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Why I wouldn’t hesitate to draft Austin or Patterson at 15.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Why I wouldn’t hesitate to draft Austin or Patterson at 15. Reply with quote

First… I understand the defensive needs of this team and I get that I am likely in the minority on this when it comes to Saints fans.

1. Best available player at 15
I hear it all the time, “take the BPA with your 1st round pick!” Well, that very well may be the case when we go on the clock at 15. Forget how any of us may have prospects like Jarvis Jones or Kenny Vaccaro rated, the fact is that in an offensive passing league within a team that lives and dies by the pass and is built around one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL. Superior offensive skill playmakers will ALWAYS hold greater value to teams like the Saints. This is why prospects like Austin and Patterson could very well find themselves atop the Saints draft board regardless of the defensive deficiencies.

2. Wide Receiver is a position of need
I’m a firm believer that you fill your needs in free agency and build for the future in the draft, especially in the 1st round. The simple fact is that the receiver position of a team that relies so much on its passing attack is in need of an influx of youth and playmaking ability. Marcus Colston, Lance Moore, Darren Sproles & Pierre Thomas are all a major part of what the Saints do offensively through the air and each one of those guys are soon to be on the wrong side of 30 with hefty contracts and diminishing skill sets.

I understand that the Saints are high on young players at the positions like Joe Morgan, Nick Toon and Tavares Cadet but I see them as more of adequate replacements and future role players on this offense and not exactly the playmakers this team will eventually need. Toon possesses the size, route running and sure hands to one day take over for Marcus Colston when the day comes that his chronic knee injuries and age force him out of New Orleans. Morgan is the ideal slot guy with speed who can replace Lance Moore when his contract becomes a luxury this team will no longer be able to afford. Even Cadet has the receiving ability out of the backfield that could eventually replace what they will lose with father time finally closes the door on both Thomas and Sproles in the big easy. Still, outside of Jimmy Graham this offense will not possess a dynamic playmaker and Jimmy won’t be able to do it alone. Adding a prospect like Austin or Patterson would give this team the dimension it lacks at the position and ensure the future of the Saints offense as one of the most productive and explosive the NFL has to offer.

3. Saints recent history drafting 1st round defensive talent
Sure it’s easy to say, “Hey, WE NEED DEFENSE!” Guess what… we been saying that for years now. Since 2006, Mickey Loomis and Sean Payton have owned 7 1st round draft picks. 4 of which were used on defensive players. Sedrick Ellis, Malcolm Jenkins, Patrick Robinson and Cam Jordan. Out of these 4 players, only Jordan has really established himself as a potential hit in the drafts top round for the Saints while Ellis has been a bust, Jenkins is well on his way to that label and the jury remains open on the inconsistent Robinson. When the Saints elected to go offense in the top round, they always picked a skill player. Reggie Bush, Robert Meachem and Mark Ingram were the choices. Bush and Meachem never lived up to the hype that came along with them but both were still productive players for the Saints that helped the leagues #1 offense win a Superbowl in 2009. Like Robinson, the jury is still out on Ingram but it’s still safe to say that his future looks safe in New Orleans and will be a major part of the offense moving forward.

The fact is that when Sean Payton is your head coach, you’re never going to build a dominate defense but on the flip side you won’t ever need one as long as Payton provides himself with the tools to continue to keep his offensive unit atop the NFL standings.

In closing…
Guys, I’m not on here lobbing for the Saints to draft a receiver in the 1st round. All I’m saying is that “IF” that does turn out to be the selection… I completely understand why!


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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly, our scouting (and coaching) has been better on the offensive side of the ball..but that does not mean that you quit trying to build a defense. We don't have a single play maker on defense. We have a few good players (Cam Jordan and Curtis Lofton), and a few players with potential to be good (Hicks and Wilson). But we don't have a single guy that defenses have to account for on defense. It is extremely difficult to find those types of players through free agency, and certainly when Brees consumes a quarter of our cap space. It has to be done through the draft. The key is just finding the right guy and not the wrong guy. The 49ers find the right guy, the Packers find the right guy...it is our turn now.

BTW...Stallworth, Henderson, and Meachem. Those are our last three first day WRs. Colston, Moore, and Morgan were all practically not drafted. This franchise has found discovered and developed elite talent out of the later rounds...so why get a WR in the first who could easily fit into the category of Stallworth, Henderson, and Meachem?

I feel much better about our WR corp this year than last. Morgan improved significantly over the course of the season and the guy has the ability to be the next Mike Wallace. Nick Toon will be back and has a ton of potential. With Graham and Watson the Saints don't need an unbelievable #4 WR behind Colston, Moore, and Morgan. The Saints will continue to churn out productive guys in the later rounds...so a 1st rounder at WR is a bust unless it is a guy like Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald out there. There isn't.
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sammymvpknight wrote:
BTW...Stallworth, Henderson, and Meachem. Those are our last three first day WRs. Colston, Moore, and Morgan were all practically not drafted. This franchise has found discovered and developed elite talent out of the later rounds...so why get a WR in the first who could easily fit into the category of Stallworth, Henderson, and Meachem?


