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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
A team with as many defensive needs as us can't afford to keep 4 HBs, especially when Ivory can just walk next year, which he easily would if handed a starting job.


He could walk next year... he could also end up having a monster year this season for us. THe simple fact is you don't give away good players out of desperation and Ivory is a good player and trading him for anything less than what the Saints deem his value is giving him away.
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krewebrees


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
A team with as many defensive needs as us can't afford to keep 4 HBs, especially when Ivory can just walk next year, which he easily would if handed a starting job.


He could walk next year... he could also end up having a monster year this season for us. THe simple fact is you don't give away good players out of desperation and Ivory is a good player and trading him for anything less than what the Saints deem his value is giving him away.


I agree with Worm here. No RBs in our system are going to produce big numbers. Sproles is the only one that even outs up decent number and most of that is receiving. The point is just because he doesn't have amazing stats doesn't mean he isn't good.

In my option he is the best running back we have. If we had 4 QBs y'all wouldn't want us trading Drew would y'all. I understand that's an exaggeration. But just because we have a lot of RBs doesn't mean we can "give one away".

If I was Loomis and someone offered me a 4th round for him I would laugh. He is way more talented than that, not even considering this isn't a great RB class. I think the top 2 Lacy and Ball are 2nd rounders and Ivory is as good if not better.

I really hope if the jets are trying to trade for him and not just sign him at his 2nd round tender we don't take it.i would consider their 3rd, but even then I'm not sure.
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krewebrees wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
A team with as many defensive needs as us can't afford to keep 4 HBs, especially when Ivory can just walk next year, which he easily would if handed a starting job.


He could walk next year... he could also end up having a monster year this season for us. THe simple fact is you don't give away good players out of desperation and Ivory is a good player and trading him for anything less than what the Saints deem his value is giving him away.


I agree with Worm here. No RBs in our system are going to produce big numbers. Sproles is the only one that even outs up decent number and most of that is receiving. The point is just because he doesn't have amazing stats doesn't mean he isn't good.

In my option he is the best running back we have. If we had 4 QBs y'all wouldn't want us trading Drew would y'all. I understand that's an exaggeration. But just because we have a lot of RBs doesn't mean we can "give one away".

If I was Loomis and someone offered me a 4th round for him I would laugh. He is way more talented than that, not even considering this isn't a great RB class. I think the top 2 Lacy and Ball are 2nd rounders and Ivory is as good if not better.

I really hope if the jets are trying to trade for him and not just sign him at his 2nd round tender we don't take it.i would consider their 3rd, but even then I'm not sure.


I'm glad you and Worm aren't GMs then. If we don't get something for him now, we won't get anything for him later when he walks because he WILL NOT stay in NO with his current role as a Free Agent. There is no chance of NY signing him and giving up a 2nd. No team would be that dumb when you look at his position on the depth chart. All they have to do is say "no" to the 2nd, and if we don't unload him we get nothing for him. Or we could take a deal for a 3rd or 4th, more along the lines of what he is actually worth and secure a mid round pick in a defensive heavy draft. We have to capitalize while there is still value for him.
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Lombardi Gras


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krewebrees wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
A team with as many defensive needs as us can't afford to keep 4 HBs, especially when Ivory can just walk next year, which he easily would if handed a starting job.


He could walk next year... he could also end up having a monster year this season for us. THe simple fact is you don't give away good players out of desperation and Ivory is a good player and trading him for anything less than what the Saints deem his value is giving him away.


I agree with Worm here. No RBs in our system are going to produce big numbers. Sproles is the only one that even outs up decent number and most of that is receiving. The point is just because he doesn't have amazing stats doesn't mean he isn't good.

In my option he is the best running back we have. If we had 4 QBs y'all wouldn't want us trading Drew would y'all. I understand that's an exaggeration. But just because we have a lot of RBs doesn't mean we can "give one away".

If I was Loomis and someone offered me a 4th round for him I would laugh. He is way more talented than that, not even considering this isn't a great RB class. I think the top 2 Lacy and Ball are 2nd rounders and Ivory is as good if not better.

I really hope if the jets are trying to trade for him and not just sign him at his 2nd round tender we don't take it.i would consider their 3rd, but even then I'm not sure.


