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stylish313


Joined: 17 Jan 2009
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Location: Flat Rock, Mi
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFTW wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
LionsGM wrote:
We have One (1), that has proved he can play in the NFL at a high level. The others have not, nor have they shown any signs of being able to be more than marinate in a pool of bottom feeders at this point with an outside shot at becoming a decent special teamer and one that may have a future at Nickelback if he stays healthy and gets a couple more seasons under his belt.

To exclude CB from our list of needs in favor of a players like Chris Greenwood, Jonte Green, or Bill Bentley is irresponsible, borderline cretinus and inexcusable to put it kindly.

I don't necessarily disagree - I think that CB is absolutely a need - but if we're going to disregard Greenwood, Green and Bentley based on what they've shown on the field, shouldn't we also disregard Reiff? Should we enter the draft feeling as if we need 2 OTs, despite the fact that Reiff will almost certainly fill one of those positions?

I don't think it's that easy (both ways). We shouldn't assume that Greenwood, Green and Bentley will solidify the position, but they shouldn't be completely disregarded either. The coaches need to trust their evaluation of those players, in both practice and in games, and determine if an available prospect will likely to be a better option.
Greenwood hasn't seen the field, and Bentley got lit up for the better part of 3 games.

Reiff shined in his only start of the season, against JJ Watt of all people.


Watt had 3 sacks against us. Also 5 hurries (season high) 2 batted balls, and 5 stops.

But he rushes from the Ds left side, so it was Gosder who got used like a dirty rubber. Not Reiff. He got lucky and didn't face up against that beast.
I just watched that game last night, and talked about it in the Anything thread.

Watt rushed from both sides in that game, not sure if he's done that all season long, but Reiff matched up against Watt quite a few times and didn't allow a single pressure from Watt.
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
LionsGM wrote:
To exclude CB from our list of needs in favor of a players like Chris Greenwood, Jonte Green, or Bill Bentley is irresponsible, borderline cretinus and inexcusable to put it kindly.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I never said it wasn't a need
If it's a need, and you have a chance to eliminate that need with stud in the draft who may be BPA when you select, then you do that and continue to develop those other guys behind him and Houston.

Well first, I don't believe there to be a stud CB in this draft. We can agree to disagree there, but regardless my stance has been that flooding our CB ranks with 4 1st/2nd year players would hinder the development of at least one of them, thus rendering at least one of our investments obsolete. Like I said previously, I would be all for signing a veteran presence to play our #2 while these guys develop behind him. That would be ideal IMO.

You are making the assumption that a rookie would step in and 1) out perform our 3 sophomores and 2) be good enough at the NFL level to fill our hole. Neither of those are certain.

I'm with you in that I identify our #2 CB slot as a weakness, and I am also with you that I would like to fill that hole. The problem is that filling that hole in the draft is a bad idea because that's one more player that needs developing as well as at least one player that would be left hanging, thus rendering one of our investments useless. It's never a good idea to throw out investments unless upside is no longer present.

Also, while you assume that a rookie CB can step in and fill our CB woes, I would argue that it is equally reasonable to assume one of our 3 sophomores can improve and fill that role too. Honestly, I think both opinions would be equally unreasonable because I don't pretend to know the future, which is why ideally I would like to sign a veteran.

Essentially, we agree that the hole needs filling, where we differ is how we should fill it. Drafting ANOTHER unknown is not the way to go.
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IDOG_det wrote:
I honestly wouldn't be upset if we draft 3 TE's

TE is the new QB Very Happy
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SadLionFan00


Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont stone me for this but

.....Cordarrelle Patterson?

I freaking love this dude as a prospect. Already an elite weapon with the ball in his hands, and has all the physical tools and skills one could ask for the be a great downfield threat. Him across from CJ with Broyles in the slot? Awesome. (talking long-term, here)
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Trestman is a great coach but Cutler is already a pouty overconfident poo flinger. What more can he do with him?
Get him to fling poo more accurately and make better decisions when flinging it?
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
Posts: 978
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
Dont stone me for this but

.....Cordarrelle Patterson?

I freaking love this dude as a prospect. Already an elite weapon with the ball in his hands, and has all the physical tools and skills one could ask for the be a great downfield threat. Him across from CJ with Broyles in the slot? Awesome. (talking long-term, here)

That would be an interesting pick. If Jockel, Fisher, Ansah and Jordan are all gone I wouldn't be surprised if he was the pick. Given the lack of elite talent in this draft, I would be oddly okay with it.
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IDOG_det wrote:
I honestly wouldn't be upset if we draft 3 TE's

TE is the new QB Very Happy
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LionsGM


Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 2819
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
LionsGM wrote:
To exclude CB from our list of needs in favor of a players like Chris Greenwood, Jonte Green, or Bill Bentley is irresponsible, borderline cretinus and inexcusable to put it kindly.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I never said it wasn't a need
If it's a need, and you have a chance to eliminate that need with stud in the draft who may be BPA when you select, then you do that and continue to develop those other guys behind him and Houston.

Well first, I don't believe there to be a stud CB in this draft. We can agree to disagree there, but regardless my stance has been that flooding our CB ranks with 4 1st/2nd year players would hinder the development of at least one of them, thus rendering at least one of our investments obsolete. Like I said previously, I would be all for signing a veteran presence to play our #2 while these guys develop behind him. That would be ideal IMO.

You are making the assumption that a rookie would step in and 1) out perform our 3 sophomores and 2) be good enough at the NFL level to fill our hole. Neither of those are certain.

I'm with you in that I identify our #2 CB slot as a weakness, and I am also with you that I would like to fill that hole. The problem is that filling that hole in the draft is a bad idea because that's one more player that needs developing as well as at least one player that would be left hanging, thus rendering one of our investments useless. It's never a good idea to throw out investments unless upside is no longer present.

Also, while you assume that a rookie CB can step in and fill our CB woes, I would argue that it is equally reasonable to assume one of our 3 sophomores can improve and fill that role too. Honestly, I think both opinions would be equally unreasonable because I don't pretend to know the future, which is why ideally I would like to sign a veteran.

Essentially, we agree that the hole needs filling, where we differ is how we should fill it. Drafting ANOTHER unknown is not the way to go.


When you draft players in the first and second round, the 'growth' process you speak of pales in comparison to that of the mid-late round picks at CB that we currently have on our roster. You don't wait until a player proves in year 3 of his development to decide to draft a better player, which it seems to be what you're clamoring for. You are correct in that we don't know what the future holds, but we don't need a crystal ball to see that jonte green, Chris greenwood and bill Bentley currently aren't #1 cornerbacks and likely won't be next year either.

We're not 'giving up' on those guys because we draft a top flight CB, they can still develop. Players don't play 100% of the snaps and every player will have an opportunity to get on the field and make plays. Healthy competition is the best course of development and you find out who your best players are that way.

Bottom line is, we need a #1 cornerback this year, just like we needed one last year and the year before that and about 10 years prior to that.

As a matter of fact, if the Lions don't address the cornerback position in the first two rounds of the draft or sign a starting CB, this team is going NOWHERE fast.
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LionsGM


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
LionsGM wrote:
We have One (1), that has proved he can play in the NFL at a high level. The others have not, nor have they shown any signs of being able to be more than marinate in a pool of bottom feeders at this point with an outside shot at becoming a decent special teamer and one that may have a future at Nickelback if he stays healthy and gets a couple more seasons under his belt.

To exclude CB from our list of needs in favor of a players like Chris Greenwood, Jonte Green, or Bill Bentley is irresponsible, borderline cretinus and inexcusable to put it kindly.

I don't necessarily disagree - I think that CB is absolutely a need - but if we're going to disregard Greenwood, Green and Bentley based on what they've shown on the field, shouldn't we also disregard Reiff? Should we enter the draft feeling as if we need 2 OTs, despite the fact that Reiff will almost certainly fill one of those positions?

I don't think it's that easy (both ways). We shouldn't assume that Greenwood, Green and Bentley will solidify the position, but they shouldn't be completely disregarded either. The coaches need to trust their evaluation of those players, in both practice and in games, and determine if an available prospect will likely to be a better option.


I actually felt Reiff played admirably in his limited playing time and I really like his potential as a starter heading into this season. He held his own in limited playing time and handled his responsibilities like a pro. He didn't get embarrassed like Jonte Green or Bill Bentley. Both of those guys got undressed on numerous occasions and each occasionally made an NFL caliber play to give the impression they each carried something more than a pulse.

Counting on Bentley or Green or Greenwood to be your starter is as bad an idea is expecting Derrick Williams to be your starter his sophomore year after what we saw from him his rookie year.
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Maverick12


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
Dont stone me for this but

.....Cordarrelle Patterson?

I freaking love this dude as a prospect. Already an elite weapon with the ball in his hands, and has all the physical tools and skills one could ask for the be a great downfield threat. Him across from CJ with Broyles in the slot? Awesome. (talking long-term, here)


Joeckel, Fisher, and Milliner would all have to be off the board before I even gave it any consideration. Even in that scenario, give me Warmack, Ansah, Star, Floyd, or even Cooper over him. Now in a trade down, everything changes and I guess I wouldn't dislike it depending on the deal we get.

Honestly, if we're taking a WR in the first round, give me Tavon. I know some people don't like his "diva" attitude(although I haven't seen it), but he's without question the best playmaker in this draft. Let's say we sign DHB for cheap and put him at the #2 spot opposite Calvin. Then have Austin/Broyles/Bush as complementary pieces in the slot and backfield.

That's a scary offense. Shocked
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
The Lions board is developed as are most with multiple criteria.

Well, Mayhew and Schwartz have stated otherwise and it passes the eye test so I will take their word for it.

It is your right not to believe what is clear as the nose on your face.
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LionsGM


Joined: 27 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
The Lions board is developed as are most with multiple criteria.

Well, Mayhew and Schwartz have stated otherwise and it passes the eye test so I will take their word for it.

It is your right not to believe what is clear as the nose on your face.


Do you believe that BPA is strictly based on a talent viewpoint and nothing else ?
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsGM wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
LionsGM wrote:
We have One (1), that has proved he can play in the NFL at a high level. The others have not, nor have they shown any signs of being able to be more than marinate in a pool of bottom feeders at this point with an outside shot at becoming a decent special teamer and one that may have a future at Nickelback if he stays healthy and gets a couple more seasons under his belt.

To exclude CB from our list of needs in favor of a players like Chris Greenwood, Jonte Green, or Bill Bentley is irresponsible, borderline cretinus and inexcusable to put it kindly.

I don't necessarily disagree - I think that CB is absolutely a need - but if we're going to disregard Greenwood, Green and Bentley based on what they've shown on the field, shouldn't we also disregard Reiff? Should we enter the draft feeling as if we need 2 OTs, despite the fact that Reiff will almost certainly fill one of those positions?

I don't think it's that easy (both ways). We shouldn't assume that Greenwood, Green and Bentley will solidify the position, but they shouldn't be completely disregarded either. The coaches need to trust their evaluation of those players, in both practice and in games, and determine if an available prospect will likely to be a better option.


I actually felt Reiff played admirably in his limited playing time and I really like his potential as a starter heading into this season. He held his own in limited playing time and handled his responsibilities like a pro. He didn't get embarrassed like Jonte Green or Bill Bentley. Both of those guys got undressed on numerous occasions and each occasionally made an NFL caliber play to give the impression they each carried something more than a pulse.

Counting on Bentley or Green or Greenwood to be your starter is as bad an idea is expecting Derrick Williams to be your starter his sophomore year after what we saw from him his rookie year.


I understand what you're saying and I certainly wouldn't be upset if the Lions drafted a CB early in the draft. I would have preferred they sign a veteran in free agency but it is what it is.

It's my feeling that CB is one of the toughest positions to play well in football. As such it takes most prospects longer to develop. When I look through the different threads I don't see fans of many teams that are totally happy with the corner play on their team. There are very few elite players at the position.

I can see both sides of the argument and I'm not certain either are wrong because there are different ways to construct a team.

I think when it comes time for the Lions to select a player its really going to boil down to how confident Mayhew is in his prior draft selections.

I think the Lions will have improved play from the safeties this year if Delmas can manage to stay healthy and that's part of the equation as well.

I could very well be wrong but the current unproven players at least have had a training camp and a year of study which is at least something.

They are in an interesting predicament though. They have some unproven players back there and they have lost the DT depth and it remains to be seen if the DE's are an improvement over Avril. So much of what they do defensively depends on pressure that if it isn't generated the secondary gets raped.

For that reason we may see them draft a highly graded defensive back or they may choose to go after DE's and go forward with those unproven corners.

I think its one of the most interesting draft day strategies for the Lions this year. Regardless how it plays out I would feel much more comfortable had they signed a veteran CB.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
Dont stone me for this but

.....Cordarrelle Patterson?

I freaking love this dude as a prospect. Already an elite weapon with the ball in his hands, and has all the physical tools and skills one could ask for the be a great downfield threat. Him across from CJ with Broyles in the slot? Awesome. (talking long-term, here)
I'd love to get him. Maybe not at #5, but if we trade down I'd love to get him, even if we only trade down a few spots.
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LionsFTW


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
LionsGM wrote:
We have One (1), that has proved he can play in the NFL at a high level. The others have not, nor have they shown any signs of being able to be more than marinate in a pool of bottom feeders at this point with an outside shot at becoming a decent special teamer and one that may have a future at Nickelback if he stays healthy and gets a couple more seasons under his belt.

To exclude CB from our list of needs in favor of a players like Chris Greenwood, Jonte Green, or Bill Bentley is irresponsible, borderline cretinus and inexcusable to put it kindly.

I don't necessarily disagree - I think that CB is absolutely a need - but if we're going to disregard Greenwood, Green and Bentley based on what they've shown on the field, shouldn't we also disregard Reiff? Should we enter the draft feeling as if we need 2 OTs, despite the fact that Reiff will almost certainly fill one of those positions?

I don't think it's that easy (both ways). We shouldn't assume that Greenwood, Green and Bentley will solidify the position, but they shouldn't be completely disregarded either. The coaches need to trust their evaluation of those players, in both practice and in games, and determine if an available prospect will likely to be a better option.
Greenwood hasn't seen the field, and Bentley got lit up for the better part of 3 games.

Reiff shined in his only start of the season, against JJ Watt of all people.


Watt had 3 sacks against us. Also 5 hurries (season high) 2 batted balls, and 5 stops.

But he rushes from the Ds left side, so it was Gosder who got used like a dirty rubber. Not Reiff. He got lucky and didn't face up against that beast.
I just watched that game last night, and talked about it in the Anything thread.

Watt rushed from both sides in that game, not sure if he's done that all season long, but Reiff matched up against Watt quite a few times and didn't allow a single pressure from Watt.


That's a great accomplishment stoning a guy of Watts caliber in a game that he absolutely dominated. You count how many snaps he took from that side?
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RyanFuller003


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
Dont stone me for this but

.....Cordarrelle Patterson?

I freaking love this dude as a prospect. Already an elite weapon with the ball in his hands, and has all the physical tools and skills one could ask for the be a great downfield threat. Him across from CJ with Broyles in the slot? Awesome. (talking long-term, here)
I'd love to get him. Maybe not at #5, but if we trade down I'd love to get him, even if we only trade down a few spots.

He's one of those guys that's going to go somewhere where we won't have a shot at him. We'll either have to take a tremendous reach and draft him at 5, or hope beyond all hope that he can slip to 36 (or at least somewhere low enough to where we can reasonably trade up for him, like #25 or so).

More likely they'll wind up with Justin Hunter or Robert Woods if they're intent on drafting a receiver.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
The Lions board is developed as are most with multiple criteria.

Well, Mayhew and Schwartz have stated otherwise and it passes the eye test so I will take their word for it.

It is your right not to believe what is clear as the nose on your face.


All they have stated is they draft BPA. They have never discussed their definition of BPA. He has further stated they dont draft specifically for need but they draft the BPA for the team. There is plenty of evidence that need factors into their definition of BPA as does scheme fit, versatility, etc. that's why they said best player available for the team.

As for your last sentence I hope that makes you feel better. Clearly you have issues your unable to suppress. Good luck.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFTW wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
LionsGM wrote:
We have One (1), that has proved he can play in the NFL at a high level. The others have not, nor have they shown any signs of being able to be more than marinate in a pool of bottom feeders at this point with an outside shot at becoming a decent special teamer and one that may have a future at Nickelback if he stays healthy and gets a couple more seasons under his belt.

To exclude CB from our list of needs in favor of a players like Chris Greenwood, Jonte Green, or Bill Bentley is irresponsible, borderline cretinus and inexcusable to put it kindly.

I don't necessarily disagree - I think that CB is absolutely a need - but if we're going to disregard Greenwood, Green and Bentley based on what they've shown on the field, shouldn't we also disregard Reiff? Should we enter the draft feeling as if we need 2 OTs, despite the fact that Reiff will almost certainly fill one of those positions?

I don't think it's that easy (both ways). We shouldn't assume that Greenwood, Green and Bentley will solidify the position, but they shouldn't be completely disregarded either. The coaches need to trust their evaluation of those players, in both practice and in games, and determine if an available prospect will likely to be a better option.
Greenwood hasn't seen the field, and Bentley got lit up for the better part of 3 games.

Reiff shined in his only start of the season, against JJ Watt of all people.


Watt had 3 sacks against us. Also 5 hurries (season high) 2 batted balls, and 5 stops.

But he rushes from the Ds left side, so it was Gosder who got used like a dirty rubber. Not Reiff. He got lucky and didn't face up against that beast.
I just watched that game last night, and talked about it in the Anything thread.

Watt rushed from both sides in that game, not sure if he's done that all season long, but Reiff matched up against Watt quite a few times and didn't allow a single pressure from Watt.


That's a great accomplishment stoning a guy of Watts caliber in a game that he absolutely dominated. You count how many snaps he took from that side?
I did not, but they definitely matched up enough to be impressed with how Reiff handled him, while Goz on the other hand was pathetic.
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