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Who do you draft #15?
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Who do you draft #15?
QB EJ Manuel, Florida State
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
QB Matt Barkley, USC
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
WR Keenan Allen, California
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TE Tyler Eifert, Notre Dame
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T DJ Fluker, Alabama
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DT Sheldon Richardson, Missourri
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DT Sylvester Williams, North Carolina
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DE Bjoern Werner, Florida State
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DE Datone Jones, UCLA
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LB Barkevious Mingo, Louisiana State
18%
 18%  [ 3 ]
LB Jarvis Jones, Georgia
75%
 75%  [ 12 ]
LB Alec Ogletree, Georgia
0%
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CB Xavier Rhodes, Florida State
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S Matt Elam, Florida
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
S Eric Reid, Louisiana State
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Another player, post your choice below
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 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 16

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Porter22


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MPjeffryred wrote:
whodatworm23 wrote:
Quote:

I still high on Moore but as a 4-3 DE which is where he played this past year. If we were in a 4-3 I wouldn't mind us taking him one bit and might even have him at the top of my DE list still.


Moore had 71 tackles and 8.5 sacks in 2011 as a 34 OLB as a sophomore which was overlooked due to the player he succeeded in Von Miller. Moore was a playmaker in space in 2011 and remember, in Ryans scheme the OLB's won't be asked to drop into coverage much.

I'm just saying... for all those in love with Jarvis Jones, Demontre Moore should be high on there list as well. If anything, Moore has more versatility than Jones.


In one mock I saw online, the Saints trade with the Jets (who had traded with the 49's to grab Lotulelei) and receive picks 31 and 39 for pick #15. With that pick, the Saints did take Moore @31 and due to way that draft fell, the Saints reached for Kyle Long at #39. It could be worse and I would probably be satisfied. Long should go in the late second or early third, but we have the greatest need at tackle according to Payton. If that did happen, I would target SS J.J. Wilcox in third, DT Kwame Geathers or Bennie Logan in the fourth, QB Matt Scott in round 5 and either CB Tharold Simon (could be a FS candidate and cb depth for now) or TE Lucas Reed in the sixth. I could live with the above.


And that is the main reason why I believe we won't go tackle in the first. I think he likes our tackles and would like to get a project in 4th or 5th round but won't spend one of our first picks on an OT. Only way I could see it happen, is Lane Johnson falling to us at #15!
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Hypnotic


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jarvis Jones all day, Mingo doesnt seem to be as much of a sure thing compared to Jones and his tape doesnt impress me.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnotic wrote:
Jarvis Jones all day, Mingo doesnt seem to be as much of a sure thing compared to Jones and his tape doesnt impress me.


It's basically a decision based on what side of the coin you put your faith in. On one side theirs potential and on the other side production, the answer simply lies in what your prefference is. If your a guy that values production, then jarvis jones and Demontre Moore will likley apeal more to you. If you value potential above all else then Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo are likley more your speed.

What kills me though is when guys come on here and bang on Mingo and praise Jones at the same time they elevate Jordan's status while writing off Moore... whitch is it? If your a huge fan of Jones's production how can you write off Moore's and if your all about the potential of Jordan, how can you bang on Mingo?

I'm not calling anyone out on this but I do find it funny how some people will praise a prospect and bang another, then on the other hand praise another prospect for the same reason thay banged on a previous one and vice versa. Laughing
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not banging Mingo on production. It's WHY he didn't produce. Dion Jordan didn't produce because he often dropped into coverage and is relatively new to DE. Mingo didn't produce because of work ethic, lack of strength and inconsistent technique.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
I'm not banging Mingo on production. It's WHY he didn't produce. Dion Jordan didn't produce because he often dropped into coverage and is relatively new to DE. Mingo didn't produce because of work ethic, lack of strength and inconsistent technique.


That's a whole lota if's and y's... So, Jordad didn't produce because of how he was used. I agree, if your talking about sacks but at the same time all that time in coverage and he ends up with only 1 pass defend and zero INT's his last year at oregon? The same can be said for Mingo... What if Mingo had played in space in a 34 scheme at OLB like Jarvis jones? Would his stats have been any better?