I would take a 4th for Ivory in a second. He is a good runner, an average blocker (at best), and a poor out of the backfield receiver. With an injury history, and a short shelf life for running backs of his mold. I like Ivory, but it would still be the right business move.
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lombardi Gras wrote:
krewebrees wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
A team with as many defensive needs as us can't afford to keep 4 HBs, especially when Ivory can just walk next year, which he easily would if handed a starting job.


He could walk next year... he could also end up having a monster year this season for us. THe simple fact is you don't give away good players out of desperation and Ivory is a good player and trading him for anything less than what the Saints deem his value is giving him away.


I agree with Worm here. No RBs in our system are going to produce big numbers. Sproles is the only one that even outs up decent number and most of that is receiving. The point is just because he doesn't have amazing stats doesn't mean he isn't good.

In my option he is the best running back we have. If we had 4 QBs y'all wouldn't want us trading Drew would y'all. I understand that's an exaggeration. But just because we have a lot of RBs doesn't mean we can "give one away".

If I was Loomis and someone offered me a 4th round for him I would laugh. He is way more talented than that, not even considering this isn't a great RB class. I think the top 2 Lacy and Ball are 2nd rounders and Ivory is as good if not better.

I really hope if the jets are trying to trade for him and not just sign him at his 2nd round tender we don't take it.i would consider their 3rd, but even then I'm not sure.


I would take a 4th for Ivory in a second. He is a good runner, an average blocker (at best), and a poor out of the backfield receiver. With an injury history, and a short shelf life for running backs of his mold. I like Ivory, but it would still be the right business move.


Perfectly put. RBs with injury red flags and poor receiving skills are not worth more than a mid round pick. A 3rd at best, but a 4th easily for Ivory.
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krewebrees


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
krewebrees wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
A team with as many defensive needs as us can't afford to keep 4 HBs, especially when Ivory can just walk next year, which he easily would if handed a starting job.


He could walk next year... he could also end up having a monster year this season for us. THe simple fact is you don't give away good players out of desperation and Ivory is a good player and trading him for anything less than what the Saints deem his value is giving him away.


I agree with Worm here. No RBs in our system are going to produce big numbers. Sproles is the only one that even outs up decent number and most of that is receiving. The point is just because he doesn't have amazing stats doesn't mean he isn't good.

In my option he is the best running back we have. If we had 4 QBs y'all wouldn't want us trading Drew would y'all. I understand that's an exaggeration. But just because we have a lot of RBs doesn't mean we can "give one away".

If I was Loomis and someone offered me a 4th round for him I would laugh. He is way more talented than that, not even considering this isn't a great RB class. I think the top 2 Lacy and Ball are 2nd rounders and Ivory is as good if not better.

I really hope if the jets are trying to trade for him and not just sign him at his 2nd round tender we don't take it.i would consider their 3rd, but even then I'm not sure.


I'm glad you and Worm aren't GMs then. If we don't get something for him now, we won't get anything for him later when he walks because he WILL NOT stay in NO with his current role as a Free Agent. There is no chance of NY signing him and giving up a 2nd. No team would be that dumb when you look at his position on the depth chart. All they have to do is say "no" to the 2nd, and if we don't unload him we get nothing for him. Or we could take a deal for a 3rd or 4th, more along the lines of what he is actually worth and secure a mid round pick in a defensive heavy draft. We have to capitalize while there is still value for him.


1. The fact that he is fourth on the depth chart makes no sense to me. He is the best back we have and should be one. Hopefully in Payton's time off he realized this and fixes it if he stays.

2. I agree if we keep him another year, he will walk at the end of next year, unless we actually make him the starter like he should be. I feel Thomas should leave, and we give his playing time to Ivory. If he sees that we would make him the starter he may choose to come back for a long term contract.

3. I don't get this whole injury prone label. Every RB gets hurt in his career. It's the most physically demanding role in the game. Yes he missed a few games at the end of his first and third seasons, just a few. His second he missed a bit. The reason he wasn't suited out at the start of last season was because Kroomer didn't want that many active backs and Ivory just happened to be last on the depth chart. Which I feel was a big mistake, because once Vitt finally played him he gave us a run game and even Ingram started running better. Yes he has been hurt every season, but only averaging 4 games a season and I don't seem him continuing to get hurt like that, especially if we make him the starter and he knows he will actually play. Some of those questionable a will become probables.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
krewebrees wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
A team with as many defensive needs as us can't afford to keep 4 HBs, especially when Ivory can just walk next year, which he easily would if handed a starting job.