This is part of the reason I don't think the Saints need to spend anything above a 4th round pick on WRs unless it is a can't miss Randy Moss/Calvin Johnson type of prospect.
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thesolution


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That goes to show the stability the Saints have on offense. How many defensive coaches have SP had since he's been here? To his and Loomis credit, they have tried. They also have drafted a lot of defensive talent that just haven't work out. Just like the Saints have hit on lower rounds with offense, the Seahawks have hit on defense. My thing is, when you draft guys, you gotta let them play.
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was actually a big GW fan. Clearly his bounty system (whether it was a bounty or not) hurt the team and he deserved to get fired. But the guy made the most of his talent. I am disappointed that Jenkins and Ellis didn't pan out but I am not sure that it was his fault. It was clearly an administrative decision to move Jenkins to safety. I thought it was a good switch...the Saints FO thought it was a good switch...but it just comes to show that good football IQ and ball skills at CB does not mean the same at safety. The angles are different and that is what killed Jenkins. Ellis, unfortunately hit is peak in college. You would have thought that he would continue to improve...but he didn't. I don't think it was horrible scouting or coaching...Ellis just is what he is...JAG.

I see Ryan as a simlar coach. Spags was brutal at half time adjustments...GW was incredible at it. Ryan comes from the same mold. I think that Ryan will put the players in roles to thrive.

But with that said...the talent has to get better on defense. We need an intimidator out there. Just one elite defensive player will make the entire defense look better.
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krewebrees


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not for or against drafting a WR in round 1. Honestly I'd wait and get Kenny Stills in the 4th or 5th. Clearly Austin is more talented, but i don't feel that he is that (3-4 rounds) much better.

We haven't had much succes with offensive players in the first, but we haven't had that much success with defensive players either. We haven't had a guy come in a be an amazing impact since Loomis took over. Yes Smith was good, but didn't fully start until his third season, and Jordan, although he did good (not great) last year, only had one sack his rookie season.

My point is our first round selections over all haven't been that great, offense and defense. Why not take some chances, we have to get it right some time. For all those whosay we need a defender that opposing teams fear and haveto game plan for. Did we have that when we won the superbowl in 09. The only person i can see a arguement for is Darren Sharper. We got it done on offense. Why not make it even better. Yes we got alot of turnovers, but we aren't going to draft an amazing FS in this draft I think IAQ is our best option there.

So again would I personally draft a WR in round 1, no, but I can see the logic if we did.
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krewebrees wrote:
I'm not for or against drafting a WR in round 1. Honestly I'd wait and get Kenny Stills in the 4th or 5th. Clearly Austin is more talented, but i don't feel that he is that (3-4 rounds) much better.

We haven't had much succes with offensive players in the first, but we haven't had that much success with defensive players either. We haven't had a guy come in a be an amazing impact since Loomis took over. Yes Smith was good, but didn't fully start until his third season, and Jordan, although he did good (not great) last year, only had one sack his rookie season.

My point is our first round selections over all haven't been that great, offense and defense. Why not take some chances, we have to get it right some time. For all those whosay we need a defender that opposing teams fear and haveto game plan for. Did we have that when we won the superbowl in 09. The only person i can see a arguement for is Darren Sharper. We got it done on offense. Why not make it even better. Yes we got alot of turnovers, but we aren't going to draft an amazing FS in this draft I think IAQ is our best option there.

So again would I personally draft a WR in round 1, no, but I can see the logic if we did.


Bingo. We don't have a guy on our roster who forces turnovers anymore. We need that type of player...certainly if we are going to be a below average defense.
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FLOODx


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NO to a WR at 15.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Bingo. We don't have a guy on our roster who forces turnovers anymore. We need that type of player...certainly if we are going to be a below average defense.


The point I'm getting at here is that while the defensive need is paramount no doubt... we cannot get caught up in drafting a defensive player just for the sake of doing so. If ANY of the offensive players on the board have a much higher grade on the Saints board at the time of the 15th pick then they will and should pull the trigger on him.

Yes, we need a defensive playmaker... everyone knows this but that does not mean that just because we need one that one will be available at 15 or that the Saints will feel the defensive players on the board grade higher than the offensive players.

I understand this and have come to the point where I (as a Saints fan) am prepared for anything on draft day. This is truly the one draft for as long as I can remember that I have no idea which way the Saints may go in round one but am open to anything.
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:

Bingo. We don't have a guy on our roster who forces turnovers anymore. We need that type of player...certainly if we are going to be a below average defense.


The point I'm getting at here is that while the defensive need is paramount no doubt... we cannot get caught up in drafting a defensive player just for the sake of doing so. If ANY of the offensive players on the board have a much higher grade on the Saints board at the time of the 15th pick then they will and should pull the trigger on him.

