top 15 picks before the beginning of the year get torn apart by them During the year and before the draft. Eric Reid is a good example, he's a damn good football player, most talented safety in the draft. Everyone knew he was supposed to be the next great thing so he was over analyzed. Sure he wasn't perfect but I really think he's deserving of a first round pick.

I can say the same thing about the qbs in this years draft. Smith, Barkely, Tyler Wilson, Landry Jones, Tyler Bray, Nassib, Emanuel. These players have seriously been crapped on by scouts without many good reasons IMHO. I don't know if they are going to turn out to be great qbs or not, and they aren't on the level of Rg3 l, Luck and Wilson but how many qb classes are on that level? One a decade. That's a once in a generation type draft class. I think those qbs will turn out to be better than what scouts project them to be right now. I see 4 or 5 starters there eventually.
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armsteeld


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I like all of the guys you mentioned. Jarvis Jones included. I heard people make the same comments about Von Miller a few years ago. He fell for a whole in most mock drafts at one point. I was thinking for sure he'd be there for the redskins at 10. Then all of a sudden he was the #2 pick and he's been amazing.


except Miller was incredibly explosive and much better against the run. He didn't have free rushes schemed for constantly.

turtle28 wrote:
Reid is one of my favorite players in the draft.

Minter is solid, he very well could be the steelers 2nd round pick.


i've been a fan of Minter for awhile, although I like Bostic and Alonso about as much. Reid, I must admit, I've slept on for much of the season.


Just finished watching through several FSU games. Bjoern Werner is an interesting character. A white edge rusher with a pretty pedestrian motor. Tank Carradine looks interesting in mid rounds but people are talking about him as a 1st rounder and that one I just don't get at all.

See, this is what happens when you have surgery right before the draft. you burn out your DV-R. Very Happy


Going to rewatch Texas A&M (Damontre Moore), Texas (Okafor), southern Miss (Collins) and Connecticut (Sio Moore and Trevardo Williams)
As far as Jones goes, I agree with 43's assessment from what I watched of a jones last year. You are also taking a small sample size when he played against the read option offense.

You do understand what the read option tackles do right?

They don't block the OLBs or DEs. It freezes the pass rushers because they are stunned they aren't blocked, then the offense can run up the middle if the end goes up the field, if the end crashes down the qb keeps for a possible big gainer in the hole that the DE just avoided and it totally freezes them on the pass rush because they aren't sure who has the ball because of the pass fake the qb executes. This is the reason the redskins offense was very succusgulm for RG3 last year, and a big reason why Russell Wilson and Kapernick were so successful and why having Chip Kelly and Michael Vick together scares the bejesus out of me.

This was a horrible game to do scouting on for Jarvis Jones and a very small sample size.

With Eric Reid, it sickens me how some of these prospects who scouts project to be top 15 picks before the beginning of the year get torn apart by them During the year and before the draft. Eric Reid is a good example, he's a damn good football player, most talented safety in the draft. Everyone knew he was supposed to be the next great thing so he was over analyzed. Sure he wasn't perfect but I really think he's deserving of a first round pick.

I can say the same thing about the qbs in this years draft. Smith, Barkely, Tyler Wilson, Landry Jones, Tyler Bray, Nassib, Emanuel. These players have seriously been crapped on by scouts without many good reasons IMHO. I don't know if they are going to turn out to be great qbs or not, and they aren't on the level of Rg3 l, Luck and Wilson but how many qb classes are on that level? One a decade. That's a once in a generation type draft class. I think those qbs will turn out to be better than what scouts project them to be right now. I see 4 or 5 starters there eventually.


Based off collegiate career, Eric Reid is my favorite Safety, bar none. I also agree with your and other's observation/analysis of Jones against the read option. Nice catch.
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mosteelers


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going with 43. I watch a lot of SEC football, just because it is awesome. I think Jones is going to be a great player in the 3-4 scheme. I think that if he is there at our pick there should be no other.

I would rather trade down and get Collins + picks but who doesn't.

If you look at a season or two of play, then that is how you get a true analysis of a player. There are times I look at one game and get turned off, Ta'Amu, but that isn't a true evaluation. (My main problem is the one game on Ta'Amu was a against bad Div 1 AA guards and he sucked.)

Jones was a good player for the better part of 2 years in a great conference and therefore against presumably better competition than many others, including Collins.
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rollins


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So keth after doing your analysis how would you rank the OLBs for THE STEELERS??? Im curious to see what your rankings look like
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KJtheWicked


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Keth, in fact, I was telling Keth along the same lines when I did the scouting for FFMD1. I was excited to scout Jones, and came away very unimpressed. I was far more impressed with Mingo.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Keth's LB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:


You can feel however you want about Jones, but this is why I cant take your assessment of him too seriously.

You say that that 81 shut him down much of the game....yet there are only 4 plays during the entire game where he even touches Jarvis Jones, and 2 of them were in garbage time.


*smiles*

ok 43. So change "much of the game" to "multiple times during the game". Better?

my wording wasn't as concise as it should've been, but the bottom line is that he was blocked by a TE successfully on multiple occasions. it wasn't a 1-time thing, and it wasn't just that single game. That was my point.

Coming into the season, my 4 favorite guys were Jarvis Jones, Damontre Moore, Bjoern Werner and Brandon Jenkins. I had to eat some bigtime crow on 3 of them and the 4th got injured.

it seems that a few folks are under the impression I only watched 1 or 2 games. I watched

Auburn
Nebraska
Alabama
South Cakalake
Florida
Vandy
Misso
and because my wife's a graduate, Boise State from the year last


I think he'll be a beast as a 4-3 WLB. Good instincts and flows to the ball really well when he's unblocked. He'd do a pretty good job as a 3-4 WILB possibly as well. If we draft him to play 3-4 OLB, he'll be Lawrence Timmons. People keep mentioning Jones' "production" vs superior competition. That was always my thing too, but when you watch the games over and over again, consecutively, it becomes very apparent how heavily scheme plays in getting him his stats. That entire defensive line is going to be drafted in the first 3 rounds, and it was fairly apparent to me how heavily the scheme was based around freeing him up. I do like him as a player because he is rather relentless and quite aggressive, and he seems instinctive as well. He just was far too easily blocked when he didn't win immediately off the snap running a deep arc.

as it stands, I've only seen 4 guys I feel comfortable projecting as successful 3-4 OLB guys for us, and 1 of them is injured (Quanterus Smith)

1. Jamie Collins
2. Trevardo Williams
3. Quanterus Smith
4. Sio Moore (?)

I do wonder if Sio Moore couldn't make it happen. He would be a helluva strength/leverage guy, and he has explosiveness to spare so he could possibly go Deebo and really muscle himself up. He has good flexibility as well from what I saw and was aggressive. I'd have to consider drafting him just because he projects ideally as a 3-4 SILB for us as well.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Keth's LB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:


Corey Lemonier gets off the ball so slow, wow!


it's shocking, isn't it? Like, you know some folks just don't get off the ball that well. He is SO consistently slow off the ball, we're talking like a full half second slow. It's almost as if he falls asleep or something waiting for the count. To me, that makes him undraftable. Shame too, because he is nice and aggressive and has active (if useless) hands. His great workout #s become irrelevant when he is half a second slow off the ball. May as well add 0.5s to his 10-time
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Keth's LB eval (Jones, Mingo, Moore, Trevardo, Collins, Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
SteelProven wrote:


Corey Lemonier gets off the ball so slow, wow!


it's shocking, isn't it? Like, you know some folks just don't get off the ball that well. He is SO consistently slow off the ball, we're talking like a full half second slow. It's almost as if he falls asleep or something waiting for the count. To me, that makes him undraftable. Shame too, because he is nice and aggressive and has active (if useless) hands. His great workout #s become irrelevant when he is half a second slow off the ball. May as well add 0.5s to his 10-time


And people did not like the Woodley minus the explosiveness comparison I made.
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