He could walk next year... he could also end up having a monster year this season for us. THe simple fact is you don't give away good players out of desperation and Ivory is a good player and trading him for anything less than what the Saints deem his value is giving him away.


I agree with Worm here. No RBs in our system are going to produce big numbers. Sproles is the only one that even outs up decent number and most of that is receiving. The point is just because he doesn't have amazing stats doesn't mean he isn't good.

In my option he is the best running back we have. If we had 4 QBs y'all wouldn't want us trading Drew would y'all. I understand that's an exaggeration. But just because we have a lot of RBs doesn't mean we can "give one away".

If I was Loomis and someone offered me a 4th round for him I would laugh. He is way more talented than that, not even considering this isn't a great RB class. I think the top 2 Lacy and Ball are 2nd rounders and Ivory is as good if not better.

I really hope if the jets are trying to trade for him and not just sign him at his 2nd round tender we don't take it.i would consider their 3rd, but even then I'm not sure.


I'm glad you and Worm aren't GMs then. If we don't get something for him now, we won't get anything for him later when he walks because he WILL NOT stay in NO with his current role as a Free Agent. There is no chance of NY signing him and giving up a 2nd. No team would be that dumb when you look at his position on the depth chart. All they have to do is say "no" to the 2nd, and if we don't unload him we get nothing for him. Or we could take a deal for a 3rd or 4th, more along the lines of what he is actually worth and secure a mid round pick in a defensive heavy draft. We have to capitalize while there is still value for him.


Well, on the flip side Im glad your not the GM because in my opinion having Ivory on the roster in 2013 is worth more than a 5th or 6th round pick. You obviously have written off any chance that Ivory can stay... WHos say that after yet another year that it won't be time to part with Thomas or even Sproles? THen youd be wishing you had Ivory still.

Why can't Ivory compete and maybe beat out Ingram and it's Mark that's traded next offseason?

YOur just content to trade the guy for whatever you can get because like many others you seem to think this defense can be rebuilt in one offseason with mediocre draft selections.

The depth and production alone that Ivory would provide for the Saints in 2013 is wother more than a 5th rounder.
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krewebrees wrote:
He is the best back we have and should be one. Hopefully in Payton's time off he realized this and fixes it if he stays.


That could not be further from the truth. He is the best power/downhill runner we have, yes. Best overall RB, hell no. I will take Pierre Thomas over Ivory EVERY DAY. Shiftier, breaks more tackles, quicker, better blocker, better catching out of the backfield, and in the screen game (which we utilize a lot) he is a Top 5 screen RB in the NFL. Plus he doesn't have the injury concerns that Ivory has.

Ivory does one thing great, run downhill. Thomas does everything very good. Give me Thomas over the one trick pony.

And don't get me wrong, I love Ivory, but he is due a starting opportunity and that just isn't with this team due to his one dimensional nature.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you guys are nuts. Pierre Thomas is twice the HB Chris Ivory is. Ivory is a great runner but he can't block and he's not a great receiving option. Some of you guys expect gold for every player on our team. If the Jets offered an early 4th for Ivory I would absolutely jump all over it.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I love Ivory, but he is due a starting opportunity and that just isn't with this team due to his one dimensional nature


So that's how you would justify just giving him away... because if you trade him for anything less than a 4th round pick that's exactly what you'd be doing.
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
navysaintsfan wrote:
krewebrees wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
A team with as many defensive needs as us can't afford to keep 4 HBs, especially when Ivory can just walk next year, which he easily would if handed a starting job.


He could walk next year... he could also end up having a monster year this season for us. THe simple fact is you don't give away good players out of desperation and Ivory is a good player and trading him for anything less than what the Saints deem his value is giving him away.


I agree with Worm here. No RBs in our system are going to produce big numbers. Sproles is the only one that even outs up decent number and most of that is receiving. The point is just because he doesn't have amazing stats doesn't mean he isn't good.