Yes, we need a defensive playmaker... everyone knows this but that does not mean that just because we need one that one will be available at 15 or that the Saints will feel the defensive players on the board grade higher than the offensive players.

I understand this and have come to the point where I (as a Saints fan) am prepared for anything on draft day. This is truly the one draft for as long as I can remember that I have no idea which way the Saints may go in round one but am open to anything.


There is no way that Patterson or Austin are rated significantly higher than the best available defensive players and OTs. We aren't talking about Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald here. Just my opinion.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sammymvpknight wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:

Bingo. We don't have a guy on our roster who forces turnovers anymore. We need that type of player...certainly if we are going to be a below average defense.


The point I'm getting at here is that while the defensive need is paramount no doubt... we cannot get caught up in drafting a defensive player just for the sake of doing so. If ANY of the offensive players on the board have a much higher grade on the Saints board at the time of the 15th pick then they will and should pull the trigger on him.

Yes, we need a defensive playmaker... everyone knows this but that does not mean that just because we need one that one will be available at 15 or that the Saints will feel the defensive players on the board grade higher than the offensive players.

I understand this and have come to the point where I (as a Saints fan) am prepared for anything on draft day. This is truly the one draft for as long as I can remember that I have no idea which way the Saints may go in round one but am open to anything.


There is no way that Patterson or Austin are rated significantly higher than the best available defensive players and OTs. We aren't talking about Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald here. Just my opinion.


I love how people seem to think just because you draft a player at a position say like WR it has to be a Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. 1st, Fitz and Johnson were top 5 picks... the Saints are picking 15th so that argument holds ZERO merit because if the Saints had a top 5 pick then Patterson wouldn't even be in the conversation. We'd then be talking Joeckel, Fisher, Milliner and Jordan. That's not the case though... were at 15 and the talent level available at that position is not what it is in the top 5 and Patterson's talent does compare or exceed that of other prospects in that range.

Also you have to take into account the overall talent level of the draft and understand that not all drafts deliver the same amount and level of talent on a year in year out basis. For example, RG3 went 2nd last year but how many drafts in the last 10 years would he have gone 1st? Does that mean the Colts messed up... NO, it just means that the talent level of the 2012 draft at the top was unique. What is Larry Fitz, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson and Randy Moss were all coming out in the same draft? Only one could go #1... but does that mean any of the others did not possess the talent to warrant that pick? NO, it simply means they were in a stacked draft.

Looking at the 15th pick, you have to take into account that this draft is full of good players but not elite ones. The truly elite players will be gone be gone by the 15th pick so the Saints will be selecting between a group of good players that they will take their skill set, future potential and need for the position in to account with their evaluating process and then take the best player that offers not only instant success but long-trerm success as well.

All im saying is that based on how we have drafted since Loomis and Payton have become a team is that in a group of good players, their happens to be potentially two skill offensive players at a position of need (however small) with elite playmaking ability. it would be absurd to think that those two player would not be in serious consideration for the pick.

That's all i'm saying...
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can justify it all you want, I'll throw a brick through my TV if we draft a WR at 15. Drew Brees can make Lance Moore and Joe Morgan look like studs, theirs no reason to spend the #15 pick on a WR. I agree with going BPA but obviously theirs exceptions, if Geno Smith fell to 15 theirs no way we'd take him, I feel WR is the same. The only offensive position I can see us going with in the first round is OT.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
You can justify it all you want, I'll throw a brick through my TV if we draft a WR at 15. Drew Brees can make Lance Moore and Joe Morgan look like studs, theirs no reason to spend the #15 pick on a WR. I agree with going BPA but obviously theirs exceptions, if Geno Smith fell to 15 theirs no way we'd take him, I feel WR is the same. The only offensive position I can see us going with in the first round is OT.


I disagree with you about WR...

Colston: Chronic knees, no deep speed, fumbling issues.
Moore: High priced slot guy.
Henderson: Gone.
Morgan: Decent but not what everyone seems to think he is.
Toon: Big, physical with promise but not a playmaker and always had injury issues.
Roby: Proven to be nothing more than a return/specialty player.

Not to mention that Colston, Moore & Roby are either 30 or about to be and Colston and Moore have hefty escalating contracts on a cap strapped team heading into the future.

Anyone looking at this unit thinking were set or that its not a need clearly has blinders on. Now, should we invest a 1st round pick this tear to address the area... likely not but all im saying is that if Austin or Patterson are available and the grade fits the pick and one of them are selected, I might not agree or it wouldn't have been my choice but I understand the reason.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The WRs in this class aren't even anything special. I'd much rather take a guy in the 4th or 5th and groom him then spend a 1st on a luxury pick. Colston is a guy who can play well until around 33-34, his entire game is predicated on his strength, size and hands; those don't go away. Moore is a very good slot WR and Morgan has all the elements to be a good deep option this year.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't draft Tavon Austin in the first round period. Just don't think he's an impact player in the NFL honestly.
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