At the same token, what if Martez Wilson played DE or a 34 OLB in space in college and not MLB... wouldn't he have had much better stats in this dept?

At the end of the day its all excuses and you are what you are, and you are what your measurables and production say you are until your not.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't understand most of that, and I get most of you guys are LSU fans but Dion Jordan is just a superior prospect to Mingo. Theirs a reason Jordan is slated in the top 5 by most scouts and Mingo is all over the place.
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krewebrees


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my say in this matter. When it comes to evaluating prospects I look at measurables for later round guys only. Example RBs Goodwin and Micheal. Top round talent I look at mostly film, stats measurables or numbers. Y'all've been talking about these four linebackers Jones Jordan Mingo and Moore.

I haven't done my heavy off season scouting on Moore yet, just watched some of his games live.

Of the other three I like Jones the least. He plays slower and hesitates, but I still like his versatility, and would be happy to get him.

I really like the other two's film. I do thing Mingo is a better pass rusher and Jordan better run stopper/tackler. With them I think it comes down to what we need. Galette is our jack linebacker which is what I think would be Mingo's only position. I see Jordan more of a Sam (SOLB). I would be happy with either one. I think I like Mingo a little better, but its the position that worries me. I would rather start Galette than Hawthorne and getting Mingo would likely mean Galette would sit and Hawthorne would start.

So I would go:
Dion Jordan
Jarvis Jones
Barkevious Mingo
Damontre Moore (TBD)
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of what anyone tells you...the best indicator of the future is what you have done in the past. That applies to ANYTHING under the sun and not just football. If I am trying to find a good doctor to work under me...I don't look at his IQ...I look at the whole picture. Has he been a high achiever in high school? College? Med School? If he has...there is no reason for me to believe that the guy can't get it done. Now if he had the same credentials as a guy with a much higher IQ...of course I am going with the equally qualified smarter guy.

There is lots that goes into sports. It's certainly not just athletic ability. Some of the best athletes that I have known throughout my life were not the best football players. Football is a skill...and each position has its unique skillset.

Sure...production in college does not mean production in the NFL...but it does if the scouting is conducted properly. Instead of looking at the numbers and assuming...you actually had to determine why someone was productive. When you get a guy like Jarvis Jones...you have a guy going up against elite competition and still consistantly looks like the better player on the field. Why? Because despite that elite competition knowing that he is the best player on the field...he still racks up 13 sacks a year in a shortened college season. He has elite pass rushing SKILLS. He didn't get those sacks by accident. It wasn't because he was playing against crap competition or that opposing offenses neglected him. He has elite footwork, closing speed, QBs don't break his tackles, and the dude is a maniac at causing turnovers.

Jordan and Mingo were above average/good college players. They were not special players. Now how you can extrapolate how an average/good college player turns into a great NFL player is beyond me. It doesn't happen very often. It happened with JPP...but that had lots to do with JPP being a baby when it came to maturation in the sport. You can make that argument for Ansah...but no way can you make it for Mingo and Jordan. Both guys did not produce at the college level. If both players could rack up 10+ sacks, do you not think that their coaches would have put them into those positions to thrive? Do college coaches not like a legit pass rush from their defense?

Or how about this...they were put in the roles that their coaches felt they could do well in. Mingo was not as good of a pass rusher than Montgomery in college...so he played on the strong side. He went up against RTs and not LTs...and still struggled to beat his man. He has absolutely no bullrush (quite it with the Aldon Smith comparison)...doesn't have pass rush moves...and just tries to outrun his blocker to the outside for sacks all game...of which he wasn't successful against less athletic college RTs. He is awful against the run and has no experience in pass coverage. He was horrible at angles...do you think that issue is going to resolve with playing in even more space as an OLB? And he often wasn't strong enough to collect the sack when he did get his hands on the QB.