In my option he is the best running back we have. If we had 4 QBs y'all wouldn't want us trading Drew would y'all. I understand that's an exaggeration. But just because we have a lot of RBs doesn't mean we can "give one away".

If I was Loomis and someone offered me a 4th round for him I would laugh. He is way more talented than that, not even considering this isn't a great RB class. I think the top 2 Lacy and Ball are 2nd rounders and Ivory is as good if not better.

I really hope if the jets are trying to trade for him and not just sign him at his 2nd round tender we don't take it.i would consider their 3rd, but even then I'm not sure.


I'm glad you and Worm aren't GMs then. If we don't get something for him now, we won't get anything for him later when he walks because he WILL NOT stay in NO with his current role as a Free Agent. There is no chance of NY signing him and giving up a 2nd. No team would be that dumb when you look at his position on the depth chart. All they have to do is say "no" to the 2nd, and if we don't unload him we get nothing for him. Or we could take a deal for a 3rd or 4th, more along the lines of what he is actually worth and secure a mid round pick in a defensive heavy draft. We have to capitalize while there is still value for him.


Well, on the flip side Im glad your not the GM because in my opinion having Ivory on the roster in 2013 is worth more than a 5th or 6th round pick. You obviously have written off any chance that Ivory can stay... WHos say that after yet another year that it won't be time to part with Thomas or even Sproles? THen youd be wishing you had Ivory still.

Why can't Ivory compete and maybe beat out Ingram and it's Mark that's traded next offseason?

YOur just content to trade the guy for whatever you can get because like many others you seem to think this defense can be rebuilt in one offseason with mediocre draft selections.

The depth and production alone that Ivory would provide for the Saints in 2013 is wother more than a 5th rounder.


I would not really consider trading him for a 5th. I specifically said a 3rd-4th round pick. I think 5th is too low, and my main point was that looking for a 2nd is way too high and we might as well let him walk. I don't think even after a very good season here that he would resign for a long term deal with us because he still will never get the playtime he wants. We all know that. It's not Payton's playstyle. I say if we can get a 3rd or 4th, likely a 4th, pull the trigger.

And no, I never said we can rebuild our defense with "mediocre" draft selection. But this is a defensive heavy draft, we are likely to have a better chance of landing a mid-round gem with more picks to find them.

Now...it's time for Dr. Who. Mrs. NSF and NSFbaby both say hi.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:
I love Ivory, but he is due a starting opportunity and that just isn't with this team due to his one dimensional nature


So that's how you would justify just giving him away... because if you trade him for anything less than a 4th round pick that's exactly what you'd be doing.

No one said to take less than a 4th? You're losing it worm Laughing
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navysaintsfan


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:
I love Ivory, but he is due a starting opportunity and that just isn't with this team due to his one dimensional nature


So that's how you would justify just giving him away... because if you trade him for anything less than a 4th round pick that's exactly what you'd be doing.


Because no great player in history has ever been drafted in the 4th round Laughing A 4th would most certainly not be "giving" him away.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Yeah, you guys are nuts. Pierre Thomas is twice the HB Chris Ivory is. Ivory is a great runner but he can't block and he's not a great receiving option. Some of you guys expect gold for every player on our team. If the Jets offered an early 4th for Ivory I would absolutely jump all over it.


A factor to consider also is if the Saints kept Ivory, at the end of the 2013 season a major part of the decision between who to keep between Ivory and Thomas would come down to contract numbers and age. Thomas would be 29 years old (latter part for an NFL back) while Ivory would be only 25 and cheaper most likely.

Plus... Is Mark Ingram a bust or not? If that question cannot be answered with an absolute NO then you don't trade Ivory for nothing less than a 2nd. If Ingram isn't a bust then you let him walk for a 4th.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navysaintsfan wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:
I love Ivory, but he is due a starting opportunity and that just isn't with this team due to his one dimensional nature


So that's how you would justify just giving him away... because if you trade him for anything less than a 4th round pick that's exactly what you'd be doing.


Because no great player in history has ever been drafted in the 4th round Laughing A 4th would most certainly not be "giving" him away.


READ...

I said anything less than a 4th, that's 5th, 6th or 7th.

For every late round steal there are 20 guys that are out of the league in less than 3 years.
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