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Hoping Jarvis is average
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rollins


Joined: 19 Dec 2010
Posts: 643
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
rollins wrote:
Ward4HOF wrote:
kysteeler wrote:
No question he will be there at 17, look how hard Damontre Moore fell with a 4.8 40, a 4.92 will surely put Jones in the bottom half of the 1st.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8373/jarvis-jones


We can only hope!! He is such a better prospect than Moore, IMO. If we somehow land Jones, I'd be ecstatic, personally.

Alas, there is NO way he sides past the Saints, IMO, with their switch to a 3-4. Unless, of course, Star Lotulelei somehow scares teams off until 15, then they'd be hard pressed not to take Star.

We are "doomed" where we are picking, I fear. My last mock I had us taking Cooper. I'd be "ok" with that, but certainly not what I'd like to happen. Jones is definitely at the top of my board for the Steelers, but can't for the life of see him being there...Dream draft?

1.17 -- Jarvis Jones
2.48 -- Justin Hunter/Eddie Lacy
3.79 -- Johnathan Franklin/Aaron Dobson

Then ILB, FS, SS, CB, OG/OT depth, in whatever order


I think NO would pick Jordan, Mingo, or Ansah over Jones. So I think it definitely is possible that he could be there for us.


Jordan and Ansah will be gone...and who would you pick, Mingo or Jones? I'll go with the slower guy that isn't useless in run support.


I mentioned earlier in this thread that I still have Jones as my number 1 prospect in this draft regardless of position. In addition to that I am extremely low on Mingo. My top 5 3-4 OLB list looks completely different than anyone else's that I've seen.

My top 5
1. Jarvis Jones
2. Trevardo Williams (guys a monster and noone is giving him his credit)
3. Jamie Collins
4. Ezekiel Ansah
5. Dion Jordan
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jcm412


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 3435
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point I am very causous of J.Jones . Lets look at all the pros and cons.
In my mind you have to have a lot of sack to take a 1st rd on this kid.

Cons
1. Health Concern
2. Slow
3. Stiff Hips
4. Can't play the run
5. Did poorly in LB drills
6. Undersized

Pros
1. Good pass rusher
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3rivers


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

last year the draft gifted the FO 66 and 76. Maybe this year Jones will fall? It makes the FO look better than they are Rolling Eyes
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Gatoradus


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be ultimately pissed if steelers grab jones in 1st.

However... I doubt they will.

Its not worilds they are high on, its Adrian Robinson BTW.

Receiver is our biggest need, likely will have to double-dip in this position.

Many claims Jones is a top-10, 15 talent however they forgot that he's a top-10, 15 IN thisdraft class. In other years he'd be a top 30 pick. If we were to go with one, i'd like Quarteus Smith of Western Kentucky. An athlete who is very instinctive when attacking ball carrier and gets to QB fast. He should be available in 5th
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Le-Morte-dJames


Joined: 27 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't be against the pick especially at 17 but watching film on Jones, I wasn't nearly as impressed as I thought I'd be. His sack production is phenomenal but alot of the sacks wouldn't happen in the NFL. Many of his sacks come from extended plays where the QB just held on to the ball for way too long. He's more of finesse rusher than power, which is fine, but his explosion off the edge isn't exactly that much above average. And facing the run, yeah he isn't even average for that and gets covered up way too easy. I still have him rated over some other players that are options for us at 17, but I need to watch more on Jones. I feel like I'm overrating him for the hype and not the skill set
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JDLefebvre


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3rivers wrote:
last year the draft gifted the FO 66 and 76. Maybe this year Jones will fall? It makes the FO look better than they are Rolling Eyes



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jcm412


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Le-Morte-dJames wrote:
I wouldn't be against the pick especially at 17 but watching film on Jones, I wasn't nearly as impressed as I thought I'd be. His sack production is phenomenal but alot of the sacks wouldn't happen in the NFL. Many of his sacks come from extended plays where the QB just held on to the ball for way too long. He's more of finesse rusher than power, which is fine, but his explosion off the edge isn't exactly that much above average. And facing the run, yeah he isn't even average for that and gets covered up way too easy. I still have him rated over some other players that are options for us at 17, but I need to watch more on Jones. I feel like I'm overrating him for the hype and not the skill set


This is the exact same thing that I see when I watch him play.

So many people put down Moore bc of his 40 and poor combine but put on the tape. His motor and how fast he plays put Jones to shame.
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SteelProven


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jones on film shows his skill set isn't completely refined, so his strength a POA in the run can be help with some coaching. The Steelers need a pass rusher and as long as Jones shows effort aginst the run I'm good with that.