Dion Jordan's strength is his diversity. But where does the guy play at the next level? Is he only a subpackage guy. I have serious concerns about his weight and issues with leverage on the strong side. But by putting him on the weakside you also play against his strengths because at this point he is only an average pass rusher...and WOLB doesn't have many coverage responsbilities. He is an elite athlete but may have trouble finding a true position.

There is no question in my mind that Jarvis Jones should be the #1 OLB taken in the draft. No question at all. Is Jones the perfect prospect? No...but nobody is. Look at the scouting reports of every great pass rusher of all time and you will find negatives. But he is the guy who has proven that he at least has the ability to be elite against his current competition.

I am certainly higher on Jamie Collins than Mingo and have Collins neck and neck with Dion Jordan. Collins and Jones are by are the most complete OLB prospects.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sammymvpknight wrote:
Regardless of what anyone tells you...the best indicator of the future is what you have done in the past. That applies to ANYTHING under the sun and not just football. If I am trying to find a good doctor to work under me...I don't look at his IQ...I look at the whole picture. Has he been a high achiever in high school? College? Med School? If he has...there is no reason for me to believe that the guy can't get it done. Now if he had the same credentials as a guy with a much higher IQ...of course I am going with the equally qualified smarter guy.

There is lots that goes into sports. It's certainly not just athletic ability. Some of the best athletes that I have known throughout my life were not the best football players. Football is a skill...and each position has its unique skillset.

Sure...production in college does not mean production in the NFL...but it does if the scouting is conducted properly. Instead of looking at the numbers and assuming...you actually had to determine why someone was productive. When you get a guy like Jarvis Jones...you have a guy going up against elite competition and still consistantly looks like the better player on the field. Why? Because despite that elite competition knowing that he is the best player on the field...he still racks up 13 sacks a year in a shortened college season. He has elite pass rushing SKILLS. He didn't get those sacks by accident. It wasn't because he was playing against crap competition or that opposing offenses neglected him. He has elite footwork, closing speed, QBs don't break his tackles, and the dude is a maniac at causing turnovers.

Jordan and Mingo were above average/good college players. They were not special players. Now how you can extrapolate how an average/good college player turns into a great NFL player is beyond me. It doesn't happen very often. It happened with JPP...but that had lots to do with JPP being a baby when it came to maturation in the sport. You can make that argument for Ansah...but no way can you make it for Mingo and Jordan. Both guys did not produce at the college level. If both players could rack up 10+ sacks, do you not think that their coaches would have put them into those positions to thrive? Do college coaches not like a legit pass rush from their defense?

Or how about this...they were put in the roles that their coaches felt they could do well in. Mingo was not as good of a pass rusher than Montgomery in college...so he played on the strong side. He went up against RTs and not LTs...and still struggled to beat his man. He has absolutely no bullrush (quite it with the Aldon Smith comparison)...doesn't have pass rush moves...and just tries to outrun his blocker to the outside for sacks all game...of which he wasn't successful against less athletic college RTs. He is awful against the run and has no experience in pass coverage. He was horrible at angles...do you think that issue is going to resolve with playing in even more space as an OLB? And he often wasn't strong enough to collect the sack when he did get his hands on the QB.

Dion Jordan's strength is his diversity. But where does the guy play at the next level? Is he only a subpackage guy. I have serious concerns about his weight and issues with leverage on the strong side. But by putting him on the weakside you also play against his strengths because at this point he is only an average pass rusher...and WOLB doesn't have many coverage responsbilities. He is an elite athlete but may have trouble finding a true position.

There is no question in my mind that Jarvis Jones should be the #1 OLB taken in the draft. No question at all. Is Jones the perfect prospect? No...but nobody is. Look at the scouting reports of every great pass rusher of all time and you will find negatives. But he is the guy who has proven that he at least has the ability to be elite against his current competition.

I am certainly higher on Jamie Collins than Mingo and have Collins neck and neck with Dion Jordan. Collins and Jones are by are the most complete OLB prospects.

Fantastic post and I fully agree. I want JJ at 15.
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jcvoodoo


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only guy I'd feel ecstatic picking at 15 (of the mentioned names) is JJ. If a choice presented itself, say JJ or Dion Jordan, I'd pick JJ with no hesitation.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sammymvpknight wrote:
Regardless of what anyone tells you...the best indicator of the future is what you have done in the past. That applies to ANYTHING under the sun and not just football. If I am trying to find a good doctor to work under me...I don't look at his IQ...I look at the whole picture. Has he been a high achiever in high school? College? Med School? If he has...there is no reason for me to believe that the guy can't get it done. Now if he had the same credentials as a guy with a much higher IQ...of course I am going with the equally qualified smarter guy.

There is lots that goes into sports. It's certainly not just athletic ability. Some of the best athletes that I have known throughout my life were not the best football players. Football is a skill...and each position has its unique skillset.

Sure...production in college does not mean production in the NFL...but it does if the scouting is conducted properly. Instead of looking at the numbers and assuming...you actually had to determine why someone was productive. When you get a guy like Jarvis Jones...you have a guy going up against elite competition and still consistantly looks like the better player on the field. Why? Because despite that elite competition knowing that he is the best player on the field...he still racks up 13 sacks a year in a shortened college season. He has elite pass rushing SKILLS. He didn't get those sacks by accident. It wasn't because he was playing against crap competition or that opposing offenses neglected him. He has elite footwork, closing speed, QBs don't break his tackles, and the dude is a maniac at causing turnovers.

Jordan and Mingo were above average/good college players. They were not special players. Now how you can extrapolate how an average/good college player turns into a great NFL player is beyond me. It doesn't happen very often. It happened with JPP...but that had lots to do with JPP being a baby when it came to maturation in the sport. You can make that argument for Ansah...but no way can you make it for Mingo and Jordan. Both guys did not produce at the college level. If both players could rack up 10+ sacks, do you not think that their coaches would have put them into those positions to thrive? Do college coaches not like a legit pass rush from their defense?

Or how about this...they were put in the roles that their coaches felt they could do well in. Mingo was not as good of a pass rusher than Montgomery in college...so he played on the strong side. He went up against RTs and not LTs...and still struggled to beat his man. He has absolutely no bullrush (quite it with the Aldon Smith comparison)...doesn't have pass rush moves...and just tries to outrun his blocker to the outside for sacks all game...of which he wasn't successful against less athletic college RTs. He is awful against the run and has no experience in pass coverage. He was horrible at angles...do you think that issue is going to resolve with playing in even more space as an OLB? And he often wasn't strong enough to collect the sack when he did get his hands on the QB.

Dion Jordan's strength is his diversity. But where does the guy play at the next level? Is he only a subpackage guy. I have serious concerns about his weight and issues with leverage on the strong side. But by putting him on the weakside you also play against his strengths because at this point he is only an average pass rusher...and WOLB doesn't have many coverage responsbilities. He is an elite athlete but may have trouble finding a true position.

There is no question in my mind that Jarvis Jones should be the #1 OLB taken in the draft. No question at all. Is Jones the perfect prospect? No...but nobody is. Look at the scouting reports of every great pass rusher of all time and you will find negatives. But he is the guy who has proven that he at least has the ability to be elite against his current competition.

I am certainly higher on Jamie Collins than Mingo and have Collins neck and neck with Dion Jordan. Collins and Jones are by are the most complete OLB prospects.


Not knocking your assessment, I agree for the most part but if that is how you evaluate talent and project to the next level... I'm just curious where you have Demontre Moore ranked on your board???
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whodatworm23 wrote:
sammymvpknight wrote:
Regardless of what anyone tells you...the best indicator of the future is what you have done in the past. That applies to ANYTHING under the sun and not just football. If I am trying to find a good doctor to work under me...I don't look at his IQ...I look at the whole picture. Has he been a high achiever in high school? College? Med School? If he has...there is no reason for me to believe that the guy can't get it done. Now if he had the same credentials as a guy with a much higher IQ...of course I am going with the equally qualified smarter guy.