My biggest concern is one I mentioned before and that's age. Jarvis Jones signs a 4 year deal at the end of that deal he'll be 28 yrs old heading into his 29th bday. Meaning just into two contracts the Steelers could be in the same position as they were with Harrison. Jones will be 24 yrs old this season.

The one plus I believe you really have to consider is the read option offense. J. Jones quickness out side of his strength will be a asset. He's very good at making plays through trash. He identifies the ball carrier and makes plays.

40 times for me aren't highly valued when it comes to my evalutions of players in the front 7. I'm more concerned with there splits and explosion drills.
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Gatoradus


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and jones didn't show the explosiveness I want to see in a pass-rusher. Heck Jarvis Jones is in a mold of Bruce Irvin and Irvin has a lot more to offer in pass-rushing, so...

I can think of 5 pass-rushers who are considered as top-5 pass-rushers but solely based on their reputation rather over the skillsets/production.

This is a down year for pass-rushers; there's more better pass rushing specialists they are either; from smaller school, didn't produced enough, or got hurt and didn't play enough. Pick one and that's likely one of flaw we will pick up when drafting a pass-rusher.

I think some people overlooked few things; while worilds is far from being a complete pass-rusher, if becoming a full-time he'll give us 7-9 sacks, easy. I do not think steelers will even be high on pass-rushers (maybe for depth, that's it) as I already know they have such expectations for their UDFA Adrian Robinson who they at one point felt like was good enough to start but has to know the playbook first. Hopefully this is the year.

I do see a 50/50 between worilds and robinson.

I, like everybody at one point was high on Jarvis Jones but nothing stood out, not even his best-asset which is getting to QB.
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armsteeld


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce Irvin has tremendous explosion! Horrible comparison.
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Ward4HOF


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jcm412 wrote:
At this point I am very causous of J.Jones . Lets look at all the pros and cons.
In my mind you have to have a lot of sack to take a 1st rd on this kid.

Cons
1. Health Concern
2. Slow
3. Stiff Hips
4. Can't play the run
5. Did poorly in LB drills
6. Undersized

Pros
1. Good pass rusher


I'm not saying Jones is a can;t miss prospect, but I'll take him over Vacarro, Mingo, Rhodes, Moore or whoever else is left at 17. And the Jones I've seen play this year would wreak hovoc in the NFL. He had some of his best performances against top SEC teams.

And to answer your list of six up there:

1. Cleared completely of the Spinal thing...what other health concerns, everything else has been minor.

2. Suggs ran in the same range...just saying.

3. I've heard the same, so I'll conceed that point

4. This is where I take the most issue. He's great at getting off blocks, commits 100%, and makes solid tackles, and causes fumbles, to boot. So I'd say he is just fine in the run game.

5. Poorly in LB drills vs. stellar LB play on the field...I'll take the latter.

6. 6'3" 240+ is undersized? Comparing him to Woodley, sure, but nothing wrong with 240+, IMO.

And you forgot some positives:

1. Good play recognition.

2. Great motor.

3. Fantastic hand usage.

4. Sheds blocks.

Anyway, jcm, I agree more often than not with you on most things, but disagree with your assessment of Jones.

Doesn't much matter nayway, no way he makes it to us at 17.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know there are people here that obviously know a lot more about Jones than I do but after reading some of the thoughts, here are mine:

We can agree that Jones isn't a 'can't miss' player but has high potential.
We can agree that it could be justified that he is picked @ #17.
We can agree that he has his Pro's and Con's.

What I don't agree with is taking a guy that is KNOWN to not be a 'can't miss' player. If I had to decide between Jones and another player at another position, even if it's Eifert, that I feel is going to have a bigger impact in the long term or is closer to being a can't miss player, I'm not taking Jones. That really is my biggest problem with him is that we're all going on what we believe he'll turn out to be. Tape or not, the tape doesn't impress me enough to gamble. I don't even think Jones will be there for us and frankly, I hope Jones and Moore are both selected before #17.
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jcm412


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
jcm412 wrote:
At this point I am very causous of J.Jones . Lets look at all the pros and cons.
In my mind you have to have a lot of sack to take a 1st rd on this kid.

Cons
1. Health Concern
2. Slow
3. Stiff Hips
4. Can't play the run
5. Did poorly in LB drills
6. Undersized

Pros
1. Good pass rusher


I'm not saying Jones is a can;t miss prospect, but I'll take him over Vacarro, Mingo, Rhodes, Moore or whoever else is left at 17. And the Jones I've seen play this year would wreak hovoc in the NFL. He had some of his best performances against top SEC teams.

And to answer your list of six up there:

1. Cleared completely of the Spinal thing...what other health concerns, everything else has been minor.

Now there may have been an update but from what I understand it is still a mixed bag from doctor to doctor.

2. Suggs ran in the same range...just saying.

I don't think 40 times are a huge deal. However, Suggs is also 260lbs.

3. I've heard the same, so I'll conceed that point

4. This is where I take the most issue. He's great at getting off blocks, commits 100%, and makes solid tackles, and causes fumbles, to boot. So I'd say he is just fine in the run game.

He had plenty of problems when teams ran right at him. He can not anchor and is not strong at POA. It is one of his major flaws.

5. Poorly in LB drills vs. stellar LB play on the field...I'll take the latter.

LB drills are designed to measure use of hip and change of direction. I can't say it was a huge weakness on tape but I was far from impressed in those areas.


6. 6'3" 240+ is undersized? Comparing him to Woodley, sure, but nothing wrong with 240+, IMO.

He is 6'2 and added 15lbs this offseason. So his playing weight is around 225-230. That is undersized.

And you forgot some positives:

1. Good play recognition.

2. Great motor.

3. Fantastic hand usage.

4. Sheds blocks.

Anyway, jcm, I agree more often than not with you on most things, but disagree with your assessment of Jones.

Doesn't much matter nayway, no way he makes it to us at 17.


See responses in quote. I'm on a phone so I can't bold.

I am not saying he is a bad player and I wouldn't be upset if we picked him. I am just pointing out that he has some major red flags and at this point I think it's far from a safe pick that many make it out to be.
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rollins


Joined: 19 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelProven wrote:
Jones on film shows his skill set isn't completely refined, so his strength a POA in the run can be help with some coaching. The Steelers need a pass rusher and as long as Jones shows effort aginst the run I'm good with that.

My biggest concern is one I mentioned before and that's age. Jarvis Jones signs a 4 year deal at the end of that deal he'll be 28 yrs old heading into his 29th bday. Meaning just into two contracts the Steelers could be in the same position as they were with Harrison. Jones will be 24 yrs old this season.

The one plus I believe you really have to consider is the read option offense. J. Jones quickness out side of his strength will be a asset. He's very good at making plays through trash. He identifies the ball carrier and makes plays.

40 times for me aren't highly valued when it comes to my evalutions of players in the front 7. I'm more concerned with there splits and explosion drills.


His age does not bother me at all. I look at it this way, if we were to draft him and sign him to a 4 year deal, we would most likely give him a contract extention after his 3rd year. At this time he would be close to turning 27. If we give him a 5 year deal he would finish that deal at close to 32 years old. At this point we would have 8 years of service from him and could reassess the situation. Even if we did not get another year out of him I would be happy with 8 years as long as they he was an impact player. I mean no one is complaining about Deebo who only started for 6 years.
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rollins


Joined: 19 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
and jones didn't show the explosiveness I want to see in a pass-rusher. Heck Jarvis Jones is in a mold of Bruce Irvin and Irvin has a lot more to offer in pass-rushing, so...

I can think of 5 pass-rushers who are considered as top-5 pass-rushers but solely based on their reputation rather over the skillsets/production.

This is a down year for pass-rushers; there's more better pass rushing specialists they are either; from smaller school, didn't produced enough, or got hurt and didn't play enough. Pick one and that's likely one of flaw we will pick up when drafting a pass-rusher.

I think some people overlooked few things; while worilds is far from being a complete pass-rusher, if becoming a full-time he'll give us 7-9 sacks, easy. I do not think steelers will even be high on pass-rushers (maybe for depth, that's it) as I already know they have such expectations for their UDFA Adrian Robinson who they at one point felt like was good enough to start but has to know the playbook first. Hopefully this is the year.

I do see a 50/50 between worilds and robinson.

I, like everybody at one point was high on Jarvis Jones but nothing stood out, not even his best-asset which is getting to QB.


Has there been actual confirmation that the bolded is true or is this just your opinion?

As far as Jones explosivness, he is explosive on tape and thats all I care about. Any Scout or GM worth anything will tell you that Pro Day results are there to either confirm what you already know or make you go back to the tape to check any concerns from Pro Day. And when you go back to the tape he is still explosive and quick.

The main thing everyone is missing is he probably has the best hand usage of any edge rusher which is his greatest asset. OL cannot block him if they cannot even get their hands on him.
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