There is lots that goes into sports. It's certainly not just athletic ability. Some of the best athletes that I have known throughout my life were not the best football players. Football is a skill...and each position has its unique skillset.

Sure...production in college does not mean production in the NFL...but it does if the scouting is conducted properly. Instead of looking at the numbers and assuming...you actually had to determine why someone was productive. When you get a guy like Jarvis Jones...you have a guy going up against elite competition and still consistantly looks like the better player on the field. Why? Because despite that elite competition knowing that he is the best player on the field...he still racks up 13 sacks a year in a shortened college season. He has elite pass rushing SKILLS. He didn't get those sacks by accident. It wasn't because he was playing against crap competition or that opposing offenses neglected him. He has elite footwork, closing speed, QBs don't break his tackles, and the dude is a maniac at causing turnovers.

Jordan and Mingo were above average/good college players. They were not special players. Now how you can extrapolate how an average/good college player turns into a great NFL player is beyond me. It doesn't happen very often. It happened with JPP...but that had lots to do with JPP being a baby when it came to maturation in the sport. You can make that argument for Ansah...but no way can you make it for Mingo and Jordan. Both guys did not produce at the college level. If both players could rack up 10+ sacks, do you not think that their coaches would have put them into those positions to thrive? Do college coaches not like a legit pass rush from their defense?

Or how about this...they were put in the roles that their coaches felt they could do well in. Mingo was not as good of a pass rusher than Montgomery in college...so he played on the strong side. He went up against RTs and not LTs...and still struggled to beat his man. He has absolutely no bullrush (quite it with the Aldon Smith comparison)...doesn't have pass rush moves...and just tries to outrun his blocker to the outside for sacks all game...of which he wasn't successful against less athletic college RTs. He is awful against the run and has no experience in pass coverage. He was horrible at angles...do you think that issue is going to resolve with playing in even more space as an OLB? And he often wasn't strong enough to collect the sack when he did get his hands on the QB.

Dion Jordan's strength is his diversity. But where does the guy play at the next level? Is he only a subpackage guy. I have serious concerns about his weight and issues with leverage on the strong side. But by putting him on the weakside you also play against his strengths because at this point he is only an average pass rusher...and WOLB doesn't have many coverage responsbilities. He is an elite athlete but may have trouble finding a true position.

There is no question in my mind that Jarvis Jones should be the #1 OLB taken in the draft. No question at all. Is Jones the perfect prospect? No...but nobody is. Look at the scouting reports of every great pass rusher of all time and you will find negatives. But he is the guy who has proven that he at least has the ability to be elite against his current competition.

I am certainly higher on Jamie Collins than Mingo and have Collins neck and neck with Dion Jordan. Collins and Jones are by are the most complete OLB prospects.


Not knocking your assessment, I agree for the most part but if that is how you evaluate talent and project to the next level... I'm just curious where you have Demontre Moore ranked on your board???


I like DaMonte Moore. I think that he will make a good 4-3 RDE. But I don't see him as an 3-4 OLB at the next level. Like Jarvis Jones...he has limited athleticism...but unlike Jones...he is NOT a special pass rusher. I think that he is actually one of the best run stopping 4-3 RDEs in the draft. But he is more of a hustle guy than a guy with special pass rushing ability. I see Jarvis Jones as a guy who will continue to be a game changer at the next level because he has unbelievable pass rushing skills. It's less than five yards to the QB...so lots of people are going to put too much weight into combine performances. The question is does player have the ability to make the most of the five yards between him and QB. Jarvis Jones does. He has pass rushing moves. He can bullrush (great functional strength), he can go inside and he can go outside. When he gets to the QB...the QB is going down...or losing the football.

Don't get me wrong...if the Saints were running a 4-3...I would be all over Moore. I see him as being very similar to Will Smith coming into the league. Stout against the run and a good pass rusher. But I don't think that he will be a special pass rusher...and that is what the Saints need